Dreamcast Last Hope..any cheats??

[The Coop]

Problem, Erinu?

[RHE]

constantly updating re-releases doesn't look good. It starts making some people feel like the company is using each unadjustable release that must be paid for as a way of getting feedback.

Constantly? 3 versions for 3 different systems during 2 years isn't much. Even if we would do a pink bullet version of LH DC, the people would even more feel like that. That's what I mean.

It starts making some people feel like the company is using each unadjustable release that must be paid for as a way of getting feedback.

But it shouldn't. It's like feeling bad because someone bought a game for a system and a year later it comes for a another system with some extra content or even with slightly improvments. Very often some orignal japanese are come with a improvment when they are released in a different country. That's because they have the time, so they can do that. I never heard much complaining about that. Does it make the japanese release or even the whole company look bad? I never head about that.

Even something as simple as a noticeable pulsating/blinking color effect on the bullets could have taken care of that issue for a good number of people.

That's what the bullets already do in the AES version. The boss enemies even have an audio hitting response but no one seems to notice that, which is understandable. Those things indeedly can be avoided with some play testing. I think a lack of play testing it's nothing you can burden afterwards if something didn't work well yet I agree that play testing should be the normal.

So I still don't understand why that's should be an major issue with Last Hope but not in Gradius 5 or Ibara.

Play testing can make any game considerably better when it's being done by people who know the genre that game is in. That's its purpose.

Easy said but hardly done. Especially when you are an independent developer making games for a official not anymore supported console. If we had asked people if they wanted to play testing our neogoe game, they would either lough or expecting a Fog Feast. Not a single person would have come to that.

The porpouse of play testing is finding bugs and balancing the game. Memorizers doesn't need much balancing, but everyone can feel free to disagree on this. Last Hope is meant to be old-school and comes with all the good and bad. Maybe a bit too much of bad, which players of today doesn't seem to want in modern games anymore. But constantly play testing was completly impossible for us to that time and keeping up with the Cave standard isn't easy either.

Yellow and orange bullets with yellow and orange explosions that put out yellow and orange debris was a questionable way to go artistically

Since you have the rotable pod that's not a problem. What's the different if you have a bullet hell where every bullet kills you or having a semi-bullet hell where only some of the bullets are dangerous?

All the changes that have been made to LH could have been found out about within a couple weeks (tops) if some of the more well versed people on this forum had been given a chance to take part in the play testing before the Neo-Geo version came out.

To make it more comfortable to some players, and nothing more.

Games that get re-released again and again in a short span of time, with adjustments and tweaks that could (and should) have been there in the first place, aren't supposed to be the norm.

Which doesn't apply to Last Hope since there never was a re-release. And wasn't you one of them who wanted the fix?

Nevertheless, I would completely agree with your opinion if we would speak about frequent re-releases and critical bugs. As we don't, I'm not going to understand why people feel bad about this. Even if I try.

[jp]

I didn't have any problem seeing bullets after I spent some time with LH. In fact, I played through LH during my first sitting (not a 1CC mind you, I just found it so ridiculously difficult that I had to see what zaniness awaited around the corner. I literally laughed out loud during stage 3).

But I think all people are asking for RHE, is for a patch to be released in the form of an ISO so that people who bought the game can download the ISO and play the NGCD version on their Dreamcast. Yes, the DC version is much harder than then NGCD version, and I understand you prefer that (as do I), but some people aren't too fond of the intense difficulty.

Which really, I've always found it weird when people complained about the difficulty of games. But eh, thats just me.

[szycag]

Can you explain what you mean when you say "tactical shooting game"? If you've answered this before, sorry. Also, what other shooting games would you call tactical?

[RHE]

Just to clarify, when I speak about play testing I mean external play testing. Naturally, a lot of in-house play testing is needed to make a game good.

I didn't have any problem seeing bullets after I spent some time with LH.

This seems to be the answer of this debate. If you spent some time with the game, you won't have much issues. Most people who complain didn't do this. Which is not necessarily their fault but it's never to late to get used to it.

Can you explain what you mean when you say "tactical shooting game"? If you've answered this before, sorry. Also, what other shooting games would you call tactical?

R-Type Tactics in real-time.

I call all the shooting games tactical which absolutely need strategical and tactical approaching. Pulstar and R-Type are like that but not as heavy as Last Hope. You could call Last Hope just memorizer as well but then you would exclude half of the experience.

[Erinu]

Problem, Erinu?

No not really I guess it's appropriate to argue over a shitty game and it's credentials on these forums. :ibara:

[The Coop]

Wow. This quote pyramid must be shrunk!

Constantly? 3 versions for 3 different systems during 2 years isn't much. Even if we would do a pink bullet version of LH DC, the people would even more feel like that. That's what I mean.

3 tweaked and adjusted versions in a sixteen month period is what's irked a few folks, RHE... especially since the tweaks and such were seen as obvious by those bringing them up.

