Forums opinion on best home console for shooters?

[louisg]

unless you think games like Chaos Field, Karous, Radirgy, Trizeal and Trigger Heart Exelica are the pinnacle of shmupliness.

So, uh, I guess that means you think Shienryu Explosion, XII Stag and Silpheed: Lost Planet are the pinnacle instead? Maybe for the TG16 we could list Dead Moon and Rock On. For the PSX we could recommend Shooter Space Shot, and then for the Genesis we'd tell people to check out Curse.

Wake up, poor player!

[Kron]

Um....

1. PS2
2. Saturn
3. PC Engine

I'd have to think about it a bit, but I think I'd tend to put the DC behind the MD/Genesis and SFC/SNES. The DC shmup library tends to get a bit overrated...unless you think games like Chaos Field, Karous, Radirgy, Trizeal and Trigger Heart Exelica are the pinnacle of shmupliness.

- Grant

If any consoles Shmup library is overrated its the PS2's.

[EOJ]

If any consoles Shmup library is overrated its the PS2's.

Lol!

[Grant Windsor]

So, uh, I guess that means you think Shienryu Explosion, XII Stag and Silpheed: Lost Planet are the pinnacle instead? Maybe for the TG16 we could list Dead Moon and Rock On. For the PSX we could recommend Shooter Space Shot, and then for the Genesis we'd tell people to check out Curse.

Um...well, of course, if I had said that I racked and stacked my systems by the total number of utterly shit shmups they had on them, you would be correct. However, I didn't.

I have no system bias...I like them all. You apparently like the DC by the tone of your reply...fine, good for you. As far as the DC goes, I own 135 games for it...and that includes all 18 2D shmups. I love my DC, but I hardly think it is a major shmup contender, given the relatively few shmups on the system. Of those 18, the only ones I consider to be "system classics" are Border Down, GigaWing 2, Ikaruga, Psyvariar 2, Shikigami No Shiro II and Under Defeat...and, maybe, Gunbird 2. The remaining 11 fall in the OK range or worse, in my opinion. And that's the important point...it's my opinion. You don't have to accept it or even like it, but you can't condemn my opinion unless it's utterly uneducated (if I didn't own or hadn't played the games...and just ranted like some simpleton system-centric fanboy).

As far the Saturn, PS2 and PC Engine go, I own all of the 2D shmups for all three systems. I've played them all and can intelligently rate these systems as a collective. The SNES and Genesis...no, I don't have them all...but I'm lacking only Battlemania 2, Slap Fight and Space Invaders 90 on MD and Choplifter 3 and SD Kidou Senshi Gundam 2 on SFC. Having the majority of shooters on both systems, I think I can make a pretty fair assessment of them in relation to the DC.

With DC, you get several modern games...some good, some not so good. However, on the other systems, you not only received modern games (in the case of systems other than the PS2, for the time at least) but you also received many classic games...and, of course, some terrible games along the way (for every Radiant Silvergun, there is Planet Joker out there somewhere). Unless a system's entire library of shooters is crap, there is no way a system with 18 shmups can logically compete from the standpoint of sheer volume alone. Is the DC a worthwhile system for shmups? Of course it is. But, arguably, so are systems like the Neo CD...and SuperGrafx...and Mega CD (three other systems I own all of the shmups for). Each has a tiny library of shooters, but they have exclusives you can't get anywhere else.

I dislike these "which system is better" threads because there are always people who can't accept the opinions of others. It takes all kinds...I once knew a guy who thought the Jaguar was a great shmup machine based on Raiden, Trevor McFur and Defender 2000. Hey, if that's what flipped his boat...I'm not him, so I didn't enjoy or experience my games in the same way he did. However, I never crushed his belief because, hell, he was playing shooting games and that is all that counted. Who was I to say he was misguided? I kind of liked Defender 2000 anyway....

- Grant

[jp]

Um....

