Extremely popular shmups you don't "get"

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:29 am

Oh yeah, I totally forgot about this one: Thunderforce VI. Having played it, I was put off by a whole bunch of design issues.

Post by **spadgy** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:36 am

Ceph wrote:
Extremely popular shmups you don't "get"

spadgy wrote: For me, I can't get on with the Fantasy Star games...
I never looked at the Fanatsy Star games this way.
(I suppose you meant Star Soldier?)

Ok - not extremely popular. Just popular. there was certainly a lot of love when the recent PS2 comp came out.

And I love Star Soldier!

Ceph · Post by **Ceph** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:46 am

Since this topic is about shmups, I thought you had mistakenly written "Fanatsy Star", while you really meant something else.

Post by **spadgy** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:19 pm

Dah! I mean Fanatsy Zone!

I'm an idiot!

clp · Post by **clp** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:27 pm

Udderdude wrote:
clp wrote:
Ruldra wrote:ESPGaluda

It's a fine game and loved by everyone, but for some reason I just don't enjoy it.
your not alone there i had it 1cced it sold it straight away , i would give a left arm for a true esprade sequel .
ESPGaluda arrange mode on the PS2 is pretty close, it combines the scoring system of Galuda and ESP Ra.de, plus it's also harder with much more firepower coming at you.

true but still has the horrible theme and sub par trance music . It also has that mushi quality of giant bullet bilge of one colour on screen .

ZOM · Post by **ZOM** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:48 pm

spadgy wrote:Dah! I mean Fanatsy Zone!

I'm an idiot!

I love Fanatsy Zone too!

Taylor · Post by **Taylor** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:58 pm

Udderdude wrote:Raizing/8ing games have a lot of counterintuitive stuff, but for people who want something different, it's definitely a good choice. The only beef I have is that it gives no indication it's that sort of game. Another one for people who are tired of everything else in shmups, and want something more esoteric, I suppose.

Well saying the rank system exists would kind of defeat its primary purpose, which is not a gameplay mechanic, but an overzealous player-cycling one. For example the reason the rank does not reset on game over, is so it gets through more people when the machine is busy – as soon as the players know about this it produces the opposite effect as they wait for attract mode to loop or turn it off (which is why Batrider turns on at max rank).

Also, before you all hate on me. I’m not saying the mechanic doesn’t take on a higher gameplay mantle once exposed, deconstructed and manipulated.

MR_Soren · Post by **MR_Soren** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:24 pm

For STGT08, I played Battle Garegga during the practice week. I was terrible at the game, but I thought it was fantastic. I'm perfectly capable of enjoying a game I suck at.

Einhander is probably the most popular shmup that I don't care much for. It just never does anything for me. However, that game seems more popular outside of the shmup community. I don't hear much praise for it here.

evil_ash_xero · Post by **evil_ash_xero** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:48 pm

MR_Soren wrote:For STGT08, I played Battle Garegga during the practice week. I was terrible at the game, but I thought it was fantastic. I'm perfectly capable of enjoying a game I suck at.

Einhander is probably the most popular shmup that I don't care much for. It just never does anything for me. However, that game seems more popular outside of the shmup community. I don't hear much praise for it here.

I really like Einhander, but I think you're right, it does seem to be respected more outside of the shmup community than in it.

s/m

atro_city · Post by **atro_city** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:55 pm

Horizontal shooters.

Ikaruga.

Are we the same person?

But yeah, horizontal shmups don't do it for me. One thing I can't stand is enemies coming from behind with no warning, which very rarely happens in vertical shmups.

I'm also not a fan of shmups that make a habit of limiting your movement, like Guwange. Not that I would like Guwange if it didn't limit your movement, but that's another story.

Heavily military-themed shooters in general. They just seem...well, meh, and they like to throw really fast bullets at you all the time (I prefer slower bullets that don't require twitch reflexes to dodge).

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:27 pm

MR_Soren wrote:Einhander is probably the most popular shmup that I don't care much for. It just never does anything for me. However, that game seems more popular outside of the shmup community. I don't hear much praise for it here.

