Rockwaldo's Quest to play 4000 arcade games on MAME.

[Rockwaldo]

Quite aggressive there luv aren't we?

The first statement i made was a question not a statement, i'm suggesting that we don't know whether they have already tried to contact them, that's all. Im not "in" with them, i spoke to the main man personally the other day for a few hours, that's all. If i ever meet him again, i will ask him as it is very interesting.

2nd point, I'm not saying that Japanese gamers are not nice people, I am suggesting that numerous Japanese organisations traditionally shy away from getting involved with Western companies, and that is absolutely fair enough. I don't think they should join up, the language barrier is enough to make that extremely tricky IMO, but it's not a reason to hate TG.

Finally, my attitute? Are you sure? If anything, i have been more than courteous here in the face of some very un-called for attacks and sneering comments. I was merely suggesting that rather than bitching about how stupid TG are and how rubbish their scores are, easily beaten by anyone with hands - why not challenge them by throwing some decent scores at them? It would help both parties i'm sure. If you dont want to, then that's fine, but it does take your angry stance down a peg or two if you dont at least try?

So please don't pull me up on some imaginary attitude issue please, as I am genuinely interested why there is so much hate - 2 of your three reasons for not submitting to TG are purely down to a dislike for them for example. Aside from a few crazy old submission rules, thats a bit harsh isnt it?

Either I am missing some massive arrogance from TG, and i would LOVE to see some examples if anyone can help me on that, or there is just a general anti-american thing going on?

[freddiebamboo]

Either I am missing some massive arrogance from TG, and i would LOVE to see some examples if anyone can help me on that, or there is just a general anti-american thing going on?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBdF7D46IJE

[Shatterhand]

You bunch of elitist jerks.

Also, this is off-topic. Now if someone were to play through and give brief impressions of all 80s arcade shooters, that'd be interesting. To me.

I'll do it Rob

Just for you

Cool (if you're serious). I've been thinking about doing it but it's quite the task, and first I'd need to come up with a list of them (this thread stops at '88 unfortunately). I think it would be a good idea to just make 1 thread for each year and update as you play them. The board could use some better, more interesting threads like that. There's plenty of underexposed/unmentioned shooters.

I've decided.. I'll do it. But I'll steal Rockwaldo's style (if he doesn't mind... would you mind, mate?), I'll do it in a blog (and I'll post the updates in a dedicated thread here), but instead of 80s shmups, I think I'll play every shmup on Mame, in alphabetical order. I'll do it like Rockwaldo, play 3 times, then write a short text with my impressions of the game (No deep review or anything, just a description of the gameplay and some of my personal impressions). I'll also do it in both english and portuguese, so my fellows from the brazilian shmups forum from Orkut can also read it.

And when I finish this (I plan to play one game per day, so this means I'll finish like.. in 2 years? ) I'll start an MSX Shmups blog

So.. Rob.. since you gave the idea... what do you say?

[Rockwaldo]

Either I am missing some massive arrogance from TG, and i would LOVE to see some examples if anyone can help me on that, or there is just a general anti-american thing going on?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBdF7D46IJE

That's just an individual American guy, nothing to do with Twin Galaxies. I want to see examples of Twin Galaxies themselves being arrogant.

That game looks nice though, have to say - haven't played that one before!

[Rockwaldo]

I've decided.. I'll do it. But I'll steal Rockwaldo's style (if he doesn't mind... would you mind, mate?)

Ha! of course mate, you'll have fun believe me...

[Icarus]

Quite aggressive there luv aren't we?

You haven't met some of our more pleasant members, then.

The first statement i made was a question not a statement, i'm suggesting that we don't know whether they have already tried to contact them, that's all. Im not "in" with them, i spoke to the main man personally the other day for a few hours, that's all. If i ever meet him again, i will ask him as it is very interesting.

And mine was a question in reply to your question. You are in contact with him, even if it is brief. If it really interests you as much as you say, then ask him and find out. I for one would be interested in the reply.

