Layer Section II (RayStorm) on Saturn...

[ST Dragon]

I played Layer Section 2 – RayStorm today on my Saturn for the 1st time & I must say that it’s inferior to the PSX version which I got 8 years ago. The graphics are about the same on both, but the Saturn version is missing all those cool transparencies & effects (Explosions, Lasers, etc…) & it’s got slightly less detailed textures & polygons.
Also the music themes aren’t enhanced like the PSX version & don’t sound as cool & epic. The Boss music especially is missing something in the Beginning.
But what’s worse, are the heavy slowdowns that it suffers from! At some points it’s almost unplayable.
It did have some cool FMV cut scenes though which the PSX version lacked.

This is a perfect example that the PSX is the better machine …

Generally I’m surprised that the Saturn managed to pull this off, judging by the poor Dead or Alive Saturn port & compared to the arcade perfect PSX port.

[CMoon]

Dude, I think it has more to do with the programmers. There are great examples of good 2D and 3D on both consoles...then there are crappy examples on both as well.

[jp]

Generally I’m surprised that the Saturn managed to pull this off, judging by the poor Dead or Alive Saturn port & compared to the arcade perfect PSX port.

Are you insane? Its common knowledge that the Saturn port of Dead or Alive is better than the PS1 version. Itagaki himself said so. And thats why the Saturn port is the one on Dead or Alive Ultimate.


Hell, if you want to see an impressive 32-bit 3D/2D shmup, look no further than Radiant Silvergun, which looks worlds better than Layer Section II.

[Shatterhand]

Sonic 3D looks a lot impressive IMO. I can't remember of many 3D games on PSX that look that beatiful.

Sega Rally looks very good too, and it's faster and smoother than most PSX racing games.

I don't want to say that one or another is better, it's just to prove that this really has more to do with programmers than the system.

[Palmer Eldritch]

I played Layer Section 2 – RayStorm today on my Saturn for the 1st time & I must say that it’s inferior to the PSX version which I got 8 years ago.

Might have something to do with the fact that LS2 is originally based on the Playstation system 12, and thus a lot easier to convert to PS1.

This is a perfect example that the PSX is the better machine …

Hardly. I believe the Saturn has the upper hand in actual muscle-power

Generally I’m surprised that the Saturn managed to pull this off, judging by the poor Dead or Alive Saturn port & compared to the arcade perfect PSX port.

Oh please! The Saturn version is lightyears ahead of its distant PS-cousin.
In fact, the SS version of DoA actually rivalled Sega´s own VF2 for best "3D fighter" on the system.

[ST Dragon]

I just tried DOA on both Saturn & PS-1 & the Saturn version looks worse than the PSX. Very bad 3D models, textures, slowdowns. & the backgrounds have almost no detail, just plain colourful skies depending on the level.

Well VF2 was not a good arcade conversion to start with so it doesn't matter if it’s worse or better than DOA on the Saturn. Where as Tekken 1, 2 & 3 & Soul Blade were arcade perfect conversions on the PS-1.

Same goes for Daytona. Very low polygon count compared to the arcade version, slow & jerky.

I doubt this is not because of sloppy programming (Very lame excuse), but simply because the Saturn didn't have the horse power to pull these off.

What about CastleVania SOTN on the Saturn which came out 1 year after the PSX version? It’s worse.

Even Radiant Silvergun which is supposed to utilise the best Saturn programming, doesn't have transparencies. All the explosions & lasers look like they're made up of grids.

[jp]

I just tried DOA on both Saturn & PS-1 & the Saturn version looks worse than the PSX. Very bad 3D models, textures, slowdowns. & the backgrounds have almost no detail, just plain colourful skies depending on the level.

Wow... then I guess Itagaki, the guy who MADE THE GAME, completely doesn't know what he's talking about. I hate it when that happens.


As for transparencies on Saturn, see Mega Man 8, Shienryu, and Super Dimensional Fortress Macross: Do You Remember Love?


It can be done, its just that most programmers were too damn lazy to do it. And I find it odd that you're basing the power of a console solely on its ability to show off transparencies.