1. PS2
2. Saturn
3. PC Engine

I'd have to think about it a bit, but I think I'd tend to put the DC behind the MD/Genesis and SFC/SNES. The DC shmup library tends to get a bit overrated...unless you think games like Chaos Field, Karous, Radirgy, Trizeal and Trigger Heart Exelica are the pinnacle of shmupliness.

- Grant

If any consoles Shmup library is overrated its the PS2's.

Not if you're a Cave whore.

But if you don't like Cave... then yes, its rather boring.

[jp]

Saturn >>>> All.

your top 10 shmup list was hilarious

I have a top 10 shmup list?

I was unaware of such a thing. Though I don't really give much thought to such things these days, so there could be an old one floating about somewhere.

Edit:
I guess you're referring to this:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... op++shmups

Which, at least the updated form, I guess I would stand by. Mind you, my top 5 personal favorite shmups is different than my top 5 "best made" shmups. Blast Wind is, admittedly, just something I like and very few other people seem to "get". Is it the best made shmup ever? Na. Is it more fun to me than most everything else? Hells yes.

Top 10 Best Made I would say:
01. Radiant Silvergun - Epic, great boss fights, pretty graphics, great music, solid controls, tons of skill/practice required to get ANYWHERE, leveling up weapons is awesome, and its all around a very well designed game. A cut above everything else in the genre.

02. Batsugun Special - Awesome scoring techniques (secrets), insane fire power, requires lightning fast reflexes, classic Toaplan soudtrack, and getting an extra "hit" everytime you "level" is genius.

03. Battle Garegga - You're not just fighting the enemy, you're fighting RANK! You're fighting the code running the game. And thats very cool and different. And Garegga is easily one of Raizing's best designed shmups. Great bosses, great level designs, great music, etc.

04. Border Down - Most insane scoring system ever bar none. What it lacks in the the artistic direction it more than makes up for in gameplay and music.

05. Hyper Duel (Saturn version)- In my opinion Hyper Duel is a better game than any Thunder Force. The music is better, the levels are better, boss fights are better... everything is just a cut above the Thunder Force games. And final fight is just... awesome.

06. Mars Matrix - Insane scoring system, awesome bullet patterns, leveling up weapons, and great levels. And the DC version has a ton of unlockables. Yay!

07. Nexzr - Just an insanely well made shmup from the 16-bit (or whatever bit its supposed to be) era. Its just... GOOD.

08. Soukyuugurentai - Scoring system is solid, as is the rank system. The levels are well designed, boss fights are good, Sakimoto's soundtrack rocks, and its just a damn good game.

09. Thunder Force AC - In my opinion the best Thunder Force there is. Like Nexzr, its just "damn good". Great levels, great boss fights, great music, the game has everything.

10. Rayforce/Layer Section/Galactic Attack - Solid scoring system, good enemy patterns, awesome level concepts, and good music. Its pretty too.

Now, my personal top 10 would be (off the top of my head):
01. Radiant Silvergun
02. Blast Wind
03. Batsugun
04. Border Down
05. Hyper Duel
06. Game Tengoku
07. Nexzr
08. Thunder Force AC
09. Metal Black
10. Parodius Gokujyo

I know a lot of people would throw a hissy over Blast Wind, but fuck them, its a great game to just sit back and play through when you just want to relax. If I just want to blast through a shmup real quick between classes and work, Blast Wind is almost always going to be what I pick up, because I can pick it up, 1CC it, enjoy the hell out of it, and go about my way.

In so far as Cave, the only two Cave games I've EVER liked were Pro Gear and Dangun Feveron, and both of those I only liked enough to play for a day or two. Everything else I've played by them (DP, DDP, DDP DOJ, the ESP games, Guwange, uh... I think thats it) only lasted one or two plays and I never touched 'em again (nor have I ever felt inclined to do so).

[Super Laydock]

If any consoles Shmup library is overrated its the PS2's.

Not if you're a Cave whore.

But if you don't like Cave... then yes, its rather boring.

Most true.

Aside from DDPDOJ there´s nothing on PS2 that can touch the better DC shmups. Giga Wing/Border Down -> any Ps2 shmup (aside of DDP DOJ perhaps...)

