Layer Section II (RayStorm) on Saturn...

[Bar81]

Fact: You prefer the PSX to the Saturn

OK, then I'll state some facts:

Fact: The PS can handle more polygons of any type onscreen than the SS can.

Fact: The SS does not have hardware support for curved polygon transparencies.

Fact: The SS has more memory than the PS does.

Are these factual claims satisfactory for you?

In many [but not all] graphical respects, the PS is the better machine. Likewise, in many but not all, graphical respects the SS is the "better" machine. Programmers, however, certainly made the difference for better or worse in all those SS ports that didn't originally push the PS's polygon capabilities to its limit.

Game-wise, it's entirely in the eye of the beholder. I happen to think the SS is the far better machine with its excellent 2D exclusives.

For the record, I'm surprised with the vehemence shown in this topic. Chill out a bit, man.

Your post has been clarified to point out what you didn't say which is just, if not more important, than what you did say.

Thanks for proving my point that neither machine is "superior" to the other, graphically or otherwise. Again, my original statement stands.

Your rambling causes me to ask you to take your own advice in the last line of your post.

[Palmer Eldritch]

By the way, I just played SEGA Rally. It's a very good conversion. I wonder how SEGA managed to mess up the Daytona port?

Daytona had a lot more straight-aways and aeras that needed a long long long view than Sega Rally, IIRC. Daytona CCE was quite a bit better than Daytona USA, so the main problem was that they were just rushing to get the product out the door (like Virtua Fighter vs Virtua Fighter Remix)

I think you´re both missing the point.
Yes. Daytona USA looked a bit rushed and sloppily programmed. That´s probably a fact.
The game, however, is great fun to play and has exactly the same feel to it as its arcadeparent. This is a good thing.
Daytona CCE, while being graphically superior was about as soulless a driving experience as you´re likely to encounter on any console IMO.

Bottom line. Neither graphics nor (transparancies ) make or break a game.

[Neon]

Better on Saturn:
01. Darius Gaiden
02. Gunbird
03. Gokujyo Parodius Da! Deluxe Pack
04. Sengoku Blaede
05. Shienryu
06. Soukyugurentai
07. Strikers 1945
08. Thunder Force V

Better on PS1/PS2:
09. Detana Twinbee Yahho Deluxe Pack (I think?)
10. Donpachi
11. Dodonpachi
12. In the Hunt
13. Layer Section 2/Raystorm
14. Strikers 1945 II

Equivalent on both:
15. Arcade Gears: Image Fight/X-Multiply
16. Bokan To Ippatsu Doronboo Kanpekiban
17. Capcom Generation 1
18. Capcom Generation 3
19. Capcom Generation 4
20. Cho Aniki
21. Gradius Deluxe Pack
22. Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius
23. Konami MSX Antiques Ultra Pack
24. Salamander Deluxe Pack Plus
25. Sexy Parodius
26. Sonic Wings Special
27. Sol Divide
28. Space Invaders
29. Super Dimensional Fortress Macross: Do You Remember Love?

Sengoku Blade was never ported to PSX. You might as well add Gradius Gaiden to PSX's list in this case . If we're talking playstation family, the PS2 port is arguably better because instead of extra artwork it comes with an extra game and has better sound and animations (I'm told this by BIG, but I believe him and it makes sense if you think about it)

Sonic Wings Special is usually considered better on the PSX, I thought. Why, I have no idea, but maybe a SWS expert can fill us in...

Thunderforce 5 better on Saturn? I thought the only differences were the city in the background on Saturn, and the PSX not having pixel mesh transparencies and not having slowdown. If this is true I myself would prefer the PSX version.

All this nonsense is silly anyways given companies usually throw in extras to the worse port to entice fans to get both versions. It's arguable Souky is better on PSX due to an extra level and ship, or that Dodon is better on Saturn due to the lower price and Saturn mode... It'd even be arguable that Xmen vs. Streetfighter is better on PSX because of the added training mode.