The same goes for Axelay.

henry dark · Post by **henry dark** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:54 pm

Udderdude wrote:
henry dark wrote:DDP:DOJ
This game is really only one for the superfreaks who have run out of challenges in almost every other shmup, especially the murderously difficult second loop. The only thing I can think of that's harder is Mushi Futari Ultra.

The difficulty doesn't bother me, its the scoring system I hate.

ForceDevice · Post by **ForceDevice** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:11 pm

henry dark wrote: The difficulty doesn't bother me, its the scoring system I hate.

This. I still love the rest of it though.

MathU · Post by **MathU** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:35 pm

R-Type Delta. I don't understand why some people think it's the best R-Type. Maybe it was like My First Shmup on My First Console. I disagree entirely, and I think all 4 of the first R-Type games are better (yes, even Leo).

Ayanami · Post by **Ayanami** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:39 pm

I don't get Dodonpachi. It feels like the patterns are messy to me. Plus I hate the chain system.

Dragoforce · Post by **Dragoforce** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 7:59 pm

I've never really liked Axelay. The music is good and all, but the game? The vertical courses are really quite terrible. Horrible perspective and scrolling that forces your ship into the center of the screen.

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:14 pm

Dragoforce wrote:I've never really liked Axelay. The music is good and all, but the game? The vertical courses are really quite terrible. Horrible perspective and scrolling that forces your ship into the center of the screen.

QFT! I never quite understood the appeal of Axelay, beyond the awesome graphics/music, and the novelty of the perspective (which makes the "vert" levels too hard & laborious). I've owned it for years now, and probably hasn't come off my shelf (other than to dust, of course), since I moved to the community I live in now, which has been 3.5+ years. It's probably been longer than that, come to think of it...

Xexex - that's another one I don't "get" at all. To me, it seems like many enemies take WAY too many hits to kill, and even though you power up, it seems like I get bombarded by enemies & can't hold on to a beefier weapon. I'm probably just playing it wrong, because I know it's a unique beast, but it doesn't click for me.

ChurchOfSolipsism · Post by **ChurchOfSolipsism** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:50 pm

lgb wrote:
ChurchOfSolipsism wrote:1.) bullet colour. making a game harder by making bullets more difficult to see sounds like the definition of retardedness.
A large number of bullets means the same thing?

2.) level design - in many of them, the exact same enemies & enemy pattern turn up again and again and again.
A very large amount of shmups in general?

3.) the rank system - dying on purpose to keep your rank in check? How dumb do you have to be to think that that's a good idea?
Adding some originality?

I don't know. If you want to rant about how much Battle Garegga sucks, I'm sure there's a topic all about it.

1.) So you're saying difficulty = difficulty, no matter how it is achieved?

2.) Everyone else is burning Jews, so it's ok for me to do the same. (Also, Cave doesn't burn Jews)

3.) Why do I have to give up a life for lowering the rank? There must be some other way that doesn't force me to insert more coins into a game. Don't ask me, I'm not a videogame developer so I'm not supposed to come up with a better idea. It's just that this idea sucks.

I'm not saying the games aren't worth playing or shit or anything (I'm playing them on a regular basis more or less), just like it's not true that I hate 8ing games because I suck at them. I suck at ALL shmups, but it doesn't make me hate them. Raizing's developers just made a couple of choices that seem very odd to me.

PS: Muchi Muchi Pork finally has colourful bullets that can be seen clearly at all times. I see that as an acknowledgement that it just works better this way.

nimitz · Post by **nimitz** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:07 pm

This has turned into a "shmups you don't like thread"

also, for anyone who doesn't like rank in Raizing/8ing games:

Simply forget about it

forget that there is rank in the game altogether...chances are you will never reach that level of play where rank control is necessary anyway.

atro_city · Post by **atro_city** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:13 pm

Why do I have to give up a life for lowering the rank? There must be some other way that doesn't force me to insert more coins into a game. Don't ask me, I'm not a videogame developer so I'm not supposed to come up with a better idea. It's just that this idea sucks.

Actually, there is. If you know what triggers rank increase you can avoid it and keep the rank manageable without sacrificing lives. Although it's pretty hard to 1LC Garegga, it's definitely possible.

It also gives a lot of incentive to score high, because you can then die, decrease the rank, and get that life back with an extend.

