DDP3 Black Label... Clarification

MKL · Post by **MKL** » Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:47 pm

The problem with this suicide battery is that it's rechargeable so when the board is stored away it progressively loses its charge until you power it up again and leave it on for enough time to recharge. In the case of Black Label, however, if the charge gets too low the board commits suicide. Therefore if you replace the battery on a still functioning board with the same type, i.e. rechargeable, it could still suicide after a relatively short period of storage: not a safe situation at all. My suggestion is pretty simple: replace the battery with a non-rechargeable type and disable the charging circuit by removing/cutting the diode connecting the + of the battery to the main 5v rail. In this way you'll have a situation similar to CPS2 where the batteries will keep their charge constant for years even if the boards are not powered up.

rtw wrote:I managed to perform the dry run on my normal Dai-Ou-Jou today with succes

First I entered the setup menu and changed all parameters
so that I could verify that the NVRAM was not cleared.

Then I laid out my tools:

. Soldering iron
. Solder
. Desoldering pump
. Desoldering wick
. Wire cutters
. A freshly charged VARTA battery

I powered up the PCB and laid it gently on a chair. Then I
wiggled the JAMMA connector to verify a good connection.

Then I started the procedure:

. Snip of the existing battery
. Using the soldering iron and tweezers I removed the remaining battery legs.
. Cleaned away as much solder as I could using the solder wick.
. At this point I turned the PCB to vertical position.
. Then I started heating the battery pad from the solder side while using the desoldering pump on the other side.
. After a few tries I managed to remove all the solder and open the holes.
. Then I put the new battery in making sure that the polarity was correct.
. After that all I had to do was solder the new battery in place.

Note:
Make sure that the tip of your soldering iron is not connected to earth!

Next up is the Black Label

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:29 am

MKL wrote:The problem with this suicide battery is that it's rechargeable so when the board is stored away it progressively loses its charge until you power it up again and leave it on for enough time to recharge. In the case of Black Label, however, if the charge gets too low the board commits suicide. Therefore if you replace the battery on a still functioning board with the same type, i.e. rechargeable, it could still suicide after a relatively short period of storage: not a safe situation at all. My suggestion is pretty simple: replace the battery with a non-rechargeable type and disable the charging circuit by removing/cutting the diode connecting the + of the battery to the main 5v rail. In this way you'll have a situation similar to CPS2 where the batteries will keep their charge constant for years even if the boards are not powered up.

I was aware of this situation, therefore I made a small charging circuit
and charged the battery before swapping it on my PCB. However it turned
out that the battery was around 80% charged when I got it.

Removing the charging circuitry would be a possible solution but things will
still need to be done live. Do you have pictures/details of your modification ?

I think we should also attempt to determine the trickle current used on
this PCB so we can get a rough estimate of how long it will last if you swap
it with a non-rechargeable one.

rtw

MKL · Post by **MKL** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:45 pm

rtw wrote:
MKL wrote:The problem with this suicide battery is that it's rechargeable so when the board is stored away it progressively loses its charge until you power it up again and leave it on for enough time to recharge. In the case of Black Label, however, if the charge gets too low the board commits suicide. Therefore if you replace the battery on a still functioning board with the same type, i.e. rechargeable, it could still suicide after a relatively short period of storage: not a safe situation at all. My suggestion is pretty simple: replace the battery with a non-rechargeable type and disable the charging circuit by removing/cutting the diode connecting the + of the battery to the main 5v rail. In this way you'll have a situation similar to CPS2 where the batteries will keep their charge constant for years even if the boards are not powered up.
I was aware of this situation, therefore I made a small charging circuit
and charged the battery before swapping it on my PCB. However it turned
out that the battery was around 80% charged when I got it.

Removing the charging circuitry would be a possible solution but things will
still need to be done live. Do you have pictures/details of your modification ?

I think we should also attempt to determine the trickle current used on
this PCB so we can get a rough estimate of how long it will last if you swap
it with a non-rechargeable one.

rtw

I don't see why you took all those precautions if it was a normal DOJ. On that board you might as well pull the battery out with the board off, you would just lose scores and settings but it wouldn't die would it?.

And on a Black Label you could swap the battery with the board unpowered if you use a backup battery. I haven't done this myself though.

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 6:26 pm

MKL wrote:I don't see why you took all those precautions if it was a normal DOJ. On that board you might as well pull the battery out with the board off, you would just lose scores and settings but it wouldn't die would it?.

And on a Black Label you could swap the battery with the board unpowered if you use a backup battery. I haven't done this myself though.