[captain ahar]

its funny that you think sloppy programming is a lame excuse.

your arguments make it sound like for a home port, they take the arcade pcb and copy its contents directly to cd. voila, port.

and transparencies seem like a very arbitrary thing to focus on.

on the subject of the Saturn's 3d capability, anyone see the Shenmue demo? was this done in-engine, on-spec?

[jp]

on the subject of the Saturn's 3d capability, anyone see the Shenmue demo? was this done in-engine, on-spec?

I do believe so.


They spent 2 years working on it (it was originally going to be a Virtua Fighter RPG) and the footage from Shenmue II was from what they had had up to that point.

[captain ahar]

then holy hell, in your face ST dragon.

[Palmer Eldritch]

What about CastleVania SOTN on the Saturn which came out 1 year after the PSX version? It’s worse.

It *DOES* have longer loading times, and at times it´s not as good as the PSX version, I´ll admit that.
What it does have is a lot of extra material, extra characters and a significantly larger playing area.
Good game on both machines.

What´s with the transparancies-thing? Is this important to gameplay as such?
Aesthetics hardly come into consideration in my book when I decide whether or not I like a game. It´s a factor, granted, but not one as important as gameplay mechanics and overall playability.

And that´s the thing in a nutshell. Even though you claim that neither DoA nor VF2 are arcadeperfect and that Daytona looks somewhat sloppy, they still hold their own pretty well against the Tekkens and the Ridge Racers that people usually like to throw in Saturn owners faces.
I own both machines, but the point is, I´d rather play Daytona over Ridge Racer or Gran Turismo, and I´d most certainly rather play VF2 than any of the Tekkens you mention.
Whether or not a game looks like its arcadeparent is totally irrelevant.

Even Radiant Silvergun which is supposed to utilise the best Saturn programming, doesn't have transparencies. All the explosions & lasers look like they're made up of grids.

Saturn owners refer to this as mesh-work Still, it´s a pretty good shooter, wouldn´t you say?

EDIT: I actually believe that the Saturn port of VF2 is generally regarded as one of *THE* allround best arcadeconversions of the 32-bit era.

--Michael

[TVG]

there should be a sign that says "do not feed the troll." and this topic should be closed.

ST, go do that shit elsewhere, i tought people in this forum were above 13.

[Shatterhand]

I remember reading somewhere that Treasure begun working in a port of Radiant Silvergun for the PS1, but then they stopped, because it was not possible to make the game properly in a PS1...

Both machines are great, both has good and bad games (Either 2D or 3D). Donpachi is 2D and it's better on PSX. Thunder Force V is 3D and it's better on Saturn ..

[llabnip]

I remember reading somewhere that Treasure begun working in a port of Radiant Silvergun for the PS1, but then they stopped, because it was not possible to make the game properly in a PS1...

That's not quite correct (but is often quoted this way). They looked into the feasability of porting the game to the PS1 and they didn't feel they could do it given time/budget constraints. People often take this feasability study to mean that the PS1 was incapable of Radiant Silvergun. The PS1 is perfectly capable of running a game as complex as Radiant Silvergun if Treasure were to build it from the ground up on the PSX hardware. The game was made to take advantage of all the tricks for the ST-V arcade hardware which was a natural port to the Saturn. To get the PSX to do the same thing, it would have taken a complete re-write. Not something Treasure was willing to do given real-world budget and time constraints.

CMoon is correct. The Saturn and PSX can both produce stunning 2D and 3D games. Neither is superior in terms of hardware (the Saturn has a bit more RAM and sprite shunting capabilities while the PSX has hardware MPEG decode, real transparency handling and generally better sound handling capabilities). It comes down to the programmers... seeing Raiden DX on the PSX and you know the PSX can push sprites with the "sprite-shunting-king" Saturn and seeing VF2 or Sonic Jam and you know the Saturn can push polys (actually quads... which give the Saturn a unique 3D look) with the "3D powerhouse" PSX. The Saturn is defintely geared to be a little stronger with 2D and the extra RAM helps for high-animation games (e.g. fighters) and the PSX a little stronger with 3D and movie playback.... but good programmers knew how to develop for the systems... taking advantage of the strengths and working around the weaknesses... and the games turned out really well no matter if 2D or 3D and no matter whether a PSX or a Saturn.