[-Bridget-]

If any consoles Shmup library is overrated its the PS2's.

Not if you're a Cave whore.

But if you don't like Cave... then yes, its rather boring.

Most true.

Aside from DDPDOJ there´s nothing on PS2 that can touch the better DC shmups. Giga Wing/Border Down -> any Ps2 shmup (aside of DDP DOJ perhaps...)

Agreed with the Giga Wing bit.

Though I dont have the DC version; I have it on GameTap, and there's an arcade unit near here as well.


But for me, Giga Wing still beats out anything else I've played, even Mushihime and Cave's other stuff.

[CMoon]

Surprised there isn't more mention of the genesis/megadrive--probably because it isn't the BEST shmup console, but it is the CHEAPEST!

Unlike the SNES, you can get a fully working genesis for about $10, and most of the games from $3 - $15. The 3rd version of it (the tiny one) is the best since it plays import carts without difficulty (I think there are one or two exceptions). In general, this is the system every shmupper should have just because you can have the system and all the games you'd want for it for around $50 or so. For my $, the toaplan games, the thunderforces and a few othres here make it totally worth it. But that doesn't mean the system is gold.

I agree on the modded ps2. You have access to the best ports of pachi's, gradius Gaiden, toaplan shooting battle, raiden project, Zanac Neo (Rob's favorite), etc. Plus all the PS2 ports (*cough*DOJ*cough*) that include lots of cave and psikyo goodness, Gradius 5, and more. If you actually start counting games (especially on all the compilations like Taito Legends 2) you end up with a really huge count of good games (though they're not all the port ever.)

The Saturn too is excellent, and most of the ports are great (with the exception of Gekkirindan and Donpachi (though both are perfectly playable). Highlights obviously include Garrega, Batsugun and Radient Silvergun, though the back catalog goes pretty deep and is well worth digging into.

Isn't all this in the FAQ?

[GaijinPunch]

Aside from DDPDOJ there´s nothing on PS2 that can touch the better DC shmups. Giga Wing/Border Down -> any Ps2 shmup (aside of DDP DOJ perhaps...)

The ironic thing is how shitty the CPS2 games (not limited to shooting -- doesn't one of the Street Fighter games have warped hit detection?) look on the DC, yet people praise them as the DCs saving grace. Mars Matrix takes poor resolution to a whole new level, by not only interlacing an otherwise beautiful screen, but fucking up the aspect ratio as well (which I understand is tweakable, but still---ass).

Both of these games run flawless in MAME... so, yeah, DC -2 for me, even though I like my DC. Just for very different reasons.

[ubersaurus]

Aside from DDPDOJ there´s nothing on PS2 that can touch the better DC shmups. Giga Wing/Border Down -> any Ps2 shmup (aside of DDP DOJ perhaps...)

The ironic thing is how shitty the CPS2 games (not limited to shooting -- doesn't one of the Street Fighter games have warped hit detection?) look on the DC, yet people praise them as the DCs saving grace. Mars Matrix takes poor resolution to a whole new level, by not only interlacing an otherwise beautiful screen, but fucking up the aspect ratio as well (which I understand is tweakable, but still---ass).

Both of these games run flawless in MAME... so, yeah, DC -2 for me, even though I like my DC. Just for very different reasons.

Street Fighter Alpha 3, yeah. GOD AWFUL port. Not only were the sprites squished down, and the hit detection fucked up, but the timing and even the combos themselves are screwy.

Glad I'm not the only one who thought Mars Matrix looked like ass on Dreamcast

[GaijinPunch]

Glad I'm not the only one who thought Mars Matrix looked like ass on Dreamcast

"It's not just you".

NOTE: I am pre-emptively sucking the fun out of anyone that replies "It's just you". I thought of it first -- don't bother.

[Kiken]

Aside from DDPDOJ there´s nothing on PS2 that can touch the better DC shmups. Giga Wing/Border Down -> any Ps2 shmup (aside of DDP DOJ perhaps...)

