A serious note about Last Hope

[szycag]

What I did was childish, yes. I tried to be civil but with all the selective reading going on I had just had enough.

Last Hope is only going to appeal to a few people. The more you try and stick up for your game the more upset you are going to be. Saying less is saying more. I took my "review" down because you were right, it was not a true review, and whatever it was, it has served its purpose anyways. Do you even have the ability to do that? Do you ever make any concessions? That you haven't conceded about the controller customization issue is just appalling.

Maybe the world does need shmups that feel like studying for calculus exams, if only as a reference point, so just keep doing what you're doing, NG:Dev.

[christuserloeser]

Maybe the world does need shmups

Oh, I am sure it does!

[RHE]

What I did was childish, yes. I tried to be civil but with all the selective reading going on I had just had enough.

Last Hope is only going to appeal to a few people. The more you try and stick up for your game the more upset you are going to be. Saying less is saying more. I took my "review" down because you were right, it was not a true review, and whatever it was, it has served its purpose anyways. Do you even have the ability to do that? Do you ever make any concessions? That you haven't conceded about the controller customization issue is just appalling.

Maybe the world does need shmups that feel like studying for calculus exams, if only as a reference point, so just keep doing what you're doing, NG:Dev.

Now you've gained a litle respect from me.

Just only one thing left I'd like to tell you. Playing Mars Matrix/Dodonpachi or what ever seriously on score doesnt' feel any less studying an calculus exam.

So why is that bad with Last Hope?

[Zebra Airforce]

lol, reading a post by Rando is always like that. I'm sure if you had someone else explain it it would be much simpler

[szycag]

Well like I've said before, I play video games for the rush of adrenaline, so it's the pacing of those games that I find more rewarding when I attempt to memorize and make progress. At a slower pace or just too much of a mish-mash of game balance, employing these strategies can feel rote because reflex feels like an afterthought.

[E. Randy Dupre]

Now about === FUN ===: I play shmups for fun and not for === FUN ===. When I want to have === FUN === I will play Bomberman with some friends. Do you see the difference? Shmups are not === FUN === but they're fun. So nobody can expect === FUN === from Last Hope as not even a Cave game is === FUN ===.

Whut?

I like this thread. I like the way that somebody can argue that fun is a subjective term, then, if you say you didn't find his game fun, says that that's because you didn't understand it.

You can't have it both ways.

[Udderdude]

Just only one thing left I'd like to tell you. Playing Mars Matrix/Dodonpachi or what ever seriously on score doesnt' feel any less studying an calculus exam.

So why is that bad with Last Hope?

Playing those games for score is OPTIONAL. You can completely ignore the scoring aspect and still complete them. It's only an exam if you want it to be. Last Hope requires you to do that just to complete it. And no amount of reflexes will save you.

[RHE]

I hope we can discuss on further in this peaceful tone, without displaying pictures of ugly men or food.

Well like I've said before, I play video games for the rush of adrenaline, so it's the pacing of those games that I find more rewarding when I attempt to memorize and make progress. At a slower pace or just too much of a mish-mash of game balance, employing these strategies can feel rote because reflex feels like an afterthought.

Do you know what? Last Hope gives me some kind of the feeling you describing it. It just feels right for me while most manic games don't. It's just about taste. Everybody is fine with that as long as you know ther're different tastes.

I like the way that somebody can argue that fun is a subjective term, then, if you say you didn't find his game fun, says that that's because you didn't understand it.

You can't have it both ways.

Everytime a game is not fun, then there's a subjective reason for it. Some poeple take it as it is and some poeple would like to know why they don't enjoy it. Also, to most people there are some kind of two ways having fun. The one is to spending time with a game end enjoying it seriously and the other fun is to have a mindless quick fun.

It's like that: An 1 hour ist just 1 hour but if you have fun then it feels like 1minute. It's completly subjective.

Playing those games for score is OPTIONAL. You can completely ignore the scoring aspect and still complete them. It's only an exam if you want it to be. Last Hope requires you to do that just to complete it. And no amount of reflexes will save you.

