Ikaruga is awesome but sucks compared to Radiant Silvergun

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:30 am

wow those backflips made me lol

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 4:37 am

All it's missing is some breakdancing.

I'm Alec · Post by **I'm Alec** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:37 am

zero.otaku wrote:
More on topic, I love both, but have a leaning towards IKa as it was the game that got me seriously into shmups over having a casual interest.
I used to work in both a mom 'n pop game store and an arcade in addition to talking to lots of people online and I've heard this same sentiment echoed quite a bit. What was it about Ikaruga that attracted your attention? I can't quite seem to get a handle on how or why this particular game - released for the Gamecube of all consoles (I'm presuming this is the release you're referring to; if not, my apologies) - managed to garner so much attention from non-shmuppers. No one that I talk to now seems to have any awareness of things like Gradius V or R-Type Final, both of which carry stronger brand recognition and were released on a console with a much larger user base. Maybe the NGC's sparse library actually allowed lesser-known titles like Ikaruga to stand out.

Anyway, as far as the main topic of this thread goes, I'd have to say I prefer Radiant Silvergun but I think each game succeeds equally well in executing its concepts. For me, it's hard to find many flaws in actual game design in either; rather, I feel people's reaction to them is based on how well they receive the style of gameplay each title offers.

Ikaruga was just the right place/right time/ right game scenario. I think this may be in part because it was one of the first games (along with CVS2) to not get a US (western) release on the propper console (dc) it was intended for after the DC was abandoned by SEGA in the states. This was infact, the only game I have ever pre-ordered (Dreamcast release), and may very well remain that way. There were a lot of things leading up to me being super juiced about this release, and ultimately a rebirthed interest in shooters. One would be scoring a nice Truxton cart for $2 and loving it. Next would be the DonPachi game that game in a Saturn lot I got from Japan on ebay, a total surprise, and an awesome one at that. A lastly, well//. lastly I don't really know what makes Ikaruga so memorable, but I just gotta love it. Folks who just gotta hate it can go with it, I totally understand why. But from me, you'll see nothing but love.

Oh, and thanks to Kiel for hooking me up with this game after I foolishly sold it on neo-geo.com. Kiel is a pimp straight up.

Specineff · Post by **Specineff** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:10 am

Ikaruga is shorter, less punitive chain-wise, doesn't rely on the same tune over and over and gets rid of the concept of power levels, which in RSG, is vital to get through the game. Easier to pick up and enjoy than RSG.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:26 am

Specineff wrote:Ikaruga is shorter, less punitive chain-wise

wut

do you play for survival or something?

Enhasa · Post by **Enhasa** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 9:49 am

I don't really care about the RSG debate (although it's amusing to see the cycle of baiting and bitching), but c'mon. How are we in a thread with all this talk about how overrated RSG is, and someone can mention FF Tactics without a hint of irony?

Also, FFT is maybe Sakimoto's worst soundtrack pre FFTA.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 10:30 pm

How can that be when RSG has FFT leftovers. Soukyugurentai's soundtrack is also not any better than RSG. Just cuz it's in a shooter doesn't make it better.

Talking about music opinions is worthless because mine are better and you won't agree, but the point remains that either the songs are leftovers from the FFT sessions or Sakimoto lazily applied the same fantasy-epic style to any type of game with any theme. That's not good soundtrack composing. At least it actually fit with FFT. At least Gradius V had a more electronic ("futuristic") approach.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:13 pm

http://www.emuxhaven.net/~silver/Hirosh ... ergun.html

(i'm not sure how you think sound composers work)

Hardstepah · Post by **Hardstepah** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:17 pm

the music sounds like an epic space opera soundtrack, if you ask me the music goes quite well with the game (especially penta). shmups dont really need to have an electronic "futuristic" soundtrack for it to be a good one. ikarugas soundtrack is brilliant and is not very "futuristic" sounding at all.

szycag · Post by **szycag** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:31 pm

Rob wrote:Talking about music opinions is worthless because mine are better and you won't agree

#1 Rob fan

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:31 pm

jpj wrote: (i'm not sure how you think sound composers work)

What? Great link with gibberish.

Will this be okay? No, not at all. I can't let my Silvergun die! "Anywhere is fine. Borrow my strength! Just ask!"

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:42 pm

at the end I asked for songs that expressed "Tragedy that can't be overcome by destiny" and "The feeling of surpassing before the destruction".

And Sakimoto was all like

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Mon Feb 18, 2008 11:53 pm

you just don't stop, do you.

iuchi employed him and asked for an orchestral soundtrack with recurring musical theme (melody). he made him re-work it several times, and even close to the deadline was busting sakimoto's balls to do touch-ups. and eventually iuchi got a soundtrack that he loved. the cd sold well, and got a re-print (how often can you say that for OST's?). iuchi doubts sakimoto would want to work on the follow up because of how much he put sakimoto through. so i wouldn't say it was done lazily, etc etc.

can i use "silvergun woulda been better with techno" yet?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:16 am

Not sure what your point is. I still think these are scraps from FFT or lazily similar composing. Anyone could hear it. Constantly bookending your posts with the lol icon is pretty retarded, btw.

can i use "silvergun woulda been better with techno" yet?

I thought everyone in the UK loved electronica.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:25 am

nah UK is more about naff indie and drug-addled 'stars' like amy winehouse and pete doherty at the moment

edit: my point is that the music was a very deliberate design choice, and it's the game director (as opposed to the sound composer) who ultimately decides what music is to be used.