This thread is getting kinda lame, kids. There ARE reasons people look down on console fanboyism/wars you know

[ST Dragon]

The only factor I originaly presented of which console was better, was "Graphics" nothing else.

Everything else was added by the rest of the posters.

As for Daytona USA on Saturn, I just tried it & it's not just that it looks bad, it also plays a lot worse than the Arcade version. The controls aren't that responsive & the game is quite slow & jerky.

SEGA Rally on the other hand plays very smoothly & looks very good.

[Bar81]

Also the music themes aren’t enhanced like the PSX version & don’t sound as cool & epic.

This is a perfect example that the PSX is the better machine …

Graphics only, right? Stop talking out of your ass, as usual. You stated the PSX as a better machine without qualifications. Besides, you still are clueless if you think the PSX is a better machine graphically than the Saturn. Stop being such a fanboy.

[llabnip]

As for Daytona USA on Saturn, I just tried it & it's not just that it looks bad, it also plays a lot worse than the Arcade version. The controls aren't that responsive & the game is quite slow & jerky.

Whoa... step away from the Kool-aid

I'm a huge Daytona USA fan... played it tons in the Arcade (the local arcade still had a 2 seat version up until a couple of years ago). I've got it for the PC, both versions for the Saturn (original and CCE) and the Dreamcast. The original Saturn version plays the best - spot on handling and is the most fun of the lot. Graphically, the pop-ups are the biggest issue in the original rev - but those don't both me at all. The CCE version looks miles better and has new tracks to race on... but they messed up the controls somewhat. The Dreamcast looks the best but the controls are again not quite right. The original is still the best in terms of sheer fun... great control and great sense of speed... just what an arcade racer should deliver and the original Daytona USA is one of the highlights on the Saturn.

Besides, you still are clueless if you think the PSX is a better machine graphically than the Saturn

Well... I'm not going to argue since I love both machines... the 2D on both machines was pretty equal but the later generation 3D PSX games did outshine the Saturn games graphically. Nothing on the Saturn really comes up to the level of Grad Turismo 2, Ridge Racer 4, Tekken 3 and many of the PSX sports titles post 2000. Light sourcing, transparencies and refined high-polygon-count handling really allowed the later generation Playstation titles to look terrific. The Saturn could have reached the same peaks... if it were given enough shelf life for the developers to push it further.

[Palmer Eldritch]

llabnip, you should probably clarify that the last quote you´re running wasn´t posted by ST Dragon, but by Bar81 in response to something ST Dragon said.

[captain ahar]

If Sega had managed the Saturn marketing correctly (and provided a backwards-compatible Dreamcast)... we may have been talking about the 4th and 5th generation Saturn titles that would have been simply beyond amazing. If only...

this prospect brought tears to my eyes.

[Bar81]

The Saturn could have reached the same peaks... if it were given enough shelf life for the developers to push it further.

Once again, we just don't know so that there's no way to declare either console superior graphically in terms of hardware or otherwise. Again, nothing said here changes what I originally posted.

[ST Dragon]

Also the music themes aren’t enhanced like the PSX version & don’t sound as cool & epic.

This is a perfect example that the PSX is the better machine …

Graphics only, right? Stop talking out of your ass, as usual. You stated the PSX as a better machine without qualifications. Besides, you still are clueless if you think the PSX is a better machine graphically than the Saturn. Stop being such a fanboy.

But what’s worse, are the heavy slowdowns that it suffers from! At some points it’s almost unplayable.
It did have some cool FMV cut scenes though which the PSX version lacked.

This is a perfect example that the PSX is the better machine ….

I was referring to the slowdowns not the sound. You didn’t understand & edited that.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to the games, THAT is what determines which console is "superior" if that judgment can be made. IMO the Saturn is the "superior" console simply because it has many more games I not only want to play, but still to this day are examples of the finest games in terms of gameplay ever designed. In fact, I could care less about 3D although I'm a big FPS guy. Again, imo the PSX signaled the death of gameplay as the predominant factor in design of a game and the commercialization of the industry. On that factor alone, I would argue, the PSX is the most inferior console ever produced but I'm getting sidetracked.