2nd point, I'm not saying that Japanese gamers are not nice people, I am suggesting that numerous Japanese organisations traditionally shy away from getting involved with Western companies, and that is absolutely fair enough. I don't think they should join up, the language barrier is enough to make that extremely tricky IMO, but it's not a reason to hate TG.

Yes, they traditionally shy away from Western groups because of that language barrier. No Japanese company I know of has ever made the first move in establishing communication because of that, but that isn't to say they would not wish to work together with Western companies.

Individual players from non-English speaking countries occasionally pop up here and submit scores, sometimes discussing games too (RAM I mentioned before, there was also Chinese player WEN and Japanese Garegga master KET to namedrop two more). Who's to say that Japanese companies wouldn't do the same thing and seek out other like-minded companies? There might be a language barrier, but the first step to removing that barrier is to establish communication, and it doesn't matter who instigates it.

Finally, my attitute? Are you sure? If anything, i have been more than courteous here in the face of some very un-called for attacks and sneering comments. I was merely suggesting that rather than bitching about how stupid TG are and how rubbish their scores are, easily beaten by anyone with hands - why not challenge them by throwing some decent scores at them? It would help both parties i'm sure. If you dont want to, then that's fine, but it does take your angry stance down a peg or two if you dont at least try?

I might just do that.
*puts selection of game names in a hat and picks at random*
*checks TG scoreboards*
Oh ho.

So please don't pull me up on some imaginary attitude issue please, as I am genuinely interested why there is so much hate - 2 of your three reasons for not submitting to TG are purely down to a dislike for them for example. Aside from a few crazy old submission rules, thats a bit harsh isnt it?

Like I said, first impression sticks. I don't submit to MARP as I rarely record MAME inputs, but unlike TG I rate MARP higher as they don't boast about being the "world authority since 1981". It's like holding a World Championship tournament and only inviting Western players. ¯\(º_o)/¯

[Rockwaldo]

Funnily enough i have emailled Walter Day on this very subject. I will of course let you know of his response if i get one.

I think what we may be confusing here is the individuals that submit to Twin Galaxies , and Twin Galaxies themselves. Watching that clip again from a few posts ago, i read some of the discussion.
And yes, his attitude of "who cares about the scores, us Americans use TG, and i win at that" is rubbish. But that's just a widespread American trait (similar to their baseball WORLD series) so i dont get too upset about it.

I know for a fact that if i was that guy and my "record" was so pathetically far off the Japanese record, i certainly wouldnt boast about it - and in the unlikley event that i beat a TG record during my blog, the FIRST place i will check will be the Japanese score, probably just to cry at how much better they are, as i dont claim to be anything special...

[Icarus]

Funnily enough i have emailled Walter Day on this very subject. I will of course let you know of his response if i get one.

Thank you. His response would probably interest a few people here.

I think what we may be confusing here is the individuals that submit to Twin Galaxies , and Twin Galaxies themselves. Watching that clip again from a few posts ago, i read some of the discussion.
And yes, his attitude of "who cares about the scores, us Americans use TG, and i win at that" is rubbish. But that's just a widespread American trait (similar to their baseball WORLD series) so i dont get too upset about it.

That goes back to being misinformed. If I remember correctly, TG used to advertise in magazines a long time ago. Even back then they were using their tagline "world authority since 1981", and no one would really question that, because back then the internet was still young and sites like AIVA weren't around yet.

Nowadays, players genuinely interested in actual records have better access to those records, either from importing old Gamest and more recent Arcadia straight from Japan, or checking around on various sites that list records, or even the sites of actual world record players themselves. Quite a few Japanese WR holders have sites listed online, and with a bit of searching they are easily found. Said players occasionally release replays of record scores (I am reminded of the Dangun Feveron WR DVD I picked up a while ago from CKDF, that smokes any scores MARP, TG, even us here at Shmups have, as an example).

That's why TG has lost a lot of credibility, because while they still proclaim to the the world's authority (and even releasing a Book of World Records, no less), players actually interested in the real records can find them with no problems, and realise that a large majority of the records on TG are, as some have already put it, laughable.

