Gradius Rebirth (WiiWare)

[Aru-san]

To me it's simply sad that people in the industry are going back to making pseudo nes titles because they're not only greedy but also lack the cojones to come up with new designs/ideas.

Hey, it's the consumer's money they're getting, and so long as the title evens out the production value, they stay alive producing more games (which can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the games)

The lack of space for dlc is due to Nintendo's lack of vision when it comes to digital distribution. It should be up to them to solve the problem instead of forcing the devs to come up with desperate solutions of their own.

Would it really be considered a desperate solution? I consider this "working around limitations", unless there's more to it than just mere limitation.

[the2bears]

Megaman 9 is creative stagnation and backwards thinking at it worst.
To me it's simply sad that people in the industry are going back to making pseudo nes titles because they're not only greedy but also lack the cojones to come up with new designs/ideas.

Actually I congratulate them for having the guts to go back to the basics. It would have been far easier for them to sell an overdone HD graphics showcase than this.

Bill

[lgb]

We need backwards thinking right now, everyone thinks millions of FPSs and GTA are the way to go. (I just don't like GTA)

Good to see that Konami continues the strange trend that's been hinted to by Capcom. Hopefully there's something really weird in there. Not that I'm expecting it, as it's probably just a budget release, but stranger things have happened.

Odd that the powerup bar's compressed a bit, maybe it's a minor test of memory.

[kengou]

"Gameplay is all that matters in the end, simple as that."

No, gameplay alone is not all that matters. Otherwise they would SELL rougelikes with ascii characters instead of graphics. For a commercial product it's the whole package that matters and gameplay is the core part of it.

I completely disagree with this statement. I would pay for ASCII roguelikes if they're good. Gameplay is ALL that matters. Good graphics are a nice bonus.

However, your statement is indicative of the mainstream gaming community that does view graphics as important as gameplay (if not more important). In that sense, you're right that such games wouldn't actually sell as other than "retro throwback game omg!" I'm just surprised to see this viewpoint on these forums of all places which celebrate older games with 2D graphics.

[SeashoreandHorizon]

Well, graphics in a way.. can add to the gameplay.

It can be part of the gameplay.

Depending on the context.

[320x240]

I'm just surprised to see this viewpoint on these forums of all places which celebrate older games with 2D graphics.

But there is such a thing as new 2d graphics. Look at what Nintendo has done with the new Wario game or what are doing. The Wii support a resolution of 640x480 right? Why not make a new game with shiny 2d graphics in that resolution? The game would still be considered 'retro' and be marketed to the same audience.

Imagine if this game was not part of a classic series - what would it's main selling point be? Low-res graphics upscaled to mid-res? Most people on here wouldn't give a damn.

[Necronom]

"I would pay for ASCII roguelikes if they're good."

Got a surprise for you, you don't have to. Dwarf Fortress is good and free. Just donate.

"I'm just surprised to see this viewpoint on these forums of all places which celebrate older games with 2D graphics."

Since you seem to have some serious problems reading and understanding my posts let me simplify it one last time:

2D = good, not a problem at all
Cave, Odin Sphere = 2D, commercial standard 2008
Megaman 9 = 2D, commercial standard 1980s, cheap and half assed effort to capitalize on the current "retro trend".

You think a "new nes rom" for download is worth 10 $ in 2008? Fine, go ahead and spend your money...just don't expect them to invest in proper 2D art because you know...it's all about gameplay after all;-)

[kengou]

"I would pay for ASCII roguelikes if they're good."

Got a surprise for you, you don't have to. Dwarf Fortress is good and free. Just donate.

"I'm just surprised to see this viewpoint on these forums of all places which celebrate older games with 2D graphics."

Since you seem to have some serious problems reading and understanding my posts let me simplify it one last time:

2D = good, not a problem at all
Cave, Odin Sphere = 2D, commercial standard 2008
Megaman 9 = 2D, commercial standard 1980s, cheap and half assed effort to capitalize on the current "retro trend".