My only complaint is that the average joe who comes up to a Garegga cabinet isn't going to know these things because he isn't told about the aggressive rank system.

DMC · Post by **DMC** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:35 pm

Why do I have to give up a life for lowering the rank? There must be some other way that doesn't force me to insert more coins into a game.

It doesn't force you to insert more coins, it encourages you to play with less lives - to take some risks to get better score.
I think it is a good idea if well applied.

Didn't you have to suicide at each boss in omega fighter special, not for rank but anyway?
I dont remember the details, but I have a vague memory that it was terribly done.

Square King · Post by **Square King** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:42 pm

ChurchOfSolipsism wrote:
2.) Everyone else is burning Jews, so it's ok for me to do the same. (Also, Cave doesn't burn Jews)

Hold the phone

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:16 pm

LtC wrote:It's even more bizzare than in Darius Gaiden where the game music sounds like porn music and you're killing lots of fish -_-;;

I'm no connoisseur, but you must watch some unusual porn.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:29 am

freddiebamboo wrote:
dying on purpose to keep your rank in check? How dumb do you have to be to think that that's a good idea?

With all the guides and information that is available on Raizing games, I'm amazed some people still can't understand rank and suiciding. When did adding an element of strategy and risk become a bad thing?

If you got in a fight with some guy in an alleyway who was trying to mug you, would you headbutt a garbage dumpster as hard as you could so that the mugger would take pity on you and/or think you're insane and leave you alone?

No?

Fuck rank.

third_strike · Post by **third_strike** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:45 am

Psikyo games.
Cool!

EddyMRA · Post by **EddyMRA** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:58 am

Ookay. Let's get this right back on topic, shall we?

Gaiares. This way a very popular SHMUP on the Genesis back in the day. However, I don't see why it was so popular. I enjoyed Thunder Force III much more than this game.

Sure, it has a unique powerup system where you launch your TOZ device to steal an enemy's weapon, but that's where all the positives end.

The negatives:
*Cheap cheap level designs. Look at the castle in space section. Look at the area where you have to travel through tunnels in mountains where enemy bullets do not follow the screen scrolling.
*Most of the music is very bad. Shining example: the Western-sounding boss theme. WTF?
*Most of the weapons suck hard. Rolling Collidere, Somersault Laser, even the flashy Giga Beam are bad weapons.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:24 am

Also, Cave doesn't burn Jews

Nazi comparisons = I'm a 14 year old going through puberty argument. Please grow up and learn not to have shitty taste (enjoy your cave games where it doesn't matter where enemies appear because they die instantly to your enormous spread shot).

trivial · Post by **trivial** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 2:26 am

Trizeal. Derivatives of Xevious.

Anything with more than two shot buttons. Chording exacerbates this.

Weapon selection (after I've chosen a ship and started playing) doesn't make a shmup more fun to me, as it can an FPS.

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 3:56 am

ChurchOfSolipsism wrote: 3.) Why do I have to give up a life for lowering the rank? There must be some other way that doesn't force me to insert more coins into a game. Don't ask me, I'm not a videogame developer so I'm not supposed to come up with a better idea. It's just that this idea sucks.\

If you can score well enough to get extends, you won't need to insert any coins.

Personally, I love the rank systems in games like Bakraid and Batrider, since it keeps the game challenging as your skill increases. The games get crazy but not impossible. I love cranking the rank up in Batrider to the get bullets going on the sewage boss so fast you can barely see them.

lgb · Post by **lgb** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:21 am

ChurchOfSolipsism wrote:3.) Why do I have to give up a life for lowering the rank? There must be some other way that doesn't force me to insert more coins into a game. Don't ask me, I'm not a videogame developer so I'm not supposed to come up with a better idea. It's just that this idea sucks.

Learn to score well? That's how Garegga works and the reason why sacrificing lives is actually a somewhat good tactic; that's the way the game was built. You don't have to sacrifice a life if you aren't scoring well, because it won't do you any good.

Don't call something a "flaw" if you don't like it. Call something a "flaw" if it's a serious problem, such a undodgeable patterns, a permanent-invincibility glitch or a very bad use of safe-spots.

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Extremely popular shmups you don't "get"

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