What Makes A Great Shmup, well...Great?

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:46 pm

Is it fun?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:06 am

j^aws wrote:inertia; which would need extra inputs...

No; no since no.

I'm not sure why a game should be designed around floaty controls. It's kind of like: pitiful starting weapons -> checkpoints.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:17 am

Rob wrote:
j^aws wrote:inertia; which would need extra inputs...
No; no since no.

I'm not sure why a game should be designed around floaty controls. It's kind of like: pitiful starting weapons -> checkpoints.

Because it takes skill. Especially if you want to 'medal' chain with humanoids...

And the controls aren't "floaty"... Your ship has variable speed with inertia... which you have full control over... if you just want to auto-scroll, then don't let go of the 'thrust' button... but that won't get you very far...

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:48 am

Maybe it works for the game you're talking about.

In most cases, inertia would limit the design of a shooting game. For instance you'd have to use simplistic patterns with slow bullets, if you wanted to be fair. Or you could make a messy euroshmup but then you'd have horrible design.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:02 am

JoshF wrote:Maybe it works for the game you're talking about.

In most cases, inertia would limit the design of a shooting game. For instance you'd have to use simplistic patterns with slow bullets, if you wanted to be fair. Or you could make a messy euroshmup but then you'd have horrible design.

Yep, I explained why it works with certain games earlier in the thread:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... 638#307638

... though some of the enemies in Stargate use very fast bullets; and they can have very smart and aggressive AI too... the bullet patterns can be simplistic and fast; yet the enemy 'patterns' can be complex... the emphasis is in 'shooting' with a very different style to dodging... And to be fair to the player, you have an 'invisio' button, which makes your ship disappear for defense against said projectiles and enemies (in limited supply; kinda like 'reflect' in Takumi games); and you can use your entire ship as a 'melee' weapon in this state too...

bVork · Post by **bVork** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:08 am

What makes a shooter great is pace. The player has to feel that they're both a stupendous badass and one misstep away from certain destruction - at the same time.

Beyond this, a scoring system that will keep the player coming back to do better will give the game longevity.[/list]

Blue Peace · Post by **Blue Peace** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:52 pm

doodude wrote:uh, cave, whatsa cave

cave is a natural underground void large enough for a human to enter and apperantly Cave is also a great company that makes awsome shmup games, I wonder why Cave is called Cave,maybe because they're making those games from a cave?

Gorecki · Post by **Gorecki** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:23 pm

Stargate isn't a shmup.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:42 pm

Gorecki wrote:Stargate isn't a shmup.

Don't let go of the thrust button (it'll auto-scroll); don't use the reverse button (it'll lack inertia)... There you go; it's so far ahead of its time, that it can fulfill some arbitrary definition, from some random forumites, nearly 30 years from its release...

Post by **Shatterhand** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:49 pm

Exerion is a shmup made around Inertia, and it works pretty well.

But other than Exerion, it's always a bad idea. And Stargate isn't a shmup indeed.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 1:52 pm

Yep, it's better than any shmup!

Post by **Shatterhand** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:28 pm

your love for Stargate is sillier than my love for Compile.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:34 pm

Forgot I posted this before; this is just a FYI post regarding the control panel setup of Stargate in the Arcades.

Directional inputs: Up/ down and reverse (left/ right) are on the left side.

Action inputs: Your speed is controlled by thrust on the right side, along with 3 weapon buttons... The lesser used hyperspace button takes a central position...

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:41 pm

Left side looks painful. And also too many buttons.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:44 pm

It's initially intimidating; but actually becomes intuitive with practice...

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:45 pm

bullets that you actually have to avoide

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:52 pm

^Yeah, I don't like that.

If I wanted to press 6 buttons I'd play a fighting game.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:04 pm

On the right side: You only really use 3 buttons; fire, invisio and thrust... the other 2 are really for 'special', rarer occasions...

On the left side: You don't need to think of them as buttons; they just change the 'orientation' of your ship and this really isn't that difficult...

And technically it does have a 'melee' weapon; so fighting aliens isn't that far off!

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:43 pm

j^aws wrote:It's initially intimidating; but actually becomes intuitive with practice...

I thought "intuitive" commonly meant "initially comprehensible without prior knowledge". Which I'm afraid is quite the opposite to the case here.

shoe-sama · Post by **shoe-sama** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:46 pm

STARGATES MECHANICS DO NOT MAKE A GOOD SHMUP END OF STORY

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:58 pm

moozooh wrote:
j^aws wrote:It's initially intimidating; but actually becomes intuitive with practice...
I thought "intuitive" commonly meant "initially comprehensible without prior knowledge". Which I'm afraid is quite the opposite to the case here.

E.g. Driving a manual transmission car becomes "intuitive" after "practice"...

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:03 am

I created the best control scheme of all-time:

With practice you'll wonder why you ever bothered with "normal" controls.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:07 am

Back to trolling I see?

Carry on... don't know why I'm trying to be helpful trying to relay any tips in a civil discussion.

*shakes head*

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:20 am

j^aws wrote:It's initially intimidating; but actually becomes intuitive with practice...

The same is likely true of Steel Battalion-- wouldn't know-- but that's still no excuse.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:23 am

professor ganson wrote:
j^aws wrote:It's initially intimidating; but actually becomes intuitive with practice...
The same is likely true of Steel Battalion-- wouldn't know-- but that's still no excuse.

Excuse for what?

moozooh · Post by **moozooh** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:27 am

For that control scheme being unintuitive and also very bad?

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:29 am

moozooh wrote:For that control scheme being unintuitive and also very bad?

I've explained that it becomes intuitive with practice...

And bad is a matter of opinion and skill level...

FIL · Post by **FIL** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:31 am

If you have to practice, its not intuitive, it just means you learned how to use it.

j^aws · Post by **j^aws** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:33 am

FIL wrote:If you have to practice, its not intuitive, it just means you learned how to use it.

That's exactly what I said:

"It's initially intimidating; but actually becomes intuitive with practice..."

FIL · Post by **FIL** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:34 am

Controls do not 'become' intuitive, they either are or they are not.