It’s you that turned to quantity/quality & gameplay of the games & the death of gameplay as we know it & then you started posting some wild stuff about scientific facts.

Bottom line is that to state as some type of scientific fact that one console is better than the other shows that you either have no clue what you're talking about or you're a fanboy; simple as that.

Strange as you sound a lot more like a fanboy your self.

Anyone who says the PSX is flat out the better machine is talking out of his clueless ass. There are things each machine does better. There are many games that the PSX couldn't even hope to attempt that the saturn is able to pull off. One high profile example is Dungeons & Dragons Collection, a title that was to receive a port to the PSX until Capcom realized that it was impossible given the PSX's design..

One high profile example is Dungeons & Dragons Collection, a title that was to receive a port to the PSX until Capcom realized that it was impossible given the PSX's design.

The same could be said for the Saturn.

Cos without the extra 4,096 kilobytes of RAM, the Saturn could not have done it either.

That statement makes no sense. Part of the actual Saturn hardware design was the expansion slot with the ability to add RAM so the Saturn, as history has shown, could do it.

“One high profile example is Dungeons & Dragons Collection”?

High profile example?! Yeah right!

There is nothing special about D&D collection, which the PSX couldn’t handle & no one has ever heard Capcom stating that the PSX couldn’t handle it. You’re the 1st to say it & I’m sure you’re making this up to back up your “clueless” statements.
You seem to base your posts & statements on”clues” but you haven’t posted one single valid argument yet, to back up your so called “clues”

Saying that the Saturn was better than the PSX because it had the ability to upgrade it’s RAM since it featured an expansion bridge, is like saying that the SNES would have been better than the SEGA CD in movie playback if it had the CD-ROM unit, for it also had an expansion slot!
You can only compare what you can see & not base your statements on assumptions. What’s granted for sure is that D&D simply wouldn’t be possible on the Saturn without the Extra 4MB RAM.

If that’s not clueless, then what is?

The Saturn could have reached the same peaks... if it were given enough shelf life for the developers to push it further.

Once again, we just don't know so that there's no way to declare either console superior graphically in terms of hardware or otherwise. Again, nothing said here changes what I originally posted.

Facts speak for them selves. If you compare the graphics in most of the games that both consoles have to offer today, even a blind person would notice the scale turn towards the PSX. I don’t care what could/if have/had been done in the future for the Saturn, it’s what did happen that counts & the fact is that it was weaker in the graphics arena, regardless if it had more quality games or not.

Simple as that.

Nuff said…

[Bar81]

Okay, fanboy. Whatever you say. You just keep on embarassing yourself with your nonsensical posts.

[ST Dragon]

It really matters for you to get that last word in, right?

[Nuke]

Oldest trick in the book ST. Oldest trick in the book

[antime]

Quake is amazing on the Saturn. Programmed by Lobotomy, using the same engine that was created specifically for Powerslave, entitled Slavedriver, everything runs quite smoothly. Probably runs at a constant 30fps.
Lighting is great too and looks even better than the PC version at times.

As for the PSX version, I wouldn´t know. In fact, I didn´t even know it came out for the PSX....

In an interview Lobotomy's lead programmer revealed that they did an unreleased Playstation port of Quake 1, and that it ran quite a bit faster, too.

Besides, you still are clueless if you think the PSX is a better machine graphically than the Saturn. Stop being such a fanboy.

O, the irony.

[Palmer Eldritch]

In an interview Lobotomy's lead programmer revealed that they did an unreleased Playstation port of Quake 1, and that it ran quite a bit faster, too.

Great read. Thanks for the link. So the PSX version of Quake was never officially released?

Besides, you still are clueless if you think the PSX is a better machine graphically than the Saturn. Stop being such a fanboy.

O, the irony.

Hardly.

[ST Dragon]

Matt: A PSX port of Quake? That's terribly interesting! I've wanted a version of Quake on the PSX so I could compare versions on all three of the consoles from that "generation". If you've the inclination, I'd truly like to hear how the port turned out on the PSX hardware, compared to the Saturn and (if you've seen it) the N64 version.

