First manic?

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:21 am

It came to my attention recently, that the French shmup documentary that was floating around got it into my head that Battle Garegga was the first manic. When asked what the first manic was, some guy said "Ah, was it Batsugun? No... Let's see... Oh, I remember, it was Battle Garegga!" Or something along those lines. At the time I thought it was Batsugun, and when he said "No... Let's see..." I was most confused.

Was Batsugun just not considered a manic or what? What about Donpachi? How about Recca? They're all pre-Garegga.

Anyways, which is it? Or is it like borderliners and up for debate?

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:27 am

Well, considering 'manic' is a term coined in the west, it's pretty hard to define even now what is considered manic. Clearly any danmaku game would fall into that category, but what about the rest? Some people will say that Psikyo games are manic despite the fact there's never more than 8 bullets on screen at once.

With that, there's never going to be a general consensus.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:39 am

GaijinPunch wrote:8 bullets on screen at once.

no, 9

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:51 am

Ah, I figured it would be something like that. Danmaku is basically "curtain fire," right? What determines a danmaku shooter, or is it about as ambiguous as our term "manic?" Also, was Battle Garegga the first danmaku? I can accept that there's no clear definition of what a manic shooter is and that means there is no clear first in the states, but if someone can explain why that guy almost answered with Batsugun but changed his answer to Battle Garegga, that'd most certainly satiate my curiosity ^_^

If no one knows, I guess I'll have to learn to live with never knowing

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:56 am

Also, Touhou games are not manic shooters.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:29 am

I sort of agree with you on that actually. However, are they danmaku? o_O Is there a difference?

I was also going to bring up the Psikyo manic issue too. I remember seeing Gunbird 2 referred to as manic, and was quite puzzled at this. Gunbird 2 is certainly hectic, and difficult, but... not "manic" such as I understood it.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 9:39 am

My own interpretation: manic shooter = more to do with speed/intensity. Bullet hell/danmaku/etc. = pure bullet count. There is some overlap, but after a certain point in bullet hell games the speed has to be lowered so much to where it's more sedate than anything. I'd consider a game like Recca a proto-manic shooter (almost average shooter of the day, sped up) and games like the RFs, mid-late Psikyo, Dangun Feveron, etc. to be manic.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:18 am

Rob wrote:but after a certain point in bullet hell games the speed has to be lowered so much to where it's more sedate than anything.

The Zun games certainly do suffer from this ^_^ But the reverse is also true. Sometimes bullet speed gets shot up so high that it becomes memorization, and once you know how to "handle" a bullet spray, it too feels sedate.

Alrighty, well, I can accept that definition. I'll just run with that one =P And yeah, there's definitely overlap with those definitions of manic/danmaku.

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:32 am

I always refer to games where you 'twitch' about while avoiding around about upwards of 30 bullets a 'manic'. e.g Gunbird 2, Recca etc. I consider games with crap-tonnes of bullets but pretty active dodging a 'bullet-hell' or 'danmaku' if i'm feeling wapanese. e.g all cave games post 1998. And 'curtain fire' games are very slow moving with minute hitboxes, with upwards of 500-1000 bullets on screen at any point. e.g ZUN and X-X games.

In short it's highly subjective, and the documentary is having a little joke about it. When the guy considers it, the dialogue on screen "Batsugun, puet etre!?" is supposed to emulate a fanboy disscusion between the director of the film and the interviewee. Lol, post modernism etc, but it outlines how subjective it all is.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:05 am

Haha, that explains it better than anything I dreamt up with my own imagination ^_^ A joke, of course.

Radegou · Post by **Radegou** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:15 pm

t came to my attention recently, that the French shmup documentary that was floating around got it into my head that Battle Garegga was the first manic. When asked what the first manic was, some guy said "Ah, was it Batsugun? No... Let's see... Oh, I remember, it was Battle Garegga!"

The japanese guy never talked about batsugun. It's just the french team who put batsugun on the screen. For him, the 1st danmaku is BG.

I think despite the bullet number the point important is the scoring system.
And in that way i think BG is one of the first whith so complex scoring mechanics.

Zeether · Post by **Zeether** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:29 pm

There needs to be an English shmup documentary...

Fighter17 · Post by **Fighter17** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:01 pm

Manic = Fast Bullets with about 100 max on screen.

Bullet-Hell: Slow moving bullets with tons on screen at once.

sikraiken · Post by **sikraiken** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:13 pm

I've always known manic to be things like DoDonPachi. Who's making up these definitions anyway?

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:29 pm

Fans who think they know things.

eight · Post by **eight** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:31 pm

So, Psikyo games never have more than 9 bullets on-screen? I never knew!

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:23 pm

Ignore the Cave fans.

J-Manic · Post by **J-Manic** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:08 pm

Isn't RECCA [NES] known to be the first manic shmup ever?

MX7 · Post by **MX7** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:16 pm

J-Manic wrote:Isn't RECCA [NES] known to be the first manic shmup ever?

I'd say so, but I'd prob get shot down, p-pow.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:45 pm

JoshF wrote:Fans who think they know things.

like icycalm

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sun Sep 09, 2007 11:55 pm

Arvandor wrote: Also, was Battle Garegga the first danmaku?

No. It is not a danmaku at all.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:04 am

Games where the play style is fast paced and/or involves complexity in any part of the game engine would be considered manic, eg nearly all of Cave's catalog, mid-late era Seibu shooters, Yagawa-directed Raizing games, etc. This doesn't imply curtain fire and small hitboxes, as Garegga, Bakraid, Soukyu, and the RF series do not have a high bullet count nor do they have microscopic hitboxes.

There are a lot of very slow-paced danmaku games (SNS, Psyvariar, and Touhou series/most doujin shooters) which aren't structured or paced much differently than something like R-Type, in which planning and memory takes much more precedence than game engine handling/reflexes unless you play in the second loop difficulty (Lunatic/Extra, etc) if available and aren't really considered manic as a result.

JoshF · Post by **JoshF** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:21 am

Twiddle wrote:
JoshF wrote:Fans who think they know things.
like icycalm

When has he tried to coin a genre?

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:23 am

I think he's got everyone in this thread beat for doing anything else related to thinking he knows things.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:04 am

Twiddle wrote:I think he's got everyone in this thread beat for doing anything else related to thinking he knows things.

I think I need to practice my English. I only somewhat understand that sentence.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:04 am

My run-ons are brilliant.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:22 am

I enjoy icycalm's ramblings.

Arvandor · Post by **Arvandor** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 1:22 am

I think I've started another "what constitutes a borderliner" discussion =/ In other words it's largely subjective, but not entirely. If you know what I mean.

Veracity · Post by **Veracity** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:11 am

Dodging through rather than around seems to me the most consistently relevant distinguishing feature of danmaku, besides the obvious whole bunch o'bullets thing. I think of that as synonymous with bullet hell, though I'm sure others use them differently. The odd-ball is 'manic', in my mind - going simply by what the word means, at least, as opposed to acquired connotations in the immediate context, it's orthogonal to danmaku. I stay away from and am sceptical of distinctions revolving around dependence on memorization or lack thereof.

Twiddle · Post by **Twiddle** » Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:16 am

winner