As outlined earlier, the reason why I did the Dai-Ou-Jou in this manner
was as a proof of concept that I could change the battery and still retain
the settings (NVRAM) of the PCB. If it worked on the Dai-Ou-Jou it would
work on the BL as well.

On the Black Label it's there are not a lot of places to mount the
backup battery. One point is very close to the leg you will be
heating up to remove the battery.

What kind of battery would you use as backup ? If you use a normal
lithium-ion (CPS2) and your NiMh battery is severly depleted the LI battery
will start charging the NiMh causing a voltage drop.

The live swap is the easist and safest IMHO. Just make sure the tip
of your soldering iron is not connected to ground.

rtw

Coryoon · Post by **Coryoon** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 12:37 pm

Ummm, I'm not being funny or anything and this is about Ketsui but ...

I fired up my Ketsui at the weekend after not playing it for 2/3 months and it got past the splash screens and was ready to show the demo mode, when it froze on a white screen and I had an error message - like a RAM test list in yellow with errors.

After a number of resets I managed to get the game working by simply starting the game before the attract (duh) and after a quick (rubbish) run the problem didn't re-occur, when i just left it to cycle through the attracts.

I'm sure that the time before when I left it I had set it to free play and I had to reset it this time round.

I'm guessing the battery is dead and that the board is whining about it - fortunately it probably isn't terminal ?? After getting a bit of juice it must be ok to run and it may hold a latent charge (even if it's very minimal).

I have left it for a few days and will try it this evening, I'm wondering if there might be more problems for me in the future unless i perhaps replace the battery?

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:15 pm

Coryoon wrote:Ummm, I'm not being funny or anything and this is about Ketsui but ...

Relax, you have the buggy first release. Read all about it here.

http://shmups.system11.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9528

You can download the newest version from WOA.

Ketsui does not use the battery for anything except settings

rtw

Coryoon · Post by **Coryoon** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:48 pm

It appears that I am huge bell end.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:03 pm

Or don't set your board to freeplay and you will be fine.

pixelcorps · Post by **pixelcorps** » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:14 pm

so, not trying to be incendiary or anything, but has anybody collaborated on getting a letter in japanese to send to cave to get an official word on this?

it kinda seems like the most sensible thing to do, and might prevent people selling / buying dead boards that may never be revived....

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:00 pm

Resurrection...

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=16402

rtw

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:10 am

Above is a the battery circuit used on CAVE PGM PCB's.

For DaiOuJou & DaiOuJou Black Label the resistor value is R6 but for Ketsui & Espgaluda it is R11.

Thanks to Kold666 & MKL we finally know the purpose of the SW1 switch
on the PGM PCB. It's purpose is to reset the NVRAM by forcing the VCC
pin on the NVRAM to ground!

This means that if you toggle the switch on a DaiOiJou Black Label you
will erase the magic id stored there and the board will show "ROM ERROR".
This might be the reason for the elaborate blue metal case and seal.

Kold666 & MKL have also devised a method of replacing the rechargable
3V6 NiMh battery with a normal non chargeable 3V6 Li-Ion battery by
disabling the charging circuitry.

There are two options:
. Remove diode D2, this will cause the battery to only power the NVRAM.
. Remove SMD resistor R6, this will allow the +5V to power the NVRAM when the PCB is powered, thereby increasing the length of the battery life. This mod is complicated because of the tiny SMD.

Both these battery changes have to be done while the PCB is powered!

rtw

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:42 am

rtw wrote:I managed to perform the dry run on my normal Dai-Ou-Jou today with succes

First I entered the setup menu and changed all parameters
so that I could verify that the NVRAM was not cleared.

Then I laid out my tools:

. Soldering iron
. Solder
. Desoldering pump
. Desoldering wick
. Wire cutters
. A freshly charged VARTA battery

I powered up the PCB and laid it gently on a chair. Then I
wiggled the JAMMA connector to verify a good connection.

Then I started the procedure:

. Snip of the existing battery
. Using the soldering iron and tweezers I removed the remaining battery legs.
. Cleaned away as much solder as I could using the solder wick.
. At this point I turned the PCB to vertical position.
. Then I started heating the battery pad from the solder side while using the desoldering pump on the other side.
. After a few tries I managed to remove all the solder and open the holes.
. Then I put the new battery in making sure that the polarity was correct.
. After that all I had to do was solder the new battery in place.

Note:
Make sure that the tip of your soldering iron is not connected to earth!

