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 Post subject: GD: DOJ system and strat
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 10:40 pm 


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last updated 03/01/06
see Valgar's post for Arcadia strat scan


GETTING POINTS


WHAT WE THINK WE KNOW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-every enemy is worth base*current combo
-every bee = base value*current combo*last factor
where :
last factor = 2 if you got all 10 bees of the current stage without dying inbetween

base value = 1000 in stage 1
base value in stage n+1 =
base value in stage n+1000 if you got a *2 in stage n

base value in stage n otherwise

-boss hit bonus = [ (stage + 2) * 100,000 ] (1+boss hit/200)
whether "stage" is the stage number whether you're in the 1st or 2nd loop

-maximum
If you take a bomb and it makes you have your maximum number of bombs, you enter in maximum mode until you bomb or die.
This mode grants you K*N points every seconds, where N is the maximum
size (maximum*1 if you just filled your bomb stock, *2 if it was already fiiled, N=N+1 each time you get a new bomb while in the same maximum)
If you no bomb no miss loop 1, you will have around 30 mil from the max bonus.
The maximum level starts at 1 and is incremented to a max of 3 every time you complete a level without dying.

-end of loop bonus
You get 10 millions for each ship in stock

WHAT WE DONT KNOW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does the maximum level change how many points you get?





RANK

WHAT WE THINK WE KNOW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rank is increased only by using hypers.
The rank increase is proportional to the number of hypers used at the same time.
Using the hyper item temporarily increases bullet speed and bullets number.
When the hyper item burns out, both speed and number of bullets drop, but to a value higher than it was before using hyper.
(contrary to what was previously assumed, bullet number doesn't go back to its base value either)

The only way to reduce rank is through (1) death or (2) using bombs.


If you suicide the best place is after the last bee. this way you still get the x2 on the last bee.
Don't do it with a hyper on or your bomb capacity won't increase.

WHAT WE DONT KNOW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The exact rank increase/decrease in terms of rank bar %




HYPER METER

WHAT WE THINK WE KNOW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The pink, vertical gauge on the information display is the hyper gauge. If this is filled, a hyper item will appear
from the top of the screen. The hyper item will disappear once it floats to the bottom of the screen and rebounds to
the top. There are three ways to fill the hyper gauge:
(1) maximize the GP meter,
(2) take a bee item while maintaining at least a 20-hit chain,
(3) apply the laser to a boss. (contrary to what was previously assumed, applying laser to anything other than a boss
doesn't seem to increase the hyper jauge)
(4) dying: instantly gives you 30% hyper jauge

How much does a bee fill the hyper meter?

20-39 hits will increase the hyper gauge by 3%,
40-59 hits will increase it by 6%,
and so forth until 200 hits or more, which will increase the gauge by 30%.

but if you're in hyper mode: nothing. look how the replay dudes start their hypers between 2 bees concentrations when possible.

WARNING:
When the hyper meter is full, it rolls over and any excess "meter potential" is lost.
A good example of that is on stage 1, if you don't make the first hyper appear before taking the 3rd bee.


WHAT WE DONT KNOW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




OTHER HYPER PROPERTIES

WHAT WE THINK WE KNOW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Features :
Multiple hyper items can be held in stock, but pressing the B button releases them all at once. Upon using the hyper
items during the stage trip, the ship is invincible for 80 frames and the laser's power increases by 25% for each
hyper used after the first. Upon using them during a boss battle, the ship is invincible for 120 frames and the
laser's power increases by 50% for each hyper used after the first.
If you have a hyper item in stock, make sure you use it before another one appears. If you use it while another the
hyper item is floating around, it will turn into a 10,000-point star. Remember to check the hyper gauge to prevent this from happening.

Hyper item appearance during boss battles :
Typically, if hyper gauges are filled during a boss battle,
the hyper items will be released in the next stage. They
can, however, be released during the battle if either (1)
if a bomb is used before a gauge is filled or (2) no bombs
are in stock.


WHAT WE DONT KNOW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





THE 2ND LOOP

WHAT WE THINK WE KNOW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Requirements: Any of the following :
- Deaths is Less than 2
- Less than 3 bombs used
- Get the *2 bee in 3 stages or more (ie. you can't die between collecting them)

Extends in the loop :
When you clear the loop, all your remaining ships are taken. You get one extend for each stage cleared, but nothing
for score. The stage4 cannon extend is still here.
Remaining bonus is stock ships * 10m in the 1st loop, *50m in 2nd loop.

