Shmups- Progression? Regression? Depression?

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:29 pm

We see games coming out with high end processing all of the time and realistic physics. My question is how could shmups improve? They don't need physics and our modern bullet hell shmups are pushing our human computation skills. Aside from maybe some graphical effect I think we have everything we need. That's not to say that somebody cannot innovate.

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:39 pm

fuck, I can´t find the proper term.

I think that the genre has reached enough depth to argue that no really major improvements can be made anymore outside different scoring possibilities or graphic improvements.

In 2d there´s only a finite number of bullet patterns which one can think of (I hope someone proves me wrong there though).

The basis of the genre is there and anything new could only be variation sorts.

-I need some sleep for coherent thinking here I think though-

Pixel_Outlaw · Post by **Pixel_Outlaw** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:41 pm

There are infinate bullet patterns if one considers angle, speed, screen resolution, and number of bullets part of the pattern. People would argue that computer variables have precision limits but you can create your own if need be.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:41 pm

I wouldn't mind seeing some modern games come out with Zanac-style 'AI'.

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:43 pm

Is the title a Front 242 reference, because it sounds like it.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:47 pm

Euroshmups are the future!

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:48 pm

doctorx0079 wrote:Is the title a Front 242 reference, because it sounds like it.

Would be way too hardcore now wouldn´t it...?

searches to record collection...

Post by **Shatterhand** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:39 pm

it290 wrote:I wouldn't mind seeing some modern games come out with Zanac-style 'AI'.

I think this could be interesting. Rank does something similar, but that's not the same thing.

Zanac's AI is more like, watch how the player plays the game, and then strike him on the player wekest point. If today processors shmups could have some real nasty ai.

Of course, people hate randomness on shmups, so I guess it wouldn't be a welcome feature

Udderdude · Post by **Udderdude** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:25 pm

Shatterhand wrote:Of course, people hate randomness on shmups, so I guess it wouldn't be a welcome feature

AI is not randomness. If you play the same way, it will react the same way. Unless you put randomness into your AI. And some people do like randomness in shmups .. look at Kenta Cho games, etc

I think the only way for shmups to progress now is more interesting scoring systems and gameplay ideas that haven't been explored yet. The genre has been explored pretty deeply though .. there aren't a whole ton of new or original ideas out there that are actually fun. And I do think the 'lol 200 zillion bullets' being the only thing making a shmup difficult is getting a little old.

MathU · Post by **MathU** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:27 pm

Analog movement.

doctorx0079 · Post by **doctorx0079** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:39 pm

Super Laydock wrote:
doctorx0079 wrote:Is the title a Front 242 reference, because it sounds like it.
Would be way too hardcore now wouldn´t it...?

searches to record collection...

I think it's Gripped By Fear from Tyranny For You. That's just what I heard in my head when I read the thread topic. I think the actual words are a little different.

worstplayer · Post by **worstplayer** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:50 pm

MathU wrote:Analog movement.

Good idea, as long as there isn't inertia.

Fenrir · Post by **Fenrir** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:55 pm

There's so much still to do that the mind boggles.
I remember the first time I saw Virtua Racing at its debut in the arcades, I looked at my friends all teary-eyed and said "technology can't go much further than this, it's perfection". They all agreed.

The boundaries are limitless. It's hard to imagine a game like Ikaruga until someone does it. And what about a game in which you aren't a spaceship but an entity that skips from enemy spacechip to enemy spaceship, turning the spaceship you invade to the spaceship you control... the possibilities are infinite.
What about a full-360° shmup in which you rotate 360° the visuals to penetrate through spheric bullet patterns with nothing but a few openings.

Shmups can improve with technology. Oh hells yeah.

UnscathedFlyingObject · Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:17 pm

I'm depressed at this forum. People can't even post stuff in the right section anymore.

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:32 pm

Yeah. I bet you wish the Ketsui Xbox360 thread was in the Trading Station.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:47 pm

it290 wrote:I wouldn't mind seeing some modern games come out with Zanac-style 'AI'.

Ibara

it290 · Post by **it290** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:50 pm

Yeah, Ibara is probably the closest thing at the moment. Also not coincidentally one of my favorite Cave titles.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:55 pm

Battle Garegga just took Zanac to its logical extreme. Two color palette aside, I don't see why a lot of Zanac fans hate it so much.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Thu May 01, 2008 12:07 am

Topic needs moar poll to be a proper thread parody :D

Somebody out there could make a shmup that had different underlying assumptions. Like a U.S. -shmup with all the scoring opportunities spelt out. Like Major Stryker:

- When you're damaged while using increased firepower, only your fire options are damaged, so increasing your firepower adds to your defense!