You think a "new nes rom" for download is worth 10 $ in 2008? Fine, go ahead and spend your money...just don't expect them to invest in proper 2D art because you know...it's all about gameplay after all;-)

First, thanks for the recommendation, but I'm having plenty of fun with Nethack. If Nethack weren't free, though, I would pay for it because it's a good game. I'm very happy it's free. Here's a surprise for you, then: there are plenty of 3D games, many that look quite good, that are also free. There are also many free games that are very fun, and in some cases much better than commercial games. Being free doesn't automatically mean a game isn't good.

I'm not a huge megaman fan myself but I see no problem if they want to make the game have NES graphics. It'll be a new game with new levels. If the original Megaman was a good game, and they want to make another one with the same graphics, then why shouldn't they charge for it? The game was good back then (assuming you liked it), why wouldn't a new one be good now? What changed?

In fact, what's so different between what they're doing with Megaman 9 and what they do with games nowadays? Half-Life 2, HL2: Episode 1 and HL2: Episode 2 all run on the same engine with a (relatively) similar level of graphics. They all offer different levels and storylines and enemies but they all look the same basically. And yet, they're still each amazing games (in my humble opinion). Just because Valve didn't decide to upgrade Episode 2 with better graphics (which they could have done; Source is about 4 years old now) doesn't mean Ep. 2 wasn't incredibly good.

If Gradius Rebirth is a new game, with new levels and all that, and it's well-designed, then it's a good game, period. If you liked the older 2D gradius games, would you dislike the new one simply because it looks the same? Why is it suddenly not as good a game if Konami chose not to improve the graphics? The old ones were good. They don't become less good over time just because other games coming out have better graphics.

I might be having trouble clearly articulating my viewpoint, but just to reiterate: graphics DO NOT MATTER. AT ALL. ZILCH. If Konami decides to use the Gradius III engine for the graphics, that doesn't mean they're doing a "half-assed" game, because they're making A NEW GAME (hopefully). I play Gradius for the level design, the gameplay, the powerups, the bosses, etc., etc. I don't play it to look at high-res sprites. Maybe you do, but I can't say I understand that point of view myself.

[No_not_like_Quake]

It's Gradius. That's good. It's a fucking weiner-ware game, you can't expect that much for the graphics.

[TLDragoon]

I won't comment on Rebirth until seeing more of it. A still may not reflect what it looks like in motion.

As for MM9, the series, IMO, began to stagnate after 3, at least up until 7. New set of bosses, new plot points (if you can call them that) that were really pointless and never developed, maybe a new form of movement, or not. If 7 & 8 were bad games (and I'm not saying they are) it had nothing to do with the graphics. If 9 is a good game, it will also have nothing to do with the graphics. However, this idea being thrown out by Capcom, to an extent, and others that somehow returning to 8-bit will somehow be a Golden Path (sorry, I'm watching Children of Dune at the moment) for the series is, well, rather absurd.

Capcom could use their resources to push the series--heck 2D platformers--to a new level, but I suppose that talent left with Clover .

Half-Life 2, HL2: Episode 1 and HL2: Episode 2 all run on the same engine with a (relatively) similar level of graphics. They all offer different levels and storylines and enemies but they all look the same basically. And yet, they're still each amazing games (in my humble opinion). Just because Valve didn't decide to upgrade Episode 2 with better graphics (which they could have done; Source is about 4 years old now) doesn't mean Ep. 2 wasn't incredibly good.

Not exactly a good analogy. If Episode 2 had used HL 1's graphics, then the comparison would fit, but it's not. It's using the most current source engine (which does have improvements since HL2). Given that, MM9 would have to use the most current Mega Man engine (not counting X or the other off shoots) which would be 8.

[gameoverDude]

This is what I can see Gradius IV looking like if it were a 1992 Neo-Geo game. Not much of a problem with this considering it's a WiiWare game- I'm not really expecting Gaiden 2. I wonder if this is supposed to be a non-canon Gradius game in an alternate timeline.

We need more screen shots. The screen shot seems abit grainy, and the actual game may look better.