Next up is the Black Label

you make it sound so simple rtw, i think i may give this a shot myself.

but what is meant by "soldering iron not connected to earth"?

sorry, you know my electrical skills....

also, the battery i showed you from cpc, if it has two pins on one side, and one pin on the other, is it possible to bend one (of the two) pins into the correct position, and bend the other out of the way (and possibly put electrical tape around it so it doesn't touch any other components)? i'd like to use cpc if possible as i already have an account with them

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:38 am

"Earth" is the European and Japanese term for "Ground".

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:31 am

jpj wrote:you make it sound so simple rtw, i think i may give this a shot myself.

but what is meant by "soldering iron not connected to earth"?

sorry, you know my electrical skills....

also, the battery i showed you from cpc, if it has two pins on one side, and one pin on the other, is it possible to bend one (of the two) pins into the correct position, and bend the other out of the way (and possibly put electrical tape around it so it doesn't touch any other components)? i'd like to use cpc if possible as i already have an account with them

If the tip of your soldering iron is connected to earth/ground you stand
the chance of a discharge. Therefore it's best to snip away the battery
before you remove the pins from the PCB.

I would make an effort to get a battery with 2 pins. You are going to be
working on a live circuit and the last thing you want, is to worry about
a battery alignment issue.

SuperPang got hold of a few a little while ago, why don't you ask him where he got them ?

rtw

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:24 pm

thanks guys, and i have enquired with mr. pang

and i'll buy better tools in the meanwhile

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:06 pm

jpj wrote:i have enquired with mr. pang

failing that, how do you feel about these ones rtw:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/sear ... 379#header

product 422-387 (the one with 2 pins)

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:15 pm

jpj wrote:failing that, how do you feel about these ones rtw:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/sear ... 379#header

product 422-387 (the one with 2 pins)

422-387 has only got 15mAh...

rtw

edit: Added jpj's own observation!

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:03 am

hold the phone, i just clicked on the link for 422-387:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/422387.html#header

and it says the capacity for that one is only 15mAh...

edit: found this one as well, but can't tell if it's two pin or not (looks very similar to the cpc one to be honest..)
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/sear ... 843#header

double edit: fuck. just checked through the pdf file and it's almost certainly 1 pin on one side, and 2 on the other..

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:14 am

jpj wrote:edit: found this one as well, but can't tell if it's two pin or not (looks very similar to the cpc one to be honest..)
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/sear ... 843#header

It's a 3 pin instead of a 2

rtw

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:18 am

ah you beat me to it.

i guess a 15mAh is no good

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:23 am

This is the correct one...

http://www.mouser.com/search/refine.asp ... 5608303012

Maybe some American individual can buy a few and send them to
you or ask mouser if they know of a source in Europe ?

rtw

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:27 am

i'm a bit confused again now, because that one from mouser is 1.2V. is that not too weak?

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:35 am

jpj wrote:i'm a bit confused again now, because that one from mouser is 1.2V. is that not too weak?

It consists of 3 * 1.2V cells making it 3.6V in total. That's why the battery is
called: 3V80H. It's actually 3 cell batteries each with 1.2V in a plastic
wrapper.

rtw

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:37 am

ah thank you very much for the clarification

LARGE KRO · Post by **LARGE KRO** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:02 am

Hi JPJ,

I ordered a few Varta for me when I needed to change them on my DOJ and my PGM slot, same model as original, I still have one left brand new if you want.

LARGE KRO · Post by **LARGE KRO** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:03 pm

I managed to find to find the link of the supplier based in Europe, they only accepted bank transfer and 5 pieces as minimum order.

http://www.elektronik.ropla.eu/en/magazyn/magazyn/

check for the rechargable Ni-MH cell VARTA 3V80H VMB0022
Hope this helps

rtw · Post by **rtw** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:53 pm

Hey "LARGE KRO" did you finally get your PCB fixed with CAVE ? If so how much did it cost ?

rtw

LARGE KRO · Post by **LARGE KRO** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:18 pm

Hi rtw

I had it fixed by Cave for the resurrection, it costed me something like 22000 yen, MAK comission inclued.
Such a pitty that the board died a second time and nothing to do with the battery here... One day I powered up the game and the board loosed the its video syncro. I sent it back a second time and they have not been able to fix it. Anyhow, truth or not it got me so bothered that I did not give a damn anymore about the board

Classic DOJ is far enough challenge for me, just feel sorry that I lost a great game and a lot of money in the story

jpj · Post by **jpj** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:25 pm

salut KRO,

sorry to hear about your board

thanks for the useful information though

jpj wrote:i have enquired with mr. pang

...

cheers again rtw. you're a diamond geezer

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:20 pm

That's the worst PCB story I've ever heard.