I know for a fact that if i was that guy and my "record" was so pathetically far off the Japanese record, i certainly wouldnt boast about it - and in the unlikley event that i beat a TG record during my blog, the FIRST place i will check will be the Japanese score, probably just to cry at how much better they are, as i dont claim to be anything special...

I wouldn't worry about it. A lot of our players here cry at the achievements of the Japanese, but that doesn't mean to say that we don't respect their achievements. A handful of us are actively making in-roads to try and catch up with these records, and some excellent players have emerged over the years here. The only problem is that our information network with regards to these games is pitifully small compared to the Japanese, so we'll always be behind. But the gap is closing.

But since you're here, you should stick around and get a feel for the place. While most of the arguments and stuff go on in Shmups Chat, the real action is in the High Scores and Strategy forums. ^_-

[Pirate1019]

Also, i dont see TG being so anally definitive as to say that they are the all seeing highest scores in the world, bar none, organisation.

The official electronic scoreboard
Since 1981, the worldwide authority on player rankings, gaming statistics, and championship tournaments.

[Rockwaldo]

Cheers, makes sense.

I do wonder though, and obviously this being the shmups forum it would be like this, whether TG is actually a lot different when you look at it outside of shooting games.

Missile Command for example has no records anywhere, so TG's record is a fine achievement. Looking through the list on the Italian website linked earlier, there are absolutely hundreds of games that arent listed that are in TG. I think when you look outside of shmups, the Japanese guys have less interest, and therefore less controversy elsewhere perhaps?

Saying all this, shmups are my favorite genre as i've mentioned, so i shall be sticking around. One thing interests me though, the first post in this thread proclaimed that i had played my first shmup with 1943. What about 1942, is that not a shmup?

[Rockwaldo]

Also, i dont see TG being so anally definitive as to say that they are the all seeing highest scores in the world, bar none, organisation.

The official electronic scoreboard
Since 1981, the worldwide authority on player rankings, gaming statistics, and championship tournaments.

I know it's a bit tongue in cheek, but they dont actually profess to having the best scores, just being an authority and they DO have close links with the Guinness book of records, so it isnt all guff.

[Shatterhand]

1942 is a shmup.. I also noticed this small mistake in the original post

You soon will be playing Armed Police Batrider... he he he he ..

[Icarus]

I do wonder though, and obviously this being the shmups forum it would be like this, whether TG is actually a lot different when you look at it outside of shooting games.

Missile Command for example has no records anywhere, so TG's record is a fine achievement. Looking through the list on the Italian website linked earlier, there are absolutely hundreds of games that arent listed that are in TG. I think when you look outside of shmups, the Japanese guys have less interest, and therefore less controversy elsewhere perhaps?

Not sure about that. All I know is that in Japan, recent record-keeping started with Gamest Magazine. After Gamest disappeared, Arcadia started keeping records in their place. AIVA use both Gamest and Arcadia records as their base, however I think AIVA only list shootemups (as the owner of the site has an interest in this particular genre). I have no idea if there was any form of record keeping before Gamest. I wouldn't rule out the possibility, however. We probably just don't know about it.

The only person who'd know if Gamest lists other genres is GEMANT, the owner of AIVA. I know Arcadia do list other genres occasionally.

One thing interests me though, the first post in this thread proclaimed that i had played my first shmup with 1943. What about 1942, is that not a shmup?

I think that comment meant that you hit your first shmup blog post with 1943. Although Shatterhand is right, the comment is wrong, and the first shmup blog post was for 1942.

(What happened to 1941?)

You soon will be playing Armed Police Batrider... he he he he ..

Don't scare the man off. ^_- Battle Garegga, Guwange, Dragon Blaze, Mars Matrix... now those will make or break a man. ^_-

[Rockwaldo]

One thing interests me though, the first post in this thread proclaimed that i had played my first shmup with 1943. What about 1942, is that not a shmup?

I think that comment meant that you hit your first shmup blog post with 1943. Although Shatternahd is right, the comment is wrong, and the first shmup blog post was for 1942.

(What happened to 1941?)