[ST Dragon]

I'm not a troll & not bashing the Saturn either. I just stated some points because I remembered someone writing an article about Layer Section II (Saturn) having better graphics than the PSX version.

I own both consoles & like them both for what they have to offer. The Saturn is an awesome machine, but I don't understand why people get so pissed when someone expresses his opinion about the PSX being the better machine when it comes to hardware & graphics.
Especially when one presents some good & valid arguments.

@jp

As for transparencies on Saturn, see Mega Man 8, Shienryu, and Super Dimensional Fortress Macross: Do You Remember Love?

In Mega Man 8 the only thing I noticed that looked like transparencies, were the explosions of GrenadeMan's weapon (Flash Bomb) but I'm not sure if they were & they surely didn't look as impressive as the ones seen in SOTN & RayStorm, etc... The PSX version did have better quality videos too.


About Saturn Shienryu, you're wrong, it doesn't have any. If you fire your secondary Bomb laser right in the beginning, you'll notice that it's not transparent like the PSX version, but it's made up of grided pixels. Same goes for the explosions.

I haven't played the Saturn Macross DYRL to compare it to the PSX, but I've read that it's slightly worse graphically?!

It can be done, it’s just that most programmers were too damn lazy to do it. And I find it odd that you're basing the power of a console solely on its ability to show off transparencies

I'm not basing the power of a console solely on its ability to show off transparencies! I've mentioned other factors as well like polygon count, frame rate, textures, etc... In which the Saturn seems to have problems keeping up with the PSX equivalent games.
Some how I don’t think Treasure got lazy in not adding transparencies in a fantastic work like RS, which would only make it, look better.
The PSX uses hardware routines to make these transparencies where as the Saturn uses software to produce similar effects, which would slow it down.

Transparencies are not important for the gameplay of course, but it’s the 1st thing you notice when looking at those huge blocky & grided explosions in Layer Section II, especially when you’ve 1st played the PSX version. (Explosions in shmups are very important in my book)
For today’s standards transparencies & effects are something common, but back in 1996-7 when one had never seen something similar on the 16bit consoles, these effects looked extraordinary & really cool on the PSX. It’s these small details that determine which system stands out.

@Shatterhand

Both machines are great, both has good and bad games (Either 2D or 3D). Donpachi is 2D and it's better on PSX. Thunder Force V is 3D and it's better on Saturn

Yes I agree but the Saturn has more bad examples than the PSX imo.


@Palmer Eldritch

Might have something to do with the fact that LS2 is originally based on the Playstation system 12, and thus a lot easier to convert to PS1.

Imo that's not a valid argument since the Arcade 1945 Strikers II is based on the Hitachi SH-2 CPU, but the PSX version has slightly better graphics, less slowdowns & better transparencies, even though the Saturn has 2 SH-2 CPUs.

Saturn owners refer to this as mesh-work Still, it´s a pretty good shooter, wouldn´t you say?

Hell yeah! This is probably one of the very few games that pushes the Saturn's hardware to its limits. I'm pretty sure that Treasure is using both SH-2 CPUs in this one, that would explain the lack of slowdowns which plague other similar shmups on the Saturn
[/quote]

[jp]

I'm not a troll & not bashing the Saturn either. I just stated some points because I remembered someone writing an article about Layer Section II (Saturn) having better graphics than the PSX version.

I own both consoles & like them both for what they have to offer. The Saturn is an awesome machine, but I don't understand why people get so pissed when someone expresses his opinion about the PSX being the better machine when it comes to hardware & graphics.
Especially when one presents some good & valid arguments.

@jp

As for transparencies on Saturn, see Mega Man 8, Shienryu, and Super Dimensional Fortress Macross: Do You Remember Love?

In Mega Man 8 the only thing I noticed that looked like transparencies, were the explosions of GrenadeMan's weapon (Flash Bomb) but I'm not sure if they were & they surely didn't look as impressive as the ones seen in SOTN & RayStorm, etc... The PSX version did have better quality videos too.


About Saturn Shienryu, you're wrong, it doesn't have any. If you fire your secondary Bomb laser right in the beginning, you'll notice that it's not transparent like the PSX version, but it's made up of grided pixels. Same goes for the explosions.

I haven't played the Saturn Macross DYRL to compare it to the PSX, but I've read that it's slightly worse graphically?!