But it shouldn't. It's like feeling bad because someone bought a game for a system and a year later it comes for a another system with some extra content or even with slightly improvments. Very often some orignal japanese are come with a improvment when they are released in a different country. That's because they have the time, so they can do that. I never heard much complaining about that. Does it make the japanese release or even the whole company look bad? I never head about that.

Actually, I have. The last one I read a good amount of complaints about was the Gamecube version of Resident Evil 4, and how all the new content wasn't playable for them unless they went out and bought the PC/PS2 version as well. I heard the same thing about the changes done in various Final Fantasy games, Dead or Alive games (especially 2), and so forth.

When the releases are years apart, then it's not really an issue for most people. It's when the releases are just months apart, that's when folks start feeling like they got stiffed for content and options.

That's what the bullets already do in the AES version. The boss enemies even have an audio hitting response but no one seems to notice that, which is understandable. Those things indeedly can be avoided with some play testing. I think a lack of play testing it's nothing you can burden afterwards if something didn't work well yet I agree that play testing should be the normal.

So I still don't understand why that's should be an major issue with Last Hope but not in Gradius 5 or Ibara.

Again, I believe it was the colors of the yellow bullets, explosions and shrapnel. Because they were all so similar, some people felt it made the bullets unnecessarily harder to spot when things were blowing up everywhere.

Easy said but hardly done. Especially when you are an independent developer making games for a official not anymore supported console. If we had asked people if they wanted to play testing our neogoe game, they would either lough or expecting a Fog Feast. Not a single person would have come to that.

The porpouse of play testing is finding bugs and balancing the game. Memorizers doesn't need much balancing, but everyone can feel free to disagree on this. Last Hope is meant to be old-school and comes with all the good and bad. Maybe a bit too much of bad, which players of today doesn't seem to want in modern games anymore. But constantly play testing was completly impossible for us to that time and keeping up with the Cave standard isn't easy either.

To me, that shows the naivety of NG:Dev.Team. Play testing is just as important as every other aspect of game creation, and time must be made for it. That you (or they) felt doing this regularly was impossible is not a good thing. Play testing is what helps reveal issues that artists and programmers thought weren't there, or missed because they're constantly involved with the project. As with any art (be it visual or written), a fresh set of eyes and perspectives can catch the things that people who've been constantly exposed to a project miss.

And really, considering that this game was being advertised well before the Neo-Geo release on a forum filled with people who love shmups, and would have been more than happy to offer their services as external play testers (some of whom would bring many years of shmup experience to the table), suggests that NG:Dev.Team didn't try very hard to seek "second opinions" as it were. That you seem to feel people here, of all places, would have laughed at the chance to play test their game, is a bit disheartening and confusing. I know I would have happily done it, and I'll guarantee you there are plenty of others who would have as well. The chance to have your name in the credits, and help out with a real game (and maybe get a free copy of it)? Sounds cool to me.

I know NG:Dev.Team was protective of their baby at the time, but a simple contract that mentioned the testers being sued if they leaked any of the game would have helped to prevent that (maybe not stopped it, but helped prevent it... and possibly resulted in some fresh income for the company ).

Since you have the rotable pod that's not a problem. What's the different if you have a bullet hell where every bullet kills you or having a semi-bullet hell where only some of the bullets are dangerous?

Here's where you loose me a bit. The rotative pod has nothing to do with the artistic choice of making some of the bullets look virtually identical in color to the explosions and shrapnel. I believe that's one of the things that bothered people. And as an artist myself, I can understand their position. It would be like me painting the inside of a box all black, leaving the side open, and expecting the people going by to see the black panther about to leap out at them.

Again, I had no problems blocking and spotting the bullets, but I can see why others would. It was obviously a legitimate concern to someone on the team, though. Why else would we have three versions/modes now? The point I'm trying to make, is that all this could have been pointed out in the beginning, so that all versions had the mode choices.

To make it more comfortable to some players, and nothing more.

Isn't that what was done anyway? Making new modes so the game was more comfortable or accessible to some players, while still keeping the harder modes for other players? I know some people would ask, "Why wasn't that done to begin with?" (which of course, goes back to my external play testers comments).

Which doesn't apply to Last Hope since there never was a re-release.

Actually, it does to me. I see each version of LH as, essentially, a minor update on the previous one. The Neo-Geo version was 1.0. The DC version was 1.1. The Neo-Geo CD version is 1.2. The only difference is, no one who has already bought the game can play the adjusted and updated "final" version without forking out considerably more cash. What was changed was similar in scope to what a patch would address, only this time, it's a fifty dollar patch.

And wasn't you one of them who wanted the fix?

Nope In fact, I was one of the few people stating that I had no problems blocking and spotting the bullets. But just because I didn't have the same problems, doesn't mean I still can't consider a visual choice to be a questionable one when it's brought up.



We may not see eye to eye on this, but hopefully I've explained at least a little of why some people feel as they do about the different versions of Last Hope. I gotta say, it's been a while since I had a good on-line discussion like this. But, I think I've stated my various stances and Devil's Advocate questions about as best I can (or beaten it into the ground enough... however you want to see it). So, unless something new comes up, the last word on all this is yours if you want it, RHE





Erinu- We're not arguing, we're just discussing loudly

[szycag]

R-Type Tactics in real-time.

:?::?:
You can't be serious, that doesn't make any sense at all...

I call all the shooting games tactical which absolutely need strategical and tactical approaching. Pulstar and R-Type are like that but not as heavy as Last Hope. You could call Last Hope just memorizer as well but then you would exclude half of the experience.

I guess you mean just a memorizer with the chance of getting by on sheer reflex turned way down. This is pretty much what I interpreted it as.

[P_HAT]

R-Type Tactics in real-time.

:?::?:
You can't be serious, that doesn't make any sense at all...

God, i'm laughed almost to death when i read this.

[RHE]

This quote pyramid must be shrunk!

Yeah, but as long as you come up with arguments, this won't happen.

3 tweaked and adjusted versions in a sixteen month period is what's irked a few folks, RHE... especially since the tweaks and such were seen as obvious by those bringing them up.

The only thing we made which each port was to make the game easier and not better. It's like we added a lower difficult setting which each version. Less shrapnels, which means less obstacles means easier gameplay.

To me, that shows the naivety of NG:Dev.Team.

And to me it shows the naivety of lot of people regarding game development as we couldn't afford professional in-house testing to that time. That's way too expensive, especially when it should happen constantly. That's one of the reasons why games like Dodonpachi and Ikaruga are more polished and playable by many players is because, those companies have the budget to make this happen.

We had to do all this by ourselfs, and that's one of the reason why the game took a long time and had even more with external play testing. We had the time for in-house play testing and we used it.

And really, considering that this game was being advertised well before the Neo-Geo release on a forum filled with people who love shmups, and would have been more than happy to offer their services as external play testers (some of whom would bring many years of shmup experience to the table), suggests that NG:Dev.Team didn't try very hard to seek "second opinions" as it were. That you seem to feel people here, of all places, would have laughed at the chance to play test their game, is a bit disheartening and confusing. I know I would have happily done it, and I'll guarantee you there are plenty of others who would have as well. The chance to have your name in the credits, and help out with a real game (and maybe get a free copy of it)? Sounds cool to me.

You're right on this. But all this would've changed is that a few people would feel a bit better about a purchase of a game they still couldn't make much fun out of.

That you seem to feel people here, of all places, would have laughed at the chance to play test their game, is a bit disheartening and confusing. I know I would have happily done it, and I'll guarantee you there are plenty of others who would have as well. The chance to have your name in the credits, and help out with a real game (and maybe get a free copy of it)? Sounds cool to me.

I wasn't clear enough. I mean, no one would have had believed us or had interest to make a move to play testing our game if we had asked them, because no one believes that someones does such a game for the neogeo. And even if, then something like Fog Feast is expected, which isn't bad but not a single person would make a move for that.

The rotative pod has nothing to do with the artistic choice of making some of the bullets look virtually identical in color to the explosions and shrapnel. I believe that's one of the things that bothered people.

But it has. The additional explosions are meant to be an obstacle, which you can solve with your pod. If the game didn't have such pod, then I would agree.

I have seen this before Last Hope and after it and I think they will be more games with such effect. So I'm clueless how Ibara has this and Gradius 5 if it a bad choise or could be avided with play testing. It's stange that the in-house and external play testers of the mentioned games didn't complain about that.

Isn't that what was done anyway?

Only because their was a lot of moaning. In the first place all the people complaining that we didn't listen to their critism and now they maon, that we listened but they lack of NGCD. It's the same with the Ketsui port. First there was maoning, that there's no port in sight and then its for the wrong system.

The only difference is, no one who has already bought the game can play the adjusted and updated "final" version without forking out considerably more cash.

The final version is the AES cartidge, which is evailbale at the DC version

And that again the whole problem I have with this discussion, the NGCD version is not better per se, it's just slighty more comfortable. Players only will need that comfort when they are spoiled.

But, I think I've stated my various stances and Devil's Advocate questions about as best I can (or beaten it into the ground enough... however you want to see it). So, unless something new comes up, the last word on all this is yours if you want it, RHE.

When people feel bad about that we made some changes with every port, then they can feel bad about it. I never would do that, because it doesn't make much sense. As you said, only a few people are irked about that, which isn't enough to make a big thing out of it. Paying for an product also doesn't justify to affront a developer. When I'm not happy with a purchase, I sell it.

We will consider external play testing by experienced shmup players with our next game anyway. So I'm pretty much done with this but I'm still open for a disussion if wanted.

[320x240]

Isn't the bottom line here that it is futile to have a discussion over the various gameplay mechanics the developers chose to implement and that the discussion should be about how well they are implemented?

[Plasmo]

People shouldn't complain about minor improvements from one port to another but should be happy about any changes/improvements at all. Most Shmup ports stay the same when ported to another system.

[God]

cheats for a shmup? what?!

I can't even think of a cheat that would keep a shmup fun or meaningful in any way....

Gradius