Hardstepah · Post by **Hardstepah** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:14 am

Rob wrote:Not sure what your point is. I still think these are scraps from FFT or lazily similar composing. Anyone could hear it. Constantly bookending your posts with the lol icon is pretty retarded, btw.I thought everyone in the UK loved electronica.

drum and bass!

how does it sound like left overs from FFT? did RS rape your mother or something? EVERYTHING about this game sucks to you. and i wouldnt talk about how your musical opinion is better than anybody elses with that metal church avatar you got goin on there.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:26 am

Hardstepah wrote:and i wouldnt talk about how your musical opinion is better than anybody elses with that metal church avatar you got goin on there.

lol

I don't think the soundtrack sucks. FFT's is one of my favorites. A soundtrack should really be created from the ground up for a specific game, though. I've been listening to the RSG and FFT osts today, do you want me to post up some short side-by-side comparisons? It'll be fun!

Hardstepah · Post by **Hardstepah** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:35 am

sure im willing to hear your arguement. the RS ost was built from the ground up, its just his style. i think the soundtrack is perfect for the game. and if you read or can understand the story plot and cut scenes it helps the musics case.

Zebra Airforce · Post by **Zebra Airforce** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:03 am

I remember reading that Iuchi and Sakimoto were talking games, and they decided they wanted to make a soundtrack like the good ol' days. Then they came out with RSG's soundtrack? Then Ikaruga comes out and is much more faithful to classic shooter music with its cheesy synths.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:23 am

I must be missing something, because I thought Iuchi was a graphic designer.

Hardstepah · Post by **Hardstepah** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:48 am

either way, you dont have to think RS is the best ever or better than ikaruga, but its a god damn good game!

Enhasa · Post by **Enhasa** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:53 am

Rob wrote:How can that be when RSG has FFT leftovers. Soukyugurentai's soundtrack is also not any better than RSG. Just cuz it's in a shooter doesn't make it better.

2/10, needs more bitching, it's a start though.

FFT is all Tactics Ogre leftovers, in fact the whole game is Tactics Ogre leftovers. Also Gradius 5 is all reject Breath of Fire 5 music. you like terrible music, own up to it

Rob wrote:Talking about music opinions is worthless because mine are better and you won't agree, but the point remains that either the songs are leftovers from the FFT sessions or Sakimoto lazily applied the same fantasy-epic style to any type of game with any theme. That's not good soundtrack composing. At least it actually fit with FFT. At least Gradius V had a more electronic ("futuristic") approach.

LAWL you think I'm defending the RSG soundtrack. You are right, the actual answer is "Sakimoto lazily applied the same fantasy-epic style to any type of game with any theme." Especially with FFT.

This is fun but not as fun as it should be. I think it'd be better to try Touhou, Cave, and Treasure fans. You are too reasonable.

Edit: Everything I said in this post is serious though.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 3:58 am

you make terrible posts, own up to it

Enhasa · Post by **Enhasa** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:01 am

That setup was too easy, I know.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:28 am

Enhasa wrote:Also Gradius 5 is all reject Breath of Fire 5 music. you like terrible music, own up to it

I can't remember any of BOF5's soundtrack. I think it must've been far more subdued and atmospheric, which would fit.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 11:26 am

rob: sakimoto did a bad job as a composer, and lazy
iuchi: sakimoto did a great job, and lots of effort was made

where does this game place in the annual top 25?

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:58 pm

jpj wrote:rob: sakimoto did a bad job as a composer, and lazy
iuchi: sakimoto did a great job, and lots of effort was made

where does this game place in the annual top 25?

RSG has a great OST but it's not comparable with Poison or any of the superb works Rob entertains its ears with.

Post by **spadgy** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:31 pm

Any arguement about the comparative OSTs is futile as it's purely taste right?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:55 pm

jpj wrote:rob: sakimoto did a bad job as a composer, and lazy
iuchi: sakimoto did a great job, and lots of effort was made

How does he know how much effort was made, unless he watched him do it. I also wouldn't trust his judgment as to what a good (or appropriate) job is, since their games are usually a mess for one reason or another. It is a fine soundtrack for the Tactics Ogre series. Like making a hyper-serious shooter with a Tactics Ogre EPIC! soundtrack and then toss in goofy anime characters.

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Tue Feb 19, 2008 10:21 pm

rob, after iuchi hired him, if iuchi asked for a techno soundtrack, he'd have to do it. if he'd asked for a reggae soundtrack, he'd have to do it. but he was asked for an orchestral soundtrack. and fair enough, you're saying it sounds similar to FFT (which you say you really like). but this happens with most musicians - i say that from personal experience (every musician has certain phrases, scales, chord changes, etc, that they naturally and unconsciously gravitate to). or it's possible that iuchi hired him for the specific reason that he wanted a soundtrack reminiscent (or very similar in style) to FFT. and i do believe iuchi when he talks of how much he put sakimoto through. sakimoto went far above and beyond what was expected from him; and you can see that for yourself how often iuchi made him re-write stuff. so to answer your question, he does indeed know how much effort was made.

goofy anime characters...? sounds like a lot of shmups. HAN's artwork book of those characters sells for quite a large amount too

surely another plus for the (saturn version) game is fully animated intros and ending sequence?