WHAT WE DONT KNOW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




MISCELLANEOUS

WHAT WE THINK WE KNOW
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Collisions zones (see also Valgar's post)
Image

If you want to take a power-up while lasering, and not break your combo, point-blank your target (2 ships lengths away is ok).
example: the stage 2 mid-boss power-up

Use button C: a short C tap does wonders at controlling fire and not killing too many in one shot. examples:
*stage 1, after the tower, after the rows of mid-ships, to slowly destroy the 3 tanks on the left.
*stage 2, connecting after the first big tank.

Uncovering a bee with laser gives you 1 hit, but also can save your chain by refilling completely the combo meter (exemples: stage 5 2nd bee).

Likewise using the hyper refills completely the jauge (ex: before the stage 2 mid-boss).


WHAT WE DONT KNOW
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




*************************************************************************************************************************
STAGES
-----STAGE 1---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do i get two hypers from the 1st boss?

You have to destroy the side parts while they're spinning. Each side part has a separate (invisible) life bar
, but destroying one automatically destroys the other.
Once you destroy them the boss gets angry, so it's better to get the core red before finishing the parts.
Get both parts red, so that you can aim at any of them while they're spinning.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----STAGE 4---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do i get the 1-UP?

You have to destroy the side parts of the first big cannon before destroying the main part.
You can use a bomb, but if the bomb destroys any of the 3 parts you won't get it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*************************************************************************************************************************

credits:
BER, mode7, ignocoscente, J2D, valgar, various click stick and shmups posters i forgot
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Last edited by chtimi-CLA on Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:43 pm, edited 14 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:06 pm 


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Is there any sort of permanent rank increase after using a Hyper, or are the effects only immediate (or cancelable via using a bomb or dying)? If there is a permanent rank increase, does it only affect enemy shots (as the Hyper does), or does it also affect enemy health, etc.?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:14 pm 


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Number of bullets and bullet speed increases with Hyper usage, and is directly proportional to the amount of Hypers used at once. Once they Hyper wears off, the amount of bullets reset back down to regular levels, but the speed of the bullets remains the same.

In short, Hypering increases the speed of bullets permanently, and bullet amount temporarily.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:18 pm 


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What about the part above which says that dying or bombing slows the bullets back down? Is that effect only partial?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:23 pm 


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yes, only partial as far as speed is concerned, that's what the first quote meant if it wasn't clear.
you see the rank meter that you can set in simulation mode? it governs the speed of bullets. bombing reduces it slightly and dying much more (at least 2-3 times more).
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:38 pm 


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I think rank is somewhat affected by survival time as well, so even if there is a temporary method of decrease, the rank will quite quickly work it's way back up to regular levels. If you are playing for score, then bombing and dying are obviously bad ways of decreasing rank. IIRC the only way to make rank somewhat manageable is to only use one Hyper at a time, but there are sections that warrant stocked Hypers, such as the tank hangars at the end of stage 2.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:45 pm 


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bad ways yes, but if you need them the least damaging place to do so score wise is at bosses.
anyway i always get hit by the angry phase of stage 3 boss last pattern..
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:11 am 


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Oh God, I hate that pattern. I think the trick is to stay wide enough to exploit larger gaps in the pattern, but close enough to the boss to keep applying Laser to it. If you stay out wide, you can always destroy one or two of those large laser canisters the boss drops, saving the hassle of being overrun with aimed bullets.

Cave really threw in a lot of the overlapping bullet patterns in Daioujou, and it's those kinds of patterns that I hate the most :?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:04 am 


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According to what 8.5 says on the HS thread, apparently chaining well and not dying raise rank as well...yeesh, this thing's starting to sound more like Garegga...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:24 am 


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BulletMagnet wrote:
According to what 8.5 says on the HS thread, apparently chaining well and not dying raise rank as well...yeesh, this thing's starting to sound more like Garegga...


Well, Cave did say in an interview that Garegga was their inspiration ;)

On Topic:
A lot of things raise the rank: chaining, survival time, Hypers, enemy destruction. I suspect that incrementing the bee medals' base value (through collecting all ten in a stage without dying) also increases rank. The best method I've found is to first learn to chain without Hypers, and then drop a couple into your route here and there. Once you gradually build up a good Hyper-based chain route, the rank increases should become more manageable.