The ironic thing is how shitty the CPS2 games (not limited to shooting -- doesn't one of the Street Fighter games have warped hit detection?) look on the DC, yet people praise them as the DCs saving grace. Mars Matrix takes poor resolution to a whole new level, by not only interlacing an otherwise beautiful screen, but fucking up the aspect ratio as well (which I understand is tweakable, but still---ass).

Both of these games run flawless in MAME... so, yeah, DC -2 for me, even though I like my DC. Just for very different reasons.

Street Fighter Alpha 3, yeah. GOD AWFUL port. Not only were the sprites squished down, and the hit detection fucked up, but the timing and even the combos themselves are screwy.

Glad I'm not the only one who thought Mars Matrix looked like ass on Dreamcast

Mars Matrix and Giga Wing were both stretched into 480p (both are VGA compatible) when they were ported to DC. This really did cause a lot of graphical issues (although, Mars Matrix was a rather ugly game to begin with). Gunbird 2, on the other hand, was kept in low-res when it got ported (the game looks like total ass if you try forcing it into VGA... not to mention that it begins to suffer from sprite loading errors once you hit level 4).

DC SFZ3 is a port of the NAOMI Upper version, not the CPS2 original. In that respect, it's an excellent port (includes a shitload of bonus modes) of a bad arcade conversion.

[beam]

1 - Saturn : Battle Garegga, Batsugun, Donpachi, Dodonpachi, Souky, Twin Bee, Fantasy Zone, Sonic Wing Special,
2 - MD : all the Toaplan ports, Bio Hazard Battle/Crying, Granada
3 - PS 2 : Ibara, DOJ, Gradius 5, R Type Final
4 - DC : Gunbird 2 , Trigger Heart Exelica, Border Down, Bangaioh (border liner), Gunbird 2

Surprised there isn't more mention of the genesis/megadrive--probably because it isn't the BEST shmup console, but it is the CHEAPEST!

It is if you buy carts only, but if you want mint or near mint japanese artworks and manuals, it's not. Last but not least Slapfight is pricier than most of the rare console games.

[louisg]

Yeah, those CPS2 ports are all pretty asstastic visually. You can prevent the vertical ripple though if you set the screen height to a multiple of 480, however the horizontal ripple will persist. The aspect ratio on MM though is fine though as far as I can tell-- it was a horizontal orientation game in the arcades. If you play the CPS2 games on emulator, you can see that they have a pretty whacked out resolution that is very wide but not so tall.

Re: Genesis games expensive-- It's pretty cheap considering that most of the good shooters came out in the US/UK, with Eliminate Down and Alien Soldier two pretty good games that are super pricey/rare.

[GaijinPunch]

Gunbird 2, on the other hand, was kept in low-res when it got ported (the game looks like total ass if you try forcing it into VGA... not to mention that it begins to suffer from sprite loading errors once you hit level 4).

I thought it simply "wouldn't work". Or work the same way watching porn on cable stations you didn't pay for worked back in the 80's.

I'm trying to think of all the low-res games on the DC, and it isn't a lot. Gunbird 2, Twinkle Star Sprites, and Bangaioh come to mind. I know there's one more but I can't think of it.

[Rob]

But for me, Giga Wing still beats out anything else I've played, even Mushihime and Cave's other stuff.

High five.

[Kiken]

I'm trying to think of all the low-res games on the DC, and it isn't a lot. Gunbird 2, Twinkle Star Sprites, and Bangaioh come to mind. I know there's one more but I can't think of it.

DC TSS is not low-res. It's been doubled to 480p (VGA compatible).

[louisg]

DC TSS is not low-res. It's been doubled to 480p (VGA compatible).

We're not going there! =)

You guys are making me want to start playing Gigawing again! Though, I find the end boss to be kind of unreasonable on that one.

[EOJ]

DC TSS is not low-res. It's been doubled to 480p (VGA compatible).

Really? Seems the saturn version is the one to get then, outside of the Neo-Geo original.

[GaijinPunch]

DC TSS is not low-res. It's been doubled to 480p (VGA compatible).