Ezra: The most striking thing about the PSX port was how much faster the graphics hardware was than the Saturn. The initial scene after you just start the game is pretty complex. I think it ran 20 fps on the Saturn version. On the PSX it ran 30,but the actual rendering part could have been going 60 if the CPU calculations weren't holding it up. I don't know if it would have ever been possible to get it to really run 60, but at least there was the potential.

Other than that, it would have looked identical to the Saturn version. Except for some reason the PSX video output has better color than the Saturn's.

So I know something about the PSX. And really, if you couldn't tell from the games, the PSX is way better than the Saturn. It's way simpler and way faster. There are a lot of things about the Saturn that are totally dumb. Chief among these is that you can't draw triangles, only quadrilaterals.

Matt: I think I've seen an example of this in Tomb Raider on the Saturn. Very early on, in the caves, you can find a rock with a triangular side. In the PSX version, a rectangular texture was cut down the diagonal and mapped onto that triangle. In the Saturn version they had mapped the entire rectangular texture into the triangle, reducing one side to a point (in the sense that a triangle is a degenerate quadrilateral with one side of length zero).

Ezra: Ha! That's pretty weak. What you do if you're really trying is you pre-undistort the texture so that when you pinch one side down like that you end up getting what you wanted. We had to do this for the monster models in Saturn Quake.

Oh Man...
That's bad!

That cleared things up I guess...
Thanks antime.

[alpha5099]

Oh no, programmers couldn't draw triangles on the Saturn. Check and mate, ST Dragon.

[captain ahar]

and weren't we just talking about developer laziness?

heh, core design took a really stupid shortcut. the saturn blows.

right.

[jp]

Wow... I'm amazed this topic is still going on... I was just avoiding it because of the extreme idiocy gettin' thrown about, but here's my 2 cents.


1. Capcom probably could have done the 4MB games on the Saturn (see: X-Men Children of the Atom), but why do that when its easier to utilize a fucking tool thats given to you for the sole purpose of making such tasks easier? You want fine ass 2D graphics sans MB carts, FINE: Game Tengoku, Galactic Attack, Street Fighter Alpha 1 and 2, Strikers 1945, Twinkle Star Sprites (better than the Neo Geo version? Yes, I do believe so. MB cart? No... no there isn't), Batsugun, Battle Garegga, Vampire Hunter, Astal, Dragon Force, Legend of Oasis, Guardian Heroes, Silhouette Mirage (looks better than the PS1 version? Check!) Princess Crown, and to an extent Shinrei Jusatsushi Taromaru. Although it and Radiant Silvergun are better at showing off the Saturn mixing 2D and 3D per-fect-fucking-ly. And I don't know what Necronomicon would be classified as graphics wise but it definitely shows that the Saturn to churn out some graphics and some sound.

2. You want 3D graphics on the Saturn sans a 4MB cart? Fine: Virtua Fighter 2, Dead or Alive (despite what you're seeing in your hallucinagenic state), NiGHTS, Powerslave (Oh so much superior on the Saturn), Sonic R, The House of the Dead, and Shining Force III Scenarios 1-3.


Most of the Saturn's short comings vs. PS1 versions come from lazy ass programming, nothing more, nothing less. Atlus dropped the ball on DonPachi and DoDonPachi, but given how Batsugun runs there's no doubt in my mind the Saturn could've handled both titles (hell, the Saturn IS close to arcade perfect with DDP, they just didn't include the "Wait Off" option in the Saturn rev which was a f'ing extra in the PS1 version).


And you want transparencies? Fine, Mega Man 8, Thunder Force V, Super Dimensional Fortress Macross: Do You Remember Love?, and if I recall correctly Astal had them too, but its been awhile.

The PS1 could run 3D graphics a bit faster than the Saturn, yes, saying otherwise would be foolish given Silent Bomber. But the Saturn could easily chug out 2D graphics better than the PS1, its just that people decided to make their fucking job easier and use a 4MB RAM cart. If Capcom had put the time into it they could have very well pulled off whatever they wanted 2D-wise on the Saturn without any expansion carts, although I'm sure it would have been recquired for the likes of the CPIII board (which the PS1 probably couldn't even fathom running).