It can be done, it’s just that most programmers were too damn lazy to do it. And I find it odd that you're basing the power of a console solely on its ability to show off transparencies

I'm not basing the power of a console solely on its ability to show off transparencies! I've mentioned other factors as well like polygon count, frame rate, textures, etc... In which the Saturn seems to have problems keeping up with the PSX equivalent games.
Some how I don’t think Treasure got lazy in not adding transparencies in a fantastic work like RS, which would only make it, look better.
The PSX uses hardware routines to make these transparencies where as the Saturn uses software to produce similar effects, which would slow it down.

Transparencies are not important for the gameplay of course, but it’s the 1st thing you notice when looking at those huge blocky & grided explosions in Layer Section II, especially when you’ve 1st played the PSX version. (Explosions in shmups are very important in my book)
For today’s standards transparencies & effects are something common, but back in 1996-7 when one had never seen something similar on the 16bit consoles, these effects looked extraordinary & really cool on the PSX. It’s these small details that determine which system stands out.

@Shatterhand

Both machines are great, both has good and bad games (Either 2D or 3D). Donpachi is 2D and it's better on PSX. Thunder Force V is 3D and it's better on Saturn

Yes I agree but the Saturn has more bad examples than the PSX imo.


@Palmer Eldritch

Might have something to do with the fact that LS2 is originally based on the Playstation system 12, and thus a lot easier to convert to PS1.

Imo that's not a valid argument since the Arcade 1945 Strikers II is based on the Hitachi SH-2 CPU, but the PSX version has slightly better graphics, less slowdowns & better transparencies, even though the Saturn has 2 SH-2 CPUs.

Saturn owners refer to this as mesh-work Still, it´s a pretty good shooter, wouldn´t you say?

Hell yeah! This is probably one of the very few games that pushes the Saturn's hardware to its limits. I'm pretty sure that Treasure is using both SH-2 CPUs in this one, that would explain the lack of slowdowns which plague other similar shmups on the Saturn

[/quote]


I'm talking about when you're descending through the clouds in the second level, there are transparencies. And with Mega Man 8, I was talking about being in the water.

Super Dimensional Fortress Macross has transparent explosions, and the PS1/Saturn versions are virtually identical.

As for versions of game comparisons:
Of the 29 shmups the Saturn and PS1 share, 8 are better on the Saturn and 6 are better on the PS1. The rest are identical.

And then there's all kinds of non-shmups that are better on the Saturn (Dead or Alive, Tomb Raider(I think?), Powerslave, Duke Nukem 3D, etc.).

[neorichieb1971]

Tekken 3 and Soul Edge were not 100% arcade perfect. RAM restrictions meant cuts on animation big time. Tekken 3 had most of the stages revamped into 2D backgrounds because the RAM limitation didn't allow the arcades 3D backdrops. Besides, comparing a model 2 > Saturn port against a system 11-12 > PS1 is ridiculous.

DOA was better on the Saturn, in fact the PSX version is a totally different game. Tecmo used each of the systems high points to make each version of the game. In the Saturn version, you have hi res backdrops in 3D, in the playstation you have higher polygon counts on the characters which are as tall as the screen, but the backdrops are flat.

The saturn can do transparancies, it just had to be coded in as opposed to being a built in feature like the PS1 had. Most developers saw more profit and less development time in the PS1 so went that route.


Best examples of 3D on the saturn are -

Last Bronx
Panzer Dragoon 2
Sega rally
Nights
Quake

There was another Egyptian type FPS game but I don't remember the name of it.

[roushimsx]

Are you insane? Its common knowledge that the Saturn port of Dead or Alive is better than the PS1 version. Itagaki himself said so. And thats why the Saturn port is the one on Dead or Alive Ultimate.

Screw him, he's the Derek Smart of the japanese game industry.

the Playstation version balanced out the characters, added new characters, and looked a hell of a lot better. Hell, it was used as the basis of Dead or Alive ++ (which further tweaked the balance), so you could say that it was far more arcade perfect than the Saturn release.

The only way you could say the Saturn release was superior would be if you were to judge them based solely on how closely they resemble the Model 2 version of the game, in which case, yes...the Saturn version is superior. Other than that, it's just an over priced import item for fanboys too hardcore to admit that they just might be wrong.