Bosses still pose problems though, especially if you're playing the score way by Hypering bosses for high hit counts and extra Hypers for the start of the next stage. If you're playing for survival, then try to conserve the Hypers you carry. The only thing dfferent about attacking a boss for score or for survival is the amount of points you get at the end of the stage.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:35 am 


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Icarus wrote:
Well, Cave did say in an interview that Garegga was their inspiration ;)

Yep, I can see some liberal sharing of sadism towards their players going on. :P

I guess I do have something to be thankful for in being a lousy shmupper...since I'm bad at chaining and whatnot, at least DOJ will wait slightly longer before toasting me to a crisp. :P
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 8:55 am 


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Icarus wrote:
A lot of things raise the rank: chaining, survival time, Hypers, enemy destruction. I suspect that incrementing the bee medals' base value (through collecting all ten in a stage without dying) also increases rank.

i'm not sure at all about that, the only thing that i'm sure increases rank is hyper usage. survival time only increases rank in that you don't decrease it by dying. i could be wrong of course.

also and independently, during hyper the health of some enemies (but not all) is increased, like those mid-ships in stage 3 that fire pink and blue, the ones that sometimes appear in groups of 3 and are vaguely egg-shaped. why some and not others?

another question, about maximum: did you notice your maximum flag says "maximum *N level P" where P = 1,2 or 3? N is the number of extra bombs, but what is that level P? does it have an effect on the point rate?

other bonus questions:
-what are the loop requirements?
-when are extra lives granted in the 2nd loop?
-by what amount, in units of the rank bar in simulation mode (let's say the bar is 100%), does using one hyper increase rank? how much does bombing reduce it? and dying? does rank max out at 100%?
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 9:37 am 



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chtimi wrote:
-when are extra lives granted in the 2nd loop?


The 1up in stage 4. There are no points based extra lives in the 2nd loop. Well, more specifically, there are only two points based extra lives in the entire game, when you reach them is entirely up to you. However, I suspect you won't be qualifying for the 2nd loop if you don't get both 1ups in the first loop.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:11 am 


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no, there are other extends in the 2nd loop.
just look at the ingame super replay, the player has 1 life entering 2-1 and 6 entering 2-5.
i initially thought they were granted 10 and 30 millions into the 2nd loop, but no.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 2:26 pm 


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chtimi wrote:
no, there are other extends in the 2nd loop.
just look at the ingame super replay, the player has 1 life entering 2-1 and 6 entering 2-5.
i initially thought they were granted 10 and 30 millions into the 2nd loop, but no.


No, that's because the game snatches all your Extends for the start of the second loop, making you play without a single life to start, and then giving you back an Extend every time you complete a stage.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:39 pm 


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so it was every stage? that's why he ends up with one more life than in the 1st loop then..
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 10:41 pm 



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Ah whoops, I was thinking black label, sorry.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:38 pm 


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copypasted from the HS:

i have a question, how the fuck does one achieve to get 4 hypers on stage 2? specifically, how could you release a hyper, not at the second to last bee of stage 1, but on the one before that? then you could hyper the boss and the jauge will be at 200%, like in the superplay? i dont understand, i lazer every big guy, and take a path, whil not the exact same, simmilar to the superplay guy in terms of bee catching, so i should have the same amount of hypers, meh.


also:

"-every enemy is worth base*current combo "


this is not really accurate.

you cant look at your chain and tell how much you're scoring, because hypers challenge that.

let's say that you hyper and achieve a combo of 300, it will be much less points than if you achieved a combo of 300 without hypers.

i dont know how much a hyper raises chain count, but let's say for clarity sake it doubles it.

so you hyper, do a combo of 200 hits, your chain count will be doubled, at 400.

but your score will NOT be doubled, only increased by about 20% (for each hyper used)

if you do a combo worth 100000 without hypers, when you do this same combo with 2 hypers in stock, score will be around 140000, with 5 hypers it will be around 200000.

of course, there is another benefit of hypers besides chains, that is bee value.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:42 pm 


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also, the fact that bees arent worth shit if you dont chain (so no easy 1 ups for non score people) the fact that the maximmum bonus is shit if you cant survive the first loop without bombing, as it only gets interesting if you do that, makes me want to reffer to DOJ as "THE bitch"

also, the higher the rank, the more bullets, even when not hypering, just watch the superplay at stage 4 (the dvd, not the simulation mode one, as he dies in stage 2 to decrease rank)
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:08 am 


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The vagrant wrote:
copypasted from the HS:

i have a question, how the fuck does one achieve to get 4 hypers on stage 2? specifically, how could you release a hyper, not at the second to last bee of stage 1, but on the one before that? then you could hyper the boss and the jauge will be at 200%, like in the superplay? i dont understand, i lazer every big guy, and take a path, whil not the exact same, simmilar to the superplay guy in terms of bee catching, so i should have the same amount of hypers, meh.

copypasted from the HS too:

i don't hyper the 1st boss, i use only one hyper in stage 1 (650-670 combo) so i get to the boss with 2 hypers then +2 with the parts, not the highest scoring strat but it's reliable.
i don't know your stage 1 strat, but do you care to take the 3rd bee after making the 1st hyper appear?
The vagrant wrote:
also:

"-every enemy is worth base*current combo "


this is not really accurate.
..
let's say that you hyper and achieve a combo of 300, it will be much less points than if you achieved a combo of 300 without hypers.
..

i don't see a contradiction, since to get 300 hit without hypering you had to kill many more enemies, so you got 300*En + 299*En-1 + ... while with a hyper you got 300*En + 298*En-2 + ...