Edit:
And thats it, I'm done. I don't care what non-sensical bullshit gets spouted out at me. "Oh, you have no proof! Capcom never tried so wah wah wah!" Yeah, fucking Capcom, never thinking ahead to fanboy wars where someone needs to prove the Saturn is the better console regardless of the official add-on that was released for it. What the fuck were they thinking?

[roushimsx]

Speaking of Saturn RAM carts, doesn't the US version of XMen:COTA support the 1mb ram cart?

I recall hearing something about that but I never bothered to check (despite having both the game and a 1mb ram cart; I really don't care for the game ). Something about there being something to toggle it in the option screen or some such... *shrug*

Anyway, it's a well known fact that the Saturn was more difficult to program for. Don't hate on the programmers just because they decided it'd be more worthwhile to dump the bulk of their efforts into the Playstation

That interview with Ezra Dreisbach was an awesome read and made me really want to play Death Tank Zwei again

[jp]

Speaking of Saturn RAM carts, doesn't the US version of XMen:COTA support the 1mb ram cart?

I recall hearing something about that but I never bothered to check (despite having both the game and a 1mb ram cart; I really don't care for the game ). Something about there being something to toggle it in the option screen or some such... *shrug*

No, that was Marvel Super Heroes.

[roushimsx]

No, that was Marvel Super Heroes.

Oh ok, cool. Thanks for clearing that up

[Ganelon]

If Capcom had put the time into it they could have very well pulled off whatever they wanted 2D-wise on the Saturn without any expansion carts, although I'm sure it would have been recquired for the likes of the CPIII board (which the PS1 probably couldn't even fathom running).

Actually, the PS did an admirable job with the CPS3 port of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. There's definitely plenty of color and animation cuts but the game moves very fluidly. Though I'm sure the SS could've handled it even better given its 2D prowess had it been alive at the time.

The PS1 could run 3D graphics a bit faster than the Saturn, yes, saying otherwise would be foolish given Silent Bomber. But the Saturn could easily chug out 2D graphics better than the PS1

Yeah, the end result is that the PS is no 2D slouch and the SS can do 3D but each has its own strong points. It's highly doubtful Princess Crown could run on the PS in all its sprite-based glory just as it's highly doubtful Omega Boost's particle effects could be pulled off on the SS.

[llabnip]

2. You want 3D graphics on the Saturn sans a 4MB cart? Fine: Virtua Fighter 2, Dead or Alive (despite what you're seeing in your hallucinagenic state), NiGHTS, Powerslave (Oh so much superior on the Saturn), Sonic R, The House of the Dead, and Shining Force III Scenarios 1-3.

I totally agree with VF2 and Sonic R. NiGHTS looks great when it's moving on rails - get on the ground and see how rough things get. The House of the Dead is about as bad, graphically, as it gets on the Saturn. Fortunately the gameplay is stunning.

Most of the Saturn's short comings vs. PS1 versions come from lazy ass programming, nothing more, nothing less.

Most would agree that the reverse is also true.

although I'm sure it would have been recquired for the likes of the CPIII board (which the PS1 probably couldn't even fathom running).

The PSX did get the cps3 Jojo's Bizarre Adventure and it was quite good. As I've said, Capcom got their act together and understood the PSX by the time Street Fighter Alpha 3 got released (from 1999 onwards... Capcom has carried that high quality of porting through the PS2 nowadays).

[PaCrappa]

So did the Playstation win this thing yet? I can't possibly be bothered to read such booooring played out arguments that have been getting old with the mold since '98.

I can't believe that anyone is pursuing an argument here. At the end of the day jp still thinks the Staurn wins and I still think the PS1 wins. And we both live happily ever after

The End.

Pa

[Moogs]

Funny how Dungeons & Dragons Collection entered into this conversation. I was always under the impression that Saturn couldn't handle the game, either. Why else would it load so damn much and for so long, even with the 4Meg RAM cart?