I know this. What I'm saying now is just a philliosphy and not a statement to make anyone feeling offendend so read it carefully.

I think a game should have on way to play it right or both ways should clear from beginning.

I mean yes, you can have fun with Mars Matrix and ignoring it's scoring aspects but the game is built around its scoring exspect so it will harldy be as fun as with scoring. That's why it is a scoring shooter.

However, a game where playing it differently is not a option but a must is not nessecery a bad thing. I think it's good that Last Hope teaches the player to play it right just as Ikaruga. It's just an personal opinion on both ways have their justification.

[nimitz]

Arguing with RHE is like arguing with a 6 year old kid, it can go on forever as long as you feed him.



On a more serious note,

I play my dreamcast using an arcade stick, with seimitsu and sanwa parts. That is indeed better than anything avaible for the dreamcast. That means I have to use a converter/adapter to plug it in my dreamcast. I use an adapter which is almost lag-free and i don't want to switch it.

The "problem" is that my adapter doesn't map the 1 & 2 buttons of my stick to the main A & B buttons of the dreamcast (not sure is theres a 3rd button with Last Hope and DUX) but does that mean I have to play using an akward config just because there is no control mapping option.

[jpj]

it means you're a tart.

why didn't you just mod (or buy a modded) DC stick?

it's last hope's fault that you have a shit adaptor?

mr blobby comment was gold, RHE

[szycag]

Do you know what? Last Hope gives me some kind of the feeling you describing it. It just feels right for me while most manic games don't. It's just about taste. Everybody is fine with that as long as you know ther're different tastes.

I agree

[Zebra Airforce]

why didn't you just mod (or buy a modded) DC stick?
it's last hope's fault that you have a shit adaptor?

Can you still enjoy the smell of your farts with your nose so high in the air?

Developers have a singular responsibility to make the game playing experience as comfortable as possible to the player. A player shouldn't need a new adaptor, and shouldn't need another stick when the entire problem can be circumvented so easily on the part of the programmer.

[doctorx0079]

Several things have become clear to me here. Last Hope is pretty unique, and it's exactly the kind of game RHE likes. Maybe even more so than DUX.

[christuserloeser]

IIRC, you actually can change the default button mapping in Last Hope. Try "Controls" in options.

[jpj]

last hope is shit because it doesn't work with my steering wheel
it's not even light-gun compatible...!

Developers have a singular responsibility to make the game playing experience as comfortable as possible to the player

responsibility!?
a developer's job is just to make money. anything above that falls into the realm of 'what-you-would-like'.

anyways - please continue the jihad

[shoe-sama]

What I did was childish, yes. I tried to be civil but with all the selective reading going on I had just had enough.

Last Hope is only going to appeal to a few people. The more you try and stick up for your game the more upset you are going to be. Saying less is saying more. I took my "review" down because you were right, it was not a true review, and whatever it was, it has served its purpose anyways. Do you even have the ability to do that? Do you ever make any concessions? That you haven't conceded about the controller customization issue is just appalling.

Maybe the world does need shmups that feel like studying for calculus exams, if only as a reference point, so just keep doing what you're doing, NG:Dev.

Now you've gained a litle respect from me.

Just only one thing left I'd like to tell you. Playing Mars Matrix/Dodonpachi or what ever seriously on score doesnt' feel any less studying an calculus exam.

So why is that bad with Last Hope?

what
MM and GW is about trying to squeeze as many items as possible out of the game to increase your stage chains

holy shit

you can make new stage paths to get even more items

lurn2ply

[shoe-sama]

[nimitz]

It looks like a pyramid.

or is it a hole?

[Zebra Airforce]

It's the high speed stage from Gradius III!

[BIL]

ALERT

Fantasy Land falls into crisis now!!

[The Coop]

[it290]

Wow, that is hella cool.