But i played 1942 first, one game before 1943 even...

As for 1941, it's not listed in the arcade section for some reason, only the MAME ones.

[Pirate1019]

You haven't met some of our more pleasant members, then.

enter, Ceph.

I know it's a bit tongue in cheek, but they dont actually profess to having the best scores

Doesn't "Official electronic scoreboard" and "Authority on this, this and that" seem to heavily imply that they do have all of the world records? How can you release a book that says "official book of world records" on the cover and not claim to have world records?

[Icarus]

But i played 1942 first, one game before 1943 even...

As for 1941, it's not listed in the arcade section for some reason, only the MAME ones.

1941: Counter Attack should indeed be in MAME, as it is an arcade game first and foremost.

[Shatterhand]

and 19xx and 1944: The Loop Master . I also noticed that.

Maybe they aren't listed in TG, so Rockwaldo just didn't care about it?

[Pirate1019]

Too bad 1941 is terrible.

Edit: Nevermind. Mistook it for 1942.

[Icarus]

Too bad 1941 is terrible.

/golfclap

I have fond memories of 1941, playing it in the arcades as a kid.
19XX is far superior, however.

[Rockwaldo]

and 19xx and 1944: The Loop Master . I also noticed that.

Maybe they aren't listed in TG, so Rockwaldo just didn't care about it?

It's not in the book certainly, so i cant include them!

[Rockwaldo]

Too bad 1941 is terrible.

Edit: Nevermind. Mistook it for 1942.

Oh, thats harsh! 1942 is a classic!

[Pirate1019]

Too bad 1941 is terrible.

Edit: Nevermind. Mistook it for 1942.

Oh, thats harsh! 1942 is a classic!

Classic =/= Good. I was never a fan of the 19 series. Although, no matter how much I dislike them, I still have every one in MAME.

[incognoscente]

Not sure about that. All I know is that in Japan, recent record-keeping started with Gamest Magazine. After Gamest disappeared, Arcadia started keeping records in their place. AIVA use both Gamest and Arcadia records as their base, however I think AIVA only list shootemups (as the owner of the site has an interest in this particular genre). I have no idea if there was any form of record keeping before Gamest. I wouldn't rule out the possibility, however. We probably just don't know about it.

Gemant has scores from all applicable genres (racing, puzzle, platform, fighting, rhythm, shooting) in I Records di Gamest/The Records of Gamest. He has also compiled potentially unverified scores from Mycom Basic which predates Gamest.

These are verified by operators in arcades or via MAME inps, then published in Arcadia magazine. Some Italian dude was nice enough to catalog them online.

Gemant lists MAME inputs that rival Gamest/Arcadia records, but to my knowledge they are not recognized by Arcadia.

[Icarus]

Gemant has scores from all applicable genres (racing, puzzle, platform, fighting, rhythm, shooting) in I Records di Gamest/The Records of Gamest. He has also compiled potentially unverified scores from Mycom Basic which predates Gamest.

Ahh, that's good to know.
I only visited AIVA for shootemup records, though. ^_-

[Rockwaldo]

You see, only 2 of the 7 games i have played so far in my blog are on that list. That's quite a few!

[Rockwaldo]

Annnnnd, I have a response from Walter from twin galaxies for those that are interested.

Twin Galaxies verifies and reports scores on gameplay that it receives in hand via videotape or referees in person at an event. It's absolutely certain that many players throughout the world can challenge the USA and British scores. The players who support Arcadia are definitely correct that there are scores ion the far east that are the world records, far superior to scores in the USA.

Interestingly, games that have a big following in America are commonly held by Americans. And games that are big in the Far East are commonly held by the players fromthat region. There are very few instances of the same game being equally as popular both in Japan and the USA. If that happens more and more, we might have the opportunity to see which region is more dominant on those games played in common.

As for our scorekeeping activities, however, difficulty settings and ROM sets differ widely, making it almost impossible to compare scores. Also, many titles in the far east are not distributed in the West. But, mainly, the language difference and the vast distance of miles between the two cultures make it presently impossible to bring the two groups (Japan and USA) together.