[Palmer Eldritch]

There was another Egyptian type FPS game but I don't remember the name of it.

Powerslave/Exhumed (by Lobotomy.) They knew how to program the old Saturn properly. Also did Quake and Duke Nuke´m.

--Michael

[Palmer Eldritch]

but I don't understand why people get so pissed when someone expresses his opinion about the PSX being the better machine when it comes to hardware & graphics.
Especially when one presents some good & valid arguments.

That´s because you didn´t present any good or valid arguments. It sounded a lot to me like you stated your opinion as fact. That tends to piss people off somewhat.

@Palmer Eldritch

Might have something to do with the fact that LS2 is originally based on the Playstation system 12, and thus a lot easier to convert to PS1.

Imo that's not a valid argument since the Arcade 1945 Strikers II is based on the Hitachi SH-2 CPU, but the PSX version has slightly better graphics, less slowdowns & better transparencies, even though the Saturn has 2 SH-2 CPUs.

No. Mine is still a valid argument. It doesn´t exclude your argument from being right however. Two different cases.
The first 1945 is a much better game of the two on the Saturn BTW.

[ST Dragon]

Actually I did, but people didn't bother reading them.

I didn't know there was 1945 strikers I for the PS-1? Agetec only ported part II.
Any links?

@neorichieb1971
I've never played

Last Bronx
Quake

So I can't tell. Is Quake 1 better on the Saturn compared to the PSX? Frame rate, slowdowns, polygon count & textures?

As for:
Panzer Dragoon 2
Sega rally
Nights

I just tried SEGA Rally & yes its very good.

Panzer Dragoon 2 is awesome & Nights has very good 3D, but the textures in both are lower quality compared to similar PS-1 3D games.


Also Pandemonium 1 & 2 look better on the PSX.

Tekken 3 and Soul Edge were not 100% arcade perfect. RAM restrictions meant cuts on animation big time. Tekken 3 had most of the stages revamped into 2D backgrounds because the RAM limitation didn't allow the arcades 3D backdrops. Besides, comparing a model 2 > Saturn port against a system 11-12 > PS1 is ridiculous.

DOA was better on the Saturn, in fact the PSX version is a totally different game. Tecmo used each of the systems high points to make each version of the game. In the Saturn version, you have hi res backdrops in 3D, in the playstation you have higher polygon counts on the characters which are as tall as the screen, but the backdrops are flat.

The Saturn can do transparencies, it just had to be coded in as opposed to being a built in feature like the PS1 had. Most developers saw more profit and less development time in the PS1 so went that route.

Just because Model 2 is more powerful than System 11-12 doesn't mean its not valid to compare the console ports.
If Daytona, VF, Dead or Alive just couldn't be ported faithfully onto the Saturn due to hardware drawbacks, then they shouldn't have made half quality ports & advertising them as arcade perfect.

I just tried DOA on both PSX & Saturn.
The pseudo 3D Lo-Res background of the Saturn version don't look that better than the PSX flat backgrounds (which are in Hi-Res at least) to justify it being better than the PSX version.
The overall graphics are lo-Res, the character models & textures look bad, the explosions are not transparent & the game is a bit slower & not as responsive.
So the PSX version is just simply better imo.

@JP

As for versions of game comparisons:
Of the 29 shmups the Saturn and PS1 share, 8 are better on the Saturn and 6 are better on the PS1. The rest are identical.

Which are these 29 shmups, the 8 better on the Saturn & 6 on the PSX?

[jp]

Better on Saturn:
01. Darius Gaiden
02. Gunbird
03. Gokujyo Parodius Da! Deluxe Pack
04. Sengoku Blaede
05. Shienryu
06. Soukyugurentai
07. Strikers 1945
08. Thunder Force V

Better on PS1/PS2:
09. Detana Twinbee Yahho Deluxe Pack (I think?)
10. Donpachi
11. Dodonpachi
12. In the Hunt
13. Layer Section 2/Raystorm
14. Strikers 1945 II

Equivalent on both:
15. Arcade Gears: Image Fight/X-Multiply
16. Bokan To Ippatsu Doronboo Kanpekiban
17. Capcom Generation 1
18. Capcom Generation 3
19. Capcom Generation 4
20. Cho Aniki
21. Gradius Deluxe Pack
22. Jikkyo Oshaberi Parodius
23. Konami MSX Antiques Ultra Pack
24. Salamander Deluxe Pack Plus
25. Sexy Parodius
26. Sonic Wings Special
27. Sol Divide
28. Space Invaders
29. Super Dimensional Fortress Macross: Do You Remember Love?