[Ed Oscuro]

Hopefully it's not just "Gradius I Retro Tyme."

Which wouldn't be wholly unexpected, given Konami's recent track record.

*glares at unopened Konami Online Games controller*

But as others (and I) have said before, they're not going to pull out the stops for a download-only game. It doesn't make financial sense.

[Gungriffon Geona]

As for MM9, the series, IMO, began to stagnate after 3, at least up until 7. New set of bosses, new plot points (if you can call them that) that were really pointless and never developed, maybe a new form of movement, or not. If 7 & 8 were bad games (and I'm not saying they are) it had nothing to do with the graphics. If 9 is a good game, it will also have nothing to do with the graphics. However, this idea being thrown out by Capcom, to an extent, and others that somehow returning to 8-bit will somehow be a Golden Path (sorry, I'm watching Children of Dune at the moment) for the series is, well, rather absurd.

they're just kinda having fun with shit. And I don't really blame them. I can see why Inafune seems to have such huge boastings about the game, it's simple and to the point. not trying to be a huge bells and whistles deal, and having an honest feel of what made the NES games fun. (which is being retardedly hard and making you work to beat them, all while being fair.) I'm going to enjoy it, especially with something as classic as this to go with it:

[pablumatic]

Rebirth in the title implies that the series died. Did Gradius V bomb? I don't see too many copies of the game going for cheap online. Especially in brand new condition.

[Volteccer_Jack]

I'll agree that a new game should look good, even in 2D, such as Odin Sphere.

However, I take issue with the idea that lower-quality graphics==lower quality visuals. Graphically, MegaMan 8 makes a fool out of MegaMan 3. But MegaMan 3 is much more pleasing to look at while actually playing.

[Dylan1CC]

Wow. The internet sure can be full of joyless cynics with senses of entitlement. It irritates me that this thread matches some of the IGN user comments for MM9 I read last week which also had a few people griping "This is a rip off!!! I wants XBL style enhancz0orced 2.5/3D models!!!" One guy even had the audacity to say he should get the game free since he can download the roms any time he wants. Hmmmm. This is about as mature as saying that George Lucas should've given free DVDs of the special edition releases to people who already had the OT on VHS.

Inafune said they went with NES graphics again because A)It's a digital download and he spcifically said if they had made it as a disc release it WOULD have had modern/HD visuals. B)They can see many gamers still love 8 bit visuals. Who isn't just as fond of MM 2's sprites as they are now? So if in his mind he is simply showing affection for his older creations while giving what folks like me want, it is dumb to fault him for it as "just a retro cash in." No, but seriously, don't fall for that "lame mainstream retro trend"! Yeah, Inafune is just releasing this game for all those posers who wear Nintendo shirts from hot topic. That must be it.

That Capcom is willing to make a *brand new NES* title instead of simply recycling the MM 8/Bass art style is not just great in a nostalgic sense, but a breath of fresh air! Would you really be annoyed if Nintendo would follow suit and made brand new 8-bit Mario, Metroid or Zelda installments (I doubt they will though, as the 08 "press conference of insanity" showed us, Wiiware is not a high priority for them)? Of course I would love to see a new SMB or Yoshi's Island with the Wario Shake It treatment. But in MM's case, we've already had several installments with hand drawn visuals.

Heck, I got on the phone and called my brother right after the trailer. "Wow, sweet. Look at that mecha elephant, ohhh a new fire dragon boss, nice!" It felt like I was a kid again drooling over a Mega Man 4 preview in an early 90s EGM spread. As long as it's better than 6 I'll be eager to play it.

As for Gradius Rebirth, I will admit I'm not impressed yet. But that's mainly Konami's fault and has nothing to do with the pseudo 16-bit graphics (again, why all the complaints about 8/16 bit sprites making a small comeback?). Simply showing ONE small screen shot of a vanilla Moai stage is not how to promote a new Gradius title. Hopefully it's not just a remake of the first, if so I won't buy it. I still have a lot of work to do on both Gaiden and V.

Anyways, I'm with Kengou on this one.