As for transparencies, I find it odd that the SNES was able to do them without a problem, yet the Saturn, from what I've read, needed extra special attention to do them.

[D]

I'm very amused with the Saturn vs PS fights.

I absolutly love the Saturn.
The Saturn has two processors. If Sony wouln't have entered the market they would have made the Saturn with one processor. So allready the saturn has a, yes weird architecture.

I think the PS is a slightly better machine, but the differences are minimal, except for the polygon count.

But I'm still furious about the magazines at that time allways badmouthing the Saturn. I wish I had one way back.

Sega Rally has a much smoother frame-rate than Ridge Racer.
Saturn has built in memory card!!!!!

[Bar81]

The Saturn has two processors. If Sony wouln't have entered the market they would have made the Saturn with one processor.

That's incorrect. The Saturn always had the dual CPUs. What happened was that when the PSX was unveiled, SOJ was furious and ordered its engineers to add upgraded 3D capabilities to the unit. And yes, it was a bitch to program for, especially as SOJ didn't get any programming libraries out until months after launch.

[ST Dragon]

Better on Saturn:
01. Darius Gaiden
02. Gunbird
03. Gokujyo Parodius Da! Deluxe Pack
04. Sengoku Blaede
05. Shienryu
06. Soukyugurentai
07. Strikers 1945
08. Thunder Force V

Better on PS1/PS2:
09. Detana Twinbee Yahho Deluxe Pack (I think?)
10. Donpachi
11. Dodonpachi
12. In the Hunt
13. Layer Section 2/Raystorm
14. Strikers 1945 II

Equivalent on both:
15. Arcade Gears: Image Fight/X-Multiply
16. Bokan To Ippatsu Doronboo Kanpekiban
17. Capcom Generation 1
18. Capcom Generation 3
19. Capcom Generation 4
20. Cho Aniki
21. Gradius Deluxe Pack
22. Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius
23. Konami MSX Antiques Ultra Pack
24. Salamander Deluxe Pack Plus
25. Sexy Parodius
26. Sonic Wings Special
27. Sol Divide
28. Space Invaders
29. Super Dimensional Fortress Macross: Do You Remember Love?

Sengoku Blade was never ported to PSX. You might as well add Gradius Gaiden to PSX's list in this case . If we're talking playstation family, the PS2 port is arguably better because instead of extra artwork it comes with an extra game and has better sound and animations (I'm told this by BIG, but I believe him and it makes sense if you think about it)

Sonic Wings Special is usually considered better on the PSX, I thought. Why, I have no idea, but maybe a SWS expert can fill us in...

Thunderforce 5 better on Saturn? I thought the only differences were the city in the background on Saturn, and the PSX not having pixel mesh transparencies and not having slowdown. If this is true I myself would prefer the PSX version.

All this nonsense is silly anyways given companies usually throw in extras to the worse port to entice fans to get both versions. It's arguable Souky is better on PSX due to an extra level and ship, or that Dodon is better on Saturn due to the lower price and Saturn mode... It'd even be arguable that Xmen vs. Streetfighter is better on PSX because of the added training mode.

This thread is getting kinda lame, kids. There ARE reasons people look down on console fanboyism/wars you know

Some Levels on the Saturn version of TFV (Especially The 1st water level) have more colours & detail than the PSX version. Also the city in the 3rd level is different on the Saturn where as the PSX had some 3D low polygon tubular-like constructions in the background.(This was a try by technoSoft to show-case the 3D capabilitis of the PSX I guess, but did a horrible job there...) 3rd level looks bad on both systems imo.

But the Saturn version suffers from slow downs, especially the fight against Iron Maiden.

Plus the PSX TFV, has one of the coolest intros & story lines I've seen in a shmup.
I prefer the PSX personally.

[Bar81]

I prefer the PSX personally.

Be still my heart. I can't take any more surprises. A PSX fanboy preferring a PSX version of a game. IT JUST CAN'T BE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!