[llabnip]

Tekken 3 and Soul Edge were not 100% arcade perfect. RAM restrictions meant cuts on animation big time.

I wouldn't say big-time on Tekken 3 - some animation was cut and some backgrounds were tapered a bit... but the bulk of the animation and graphics were left in and what's there looks great. I played that forever in the Arcades. When I saw the PSX port, I was floored. It was an amazing conversion - as close to Arcade Perfect as that beast was going to get with a minimum of load time and wonderful visuals and gameplay that remained in-tact. I'd say it was better than arcade perfect - with tons of extras, new modes, mini-games and the home port of Tekken 3 shone brightly (and is still an impressive game... I got Tekken Tag on the PS2 and was surprised how little the game and visuals have advanced). I'm sort of burned out on the gameplay of the Tekken series... but when you look at what they did on the PSX with Tekken 3, you can't help but be completely amazed.

Anyway, we've all seen examples of great 3D on the Saturn and great 2D on the PSX. It comes down to programming effort.

[ST Dragon]

Was Strikers 1945 ever ported to the PS-1? I thought only part 2 was?
How is it better on the Saturn?

What's better on Gokujyo Parodius Da! Deluxe Pack (Saturn)?
I've played them both but don't see any significant difference.?!

i was surprised that Thunder Force V looked worse on the PSX (Seeing as its in 3D). But it didn't suffer from slowdowns atleast & it had one of the coolest intros to date in a shmup.

Overall didn't the PS-1 have more Shmups than the Saturn?

[Palmer Eldritch]

So I can't tell. Is Quake 1 better on the Saturn compared to the PSX? Frame rate, slowdowns, polygon count & textures?

Quake is amazing on the Saturn. Programmed by Lobotomy, using the same engine that was created specifically for Powerslave, entitled Slavedriver, everything runs quite smoothly. Probably runs at a constant 30fps.
Lighting is great too and looks even better than the PC version at times.

As for the PSX version, I wouldn´t know. In fact, I didn´t even know it came out for the PSX....

--Michael

[theevilfunkster]

So I can't tell. Is Quake 1 better on the Saturn compared to the PSX? Frame rate, slowdowns, polygon count & textures?

Quake is amazing on the Saturn. Programmed by Lobotomy, using the same engine that was created specifically for Powerslave, entitled Slavedriver, everything runs quite smoothly. Probably runs at a constant 30fps.
Lighting is great too and looks even better than the PC version at times.

As for the PSX version, I wouldn´t know. In fact, I didn´t even know it came out for the PSX....

--Michael

Quake 2 did, I didnt like it though. Lobotomy were awesome. their prorts of Duke Nukem 3D and Quake were amazing. Shame they're not around any more

[ST Dragon]

Wasn't the best console port of Quake 1 & Duke 3D supposed to be the N64 ports?

[jp]

Wasn't the best console port of Quake 1 & Duke 3D supposed to be the N64 ports?

Saturn version of Duke 3D had online play. And the guys above are right, Quake was amazing on the Saturn.

[theevilfunkster]

Wasn't the best console port of Quake 1 & Duke 3D supposed to be the N64 ports?

Quake N64 was a good port in terms of the graphics but it was missing a lot of levels, I remember Duke Nukem 3D being pretty good (especially the split screen deathmatch) but it's been a few years since i've played it. I just had a go on the Saturn version and it's still ace.

[ST Dragon]

What about these queries:

Was Strikers 1945 ever ported to the PS-1? I thought only part 2 was?
How is it better on the Saturn?

What's better with Gokujyo Parodius Da! Deluxe Pack on the Saturn?
I've played them both but don't see any significant difference.?!

Overall didn't the PS-1 have more Shmups than the Saturn?

Thanks in advance.