[TLDragoon]

Would you really be annoyed if Nintendo would follow suit and made brand new 8-bit Mario, Metroid or Zelda installments?

For Metroid and Zelda, yes I would be quite annoyed. Metroid 3 and Zelda 3 were improvements in every way compared to the earlier games. Why would I want to play a "sequel" that regresses, especially to the degree that an 8-bit game would, on a console that is clearly capable of much more?

Mario, don't know. NSMB, while fun, was a far cry from SM3 and SMW in scope. But given a choice between a game done in SMW's style or SM3's style, I'll choose SMW.

[Dylan1CC]

^^^^

How would they automatically "regress" if they were done with 8-bit visuals? Miyamoto and Tezuka's teams couldn't do anything new or interesting if they returned to an 8-bit environment? How would you know? OK, Shake It is on hardware much more advanced than the NES yet one could say it's "just a new Wario Land where you shake the remote to get more coins." And new 8bit Metroid and Zelda = "cash in" yet a new 8-bit Mario would somehow be exempt from your criticism simply because you like anyone else prefer SMW's sprites to NSMB's graphics? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

All this silly psychological backlash against "the man/big company trying to take my money" yet if it's a small company like Treasure making new games with old visuals they get a pass. Yeah, I think I'll skip Bangaioh Spirits. The DS is not as powerful as the DC so surely the gameplay has regressed.

[TLDragoon]

^^^^

How would they automatically "regress" if they were done with 8-bit visuals? Miyamoto and Tezuka's teams couldn't do anything new or interesting if they returned to an 8-bit environment? How would you know? Based on your argument, Shake It is just a cash in because it's "just a new Wario Land where you shake the remote to get more coins." And new 8bit Metroid and Zelda = cash in yet a new 8-bit Mario would somehow exempt from your argument simply because you like anyone else prefer sprites to NSMB's graphics? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I still say this is just a bunch of silly psychological backlash against "the man/big company trying to take my money" yet if it's a small company like Treasure making new games with old visuals they get a pass.

The graphics would be a regression, obviously. 8-bit can only accomplish so much when it comes to detail. Whether or not it would affect the how the game plays remains to be seen. Are there other limitations that the 8-bit decision would impose on the gameplay?

And at no time did I say I preferred the sprites of SMB3 and SMW to the 3D graphics of NSMB. I said it was a far cry from them in scope (level design, branching paths, etc.) That would be the reason I would take the older games compared to it. Sorry if I didn't make it clear. But then, that's not the fault of the graphics, but the failure of the devs to produce compelling level design up to par with the prior games.

[Dylan1CC]

^^^^

OK, other than "HD graphics are more advanced on a technical level than sprites," (duh) you don't make a lot of sense. No offense but I'm now done replying to you on this.

[orange]

the moral of the story here is megaman 8 is amazing and secondly fuck anyone who doesn't like it

[zubiri]

follow this link
Translated by google translator, it isn't very accurate so you have to break your brains a bit to understand. You can't get much better translators.

(Holy insanely long URL, Batman! Shortened it. -Ghegs)

[Ed Oscuro]

You can't get much better translators.

http://www.ocn.ne.jp/translation/

[TLDragoon]

^^^^

OK, other than "HD graphics are more advanced on a technical level than sprites," (duh) you don't make a lot of sense. No offense but I'm now done replying to you on this.

Good, because you keep mentioning things I never said in my posts.

[FSR]

Here are some new screenshots (URL found on neogaf)
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/wii/wiiware/wgdj/index.html#

[mice]

This looks smashin!
Nuff said.

[szycag]

Looks good. I like the Tri-Moai stage.

[Alec]

yeah rad. both gradius and mega man

[Klatrymadon]

The organic 'Cell' stage there could be the one from Gofer no Yabou Episode II given a new lick of paint. It might just be extremely similar, though.

All of these ideas and stage themes are over-familiar, really, but I can't knock a new Gradius for under £10!

[RuffNEC]

Is this coming on 2. September for the Regions US and Europe too ?