When that happens someday, then the confusion will be cleared up and the world will know who the true champions are. Because, at that time, they will be playing on the same hardware and the same software.

You can publish this message as you see fit.

Respectfully,

--
Walter Day
President Twin Galaxies

Now, that doesn't sound at ALL like arrogance to me, neither does he claim to be the only place that have so called WORLD records.

While perhaps he doesn't make any promises to make that much effort from his side, it has to be commended that he is so open and honest about it.

Anyway, make of it what you will.

[Icarus]

Anyway, make of it what you will.

Hmmm... nice. Some good points. Thanks for posting.

My only comments:

1) Regarding "scorekeeping activities":
Difficulty and ROM sets shouldn't be a factor in score comparison. Given that a large amount of games are now available in MAME/Raine/whatever, it should be fairly easy to come up with a standardised setup system.

Since a large portion of games come from Japan, perhaps emulator score submissions should be standardised to Japanese defaults and ROMsets? A lot of scoreboards for shootemups only accept Japanese defaults and ROMs (with the exception of MARP with basically covers everything in MAME, even clones). Here at Shmups we only ever accept Japanese defaults where applicable (and with occasional exceptions), which makes it easier to compare.

2) Regarding "language difference":
Do, or do not: there is no 'try'.
There's no harm in giving it a go. Who knows? They might jump at the chance to collaborate.

3) Regarding "vast distance of miles":
While air-miles only becomes a factor in holding live tournaments, e-mail and chatroom correspondence closes that gap considerably with regards to communication.

[Rockwaldo]

Yeah all true, but i also read into that the fact that TG dont really get much in the way of submissions regarding the Japanese games - explaining why the scores they do have are so low. This would then extend to the fact that any "record" holder on TG who professes to be the best in the world at one of these games is deluded, as Walter categorically states that the Asian scores are that much better for these games.

I know there are fine points of arguement still left, but hopefully some people here that have so far been upset by the TG thing at least understand the basic feeling that i am coming from, and Walter happily enforces that for me.

[zakk]

Anyway, make of it what you will.

Hmmm... nice. Some good points. Thanks for posting.

My only comments:

1) Regarding "scorekeeping activities":
Difficulty and ROM sets shouldn't be a factor in score comparison. Given that a large amount of games are now available in MAME/Raine/whatever, it should be fairly easy to come up with a standardised setup system.

Since a large portion of games come from Japan, perhaps emulator score submissions should be standardised to Japanese defaults and ROMsets? A lot of scoreboards for shootemups only accept Japanese defaults and ROMs (with the exception of MARP with basically covers everything in MAME, even clones). Here at Shmups we only ever accept Japanese defaults where applicable (and with occasional exceptions), which makes it easier to compare.

The only real issue, which I brought up before, is that a good number of japanese records are technically ineligiable for TG due to autofire use. WIZ's Ikaruga score? Breaks TG rules. etc etc.

If anything this is the gap that prevents true integration. Japanese players see no problem with fitting cabs with refresh-timed/adjustable autofire circuits and using them to exploit game mechanics. As long as said autofire doesn't break the game entirely it'll be accepted as a record by Arcadia. (Look to Mushi as an illustration of how awesomely absurd this can get)

Western players seem to view this as cheating. I'm sure we can have a whole other amazing thread about this; but let's not go there right now.

One other thing makes me nervous is the wording in TG rules about 'no leeching/scabbing' etc. It's just too liberal and I'm not really going to try to figure out what's ok and what's not. (Or risk that what they determine to be 'not ok' is silly)

Personally I'd do away with such rules. If a game can be BROKEN via infinite leeching; it is ineligible for record keeping. Otherwise, fair game.

[Icarus]

The only real issue, which I brought up before, is that a good number of japanese records are technically ineligiable for TG due to autofire use. WIZ's Ikaruga score? Breaks TG rules. etc etc.

If anything this is the gap that prevents true integration. Japanese players see no problem with fitting cabs with refresh-timed/adjustable autofire circuits