The vagrant wrote:
also, the fact that bees arent worth shit if you dont chain (so no easy 1 ups for non score people) the fact that the maximmum bonus is shit if you cant survive the first loop without bombing, as it only gets interesting if you do that, makes me want to reffer to DOJ as "THE bitch"

yeah pretty much, any clue how much you get for a simple *2 maximum that lasts all of stage 3? (i should play no bullets mode and shoot nothing to find out if you don't). even keeping your max to stage 4 is hard.

The vagrant wrote:
also, the higher the rank, the more bullets, even when not hypering, just watch the superplay at stage 4 (the dvd, not the simulation mode one, as he dies in stage 2 to decrease rank)

really? maybe the common wisdom was wrong on this.
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 Post subject: Re: GD: DOJ system and strat
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:10 am 


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chtimi wrote:

getting points:
-every enemy is worth base*current combo
-every bee = base value*current combo*last factor
where :
last factor = 2 if you got all 10 bees of the current stage without dying inbetween

base value = 1000 in stage 1
base value in stage n+1 =
base value in stage n+1000 if you got a *2 in stage n

base value in stage n otherwise

-boss hit bonus = boss base value (1+boss hit/200?)
where boss base value= 300,000 and +100 000 on each stage




....How am I supposed to make sense of this equation?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:17 am 


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if you don't understand maybe you could ask a question on a specific part instead of whining :roll:
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:05 pm 


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ok ive put DOJ in just to try this stuff, one max bomb is shit, two max bombs is shit x2, and 3 max bombs is shit x3, which becomes a bit more interesting.

if you no bomb no miss loop 1, you will have around 30 mil from the max bonus, almost nothing in other words.
every bomb adds a value of 1 to it, so if you take 5 bombs, it will increase x5 times faster.

if you no bomb no miss loop 1, at the end it will display "max bomb x3 lvl 6" which seems kinda jerky and i dont wnt to ressearch into it, but yea, in loop 2, the max bonus increases very friggin fast.
max value is max bomb x3 lvl 10, which is like max 1 x 13, in loop 2, its alot.
but lets be frank, nooooone of us is ever going to get that.
im taking a break from DOJ, just modded my xbox which means i have a load of games to play.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:10 am 


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thanks i had completely forgotten about my maximum experiments.
yeah potential 30m isn't worth the rank pain since i can't even no bomb to stage5.
i think you mixed the X and the lv in your post.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:22 pm 


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first post edited and organized
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:13 pm 



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Hitboxs and some other stuff (don't know what it is) from Arcadia.

http://cowboy.ikaruga.co.uk/DOJscan.jpg
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:51 am 


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thanks valgar. anyone wants to translate this?
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:35 pm 



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I think, boss hit bonus = 3000*nHIT


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:03 am 


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shuppon wrote:
I think, boss hit bonus = 3000*nHIT


hm, i'm pretty sure it goes:

-boss hit bonus = [ (stage + 2) * 100,000 ] (1+boss hit/200)
whether "stage" is the stage number whether you're in the 1st or 2nd loop
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2005 2:55 pm 


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about the 4st boss:
Since you want to milk the tight drones pattern with a hyper, it is annoying to have this hyper at the beginning of the fight, because then you have to survive without bombing until then (what gets me is the mixed small/medium bullets white spirals pattern).
Unless you have an almost full hyper jauge waiting after that, in which case you can use the first hyper (and bombs) to survive. To have this jauge, you need to take the 2 last bees while in a combo, but to do this you have to pick the last bomb, which is useless unless you plan to beat the boss without bombing in the first place.
Hm.. i think i'm going to bomb (if the stock is full) before the 2nd cannon section to lower rank a bit, so that i can pick the 2 last bees and have a reliable chance at milking the drones pattern. (my current pattern is not to pick the last bees and have the extra bomb float around the boss like on stage 2).

i don't even try to chain st4 after the initial section. i only combo up to be the first bee of the rails section, at 4000*600 which is a nice 2,400,000 bee without too much risk. after that, stage 4 is survival only until the boss, there are far to many combo holes to bridge.
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