Just only one thing left I'd like to tell you. Playing Mars Matrix/Dodonpachi or what ever seriously on score doesnt' feel any less studying an calculus exam.

You may have something there; actually, one of the major criticisms of DDP is that it is too stringent, and doesn't allow the player enough chances for creativity/improvisation. You'll get various viewpoints, on that, but it is considered one of the game's flaws, FWIW.

The nice thing, though, is that both games allow the player to start out by 'just playing' and probably still doing okayish in terms of survival without punishing them too much during the learning process. Then, if they decide they like the game, they can explore the depth of the scoring system. Last Hope, OTOH, does not do this. It's either straight-up work and perserverence all the way through or 'screw it, I'm playing something else'. There's really no gray area, and this is a problem as I see it.

[RHE]

To the poeple I were offseting about hating Last Hope - remind why I'm doing this thread. People were constantly coming up with the idea that Last Hope must be a complete failure and I'm denying it. Those people were/are knocking on my door, so I were/are telling them my point of view. I hope no one feels offended.

You may have something there; actually, one of the major criticisms of DDP is that it is too stringent, and doesn't allow the player enough chances for creativity/improvisation. You'll get various viewpoints, on that, but it is considered one of the game's flaws, FWIW.

The nice thing, though, is that both games allow the player to start out by 'just playing' and probably still doing okayish in terms of survival without punishing them too much during the learning process. Then, if they decide they like the game, they can explore the depth of the scoring system. Last Hope, OTOH, does not do this. It's either straight-up work and perserverence all the way through or 'screw it, I'm playing something else'. There's really no gray area, and this is a problem as I see it.

Finally there's an argument against Last Hope. To the same time it shows, there's no game that's is perfect in every way and regardless which way the game choosed it will fail in some or another aspect for some or another person. The more shmups existing the higher chance someone will find something suitable.

Every game must exist.

[Ed Oscuro]

RHE is like one of those people who marries somebody and spends the rest of their life trying to change them.

Except with more sales data and less rat poison.

[undamned]

Every game must exist.

Many games do exist, but no game must exist.
-ud

[szycag]

R-Type Tactics in real time

[ROBOTRON]

People rag on last hope, not sure why.

Personally I liked it even though it was extremely hard. I liked the visuals and certainly the music which was inspiring.

I've seen worse games out there...like a few Cave games. I'd play LH over any Cave port anyday (no offense to Cave fans) its just more fun.

The makers of LH obviously put a lot of work and effort into the game and went through a great deal of trouble getting the game in shmup lovers hand at a time where shmups are rare...they should at least get a pat on the back for that. Chaos Field and Trizeal were worse than LH but I don't see anyone running smear campaigns against Milestone...and they shouldn't. Milestone, Neo DEV should be encouraged....their games can only get better and as a player of shmups I will continue to buy whatever games they put out.

LH wasn't perfect, but a dam good first effort...and I enjoyed it.

[nimitz]

I think most of the forum agrees that Trizeal ìs better than Last Hope at least in terms of overall quality. Actually the production value of Chaso Field is also better than Last Hope. The problem with Chaos Field is that the game is actually a pretty bad boss rush mode with horrible scoring mechanics.

Doesn't take 10 seconds of watching a last hope video to realize the whole game screams low-budget. DUX seems to be much better on this aspect.

[ubersaurus]

I think most of the forum agrees that Trizeal ìs better than Last Hope at least in terms of overall quality. Actually the production value of Chaso Field is also better than Last Hope. The problem with Chaos Field is that the game is actually a pretty bad boss rush mode with horrible scoring mechanics.

Doesn't take 10 seconds of watching a last hope video to realize the whole game screams low-budget. DUX seems to be much better on this aspect.

You already said you haven't played LH. I don't think you actually get to say if the game is better than any other game.

[Specineff]

I have played LH, Chaos Field and Trizeal. Chaos Field can be enjoyed or at least tolerated with some effort. Trizeal feels doujin but at least is not unfair. LH is a rape-fest with good music.