TSS True Low Res

After popping it in, the little "adjust your game screen" picture is interlaced, after that, it's non-interlaced 15khz. Maybe this is the only game that supports both true low res and the VGA box (although you should be stabbed in the dick for playing it on a VGA box).

Really? Seems the saturn version is the one to get then, outside of the Neo-Geo original.

Saturn version has the original movie clip if you're into that, and also features an emulated version w/ slowdown, and not. I don't believe the DC versison has those. So yeah, the Saturn version is pretty much the best one.

[jp]

Erm... DC version has the Neo-Geo mode, Neo-Geo CD mode, and "zero slowdown" DC mode. It also has 3 different soundtrack options and engrish.


Saturn version has an original mode and Saturn mode. Saturn Mode DOES have some slowdown, but it still runs a lot better than the Neo-Geo version. It has has some extra graphical flourishes that are exclusive to the Saturn, as well as an exclusive character.

[GaijinPunch]

And bonus disc.

[Kiken]

Erm... DC version has the Neo-Geo mode, Neo-Geo CD mode, and "zero slowdown" DC mode.

68000 @ 10 Mhz (this mode has way more slowdown than any Neo-Geo version)
Neo-Geo (68000 @ 12.6 Mhz)
DC

TSS True Low Res

After popping it in, the little "adjust your game screen" picture is interlaced, after that, it's non-interlaced 15khz. Maybe this is the only game that supports both true low res and the VGA box (although you should be stabbed in the dick for playing it on a VGA box).

Well, kudos to SNK/ADK for designing the game to handle both outputs then. And I try to play my DC as much as possible in VGA. I would have preferred if Gunbird 2 had VGA support since it's much easier and safer for me to tate my 17" CRT monitor than it is my 21" TV.

[CIT]

The real reason to get the Saturn version is because of the extra character Mei-Rin (the Chinese chick w/ the pandabear) - by far my favorite TSS chara!

[jp]

Erm... DC version has the Neo-Geo mode, Neo-Geo CD mode, and "zero slowdown" DC mode.

68000 @ 10 Mhz (this mode has way more slowdown than any Neo-Geo version)
Neo-Geo (68000 @ 12.6 Mhz)
DC

Doh! Guess I was thinking about soundtracks.

[ubersaurus]

Mars Matrix and Giga Wing were both stretched into 480p (both are VGA compatible) when they were ported to DC. This really did cause a lot of graphical issues (although, Mars Matrix was a rather ugly game to begin with). Gunbird 2, on the other hand, was kept in low-res when it got ported (the game looks like total ass if you try forcing it into VGA... not to mention that it begins to suffer from sprite loading errors once you hit level 4).

DC SFZ3 is a port of the NAOMI Upper version, not the CPS2 original. In that respect, it's an excellent port (includes a shitload of bonus modes) of a bad arcade conversion.

From what I heard over at shoryuken a while back, it's not even a good port of Upper. It has the extra characters of it and weakened Vism, but it still is inaccurate in combos and hit detection.

[CIT]

Dreamcast SFZ3 Saikyouryuu Doujou is not a port of Naomi's Upper at all. In fact, Upper is a "reverse port" of the DC SFZ3 to Naomi!

[Kiken]

Dreamcast SFZ3 Saikyouryuu Doujou is not a port of Naomi's Upper at all. In fact, Upper is a "reverse port" of the DC SFZ3 to Naomi!

Well, that would probably explain a lot then. However, I still like the fact that the DC version has a 3-player simultaneous option for the Dramatic Battle. Too bad the only other fighting game that they ported with more than two players was Marvel Vs Capcom (and not having unique control set-ups for players 3 and 4 was so half-assed).

[GaijinPunch]

I would have preferred if Gunbird 2 had VGA support since it's much easier and safer for me to tate my 17" CRT monitor than it is my 21" TV.

That I understand, although I gotta say sometimes you have to live life on the edge. Of course, I had a CRT just blow out on me one day, and it cost me 4000 yen to throw it away.