- Collect lots of "M" icons for free mans! May be used as an alternate score counter.

- Save your mission after each map! Load when you don't do as well as you wished!

Uhh, well, maybe that's not perfect.

But I would still like to see an alternate style of shmupping that's viable...too bad it hasn't really appeared yet...

trivial · Post by **trivial** » Thu May 01, 2008 1:14 am

Doujin shmups made for 640 x 480 rez, which often have polygonal rendering and animation, could be much improved by higher framerates and resolutions. My CRT would adore 120Hz at 1152 x 864. LCD's will be joining the party soon with 1080p120, which just got ratified for HDMI.

Fast, dynamic patterns need all the help they can get to be "read" as quickly as possible. I'm not thinking of Touhou, more like rRootage or Warning Forever or Samidare.

Ed Oscuro · Post by **Ed Oscuro** » Thu May 01, 2008 1:42 am

trivial wrote:My CRT would adore 120Hz at 1152 x 864.

Lol, I remember when I used that on a P110...last resolution I used in games before I went to native 1600x1200. Only went to 85 Hz though.

Davey · Post by **Davey** » Thu May 01, 2008 2:26 am

Technology might be a constraint to a certain degree, but I think the big issues now are creativity and business justification. Shmups are already a niche genre, so the few companies that still make them aren't going to want to take a risk on something that might not work. There are a few old threads discussing this.

OTOH, people making doujins have the freedom to try out crazy new ideas. But coming up with new ideas is easy; implementing those ideas into a fun, balanced game is a different story altogether.

Thunder Force · Post by **Thunder Force** » Thu May 01, 2008 3:02 am

Super Laydock wrote:I think that the genre has reached enough depth to argue that no really major improvements can be made anymore outside different scoring possibilities or graphic improvements.

Hmm.... have to disagree, imo the shmup genre is far too conservative. There's myriad potential for bold, daring, and different ways of making shmups now, that are not yet being created. The genre could explode in new directions with an influx of new thought, now that creative visions are no longer bound by the cpu and control interface constraints of the 80s & 90s. The underlying assumptions of the genre need to be challenged and broken more often. Infinite refinements of earlier ideas need to stop being the focus. There is more potential in this genre than just bullet dodging. Otherwise each year's biggest new shmup releases risk becoming as irrelevant outside a niche, as the latest Dynasty Warriors installment. With the right creativity injection, and a return to addictive rather than punitive gameplay, shmups have the potential to become relevant to a larger demographic again.

UnscathedFlyingObject · Thu May 01, 2008 3:51 am

iatneH wrote:Yeah. I bet you wish the Ketsui Xbox360 thread was in the Trading Station.

I'm referring to why a Shmups themed thread is not in the Shmups section. Nice try.

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Thu May 01, 2008 7:12 am

Moved to shmups chat.

umi · Post by **umi** » Thu May 01, 2008 7:49 am

Shooters need more detail, visually and with regards to interactivity (You'd think with HD and all other technical advancements these things would be appearing, but they aren't really). Analog control as someone mentioned would be cool, but there's an art to using the current directional scheme that will still stand on its own nomatter what. I suppose that as long as Cave is the head of what is effectively a monopoly, we pretty much know what sort of shmups we'll be getting for the forseeable future.

(p.s. I love Cave)

Strider77 · Post by **Strider77** » Thu May 01, 2008 7:54 am

gradius 6 with next gen visuals as good as the big budget titles would be good enough for me.

the ships would look so good when it closed in and then a really great since of scale now. things like AC:4A and Lost Planet show off how big things can look now.

they wouldn't be new game play elements but some things always work especially as long as they look as good as current stuff of their time. to me anyway.

worstplayer · Post by **worstplayer** » Thu May 01, 2008 8:35 am

I think gameplay in current shmups is already nearly perfect.

What really could use some improvement is presentation.
If there was shmup that fully utilized power of modern gaming PC or next-gen console it would be best looking game ever. In shmups you have very limited viewing area and relatively few objects so you can make it extremely detailed.

Just look what Under Defeat can do just with 8MB PowerVR.

cody · Post by **cody** » Thu May 01, 2008 4:34 pm

I'd be interested to see shmups that are closer to the "game" end of the puzzle <--> game spectrum.

Only recent effort in that direction was senko no ronde, which imho was underwhelming.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Thu May 01, 2008 4:42 pm

There is plenty of room for more score/shooting gimick ideas...but personally I'd like to see more arena based shmups (two fisted shmuping ala robotron).

MathU wrote:Analog movement.

This would negate arcade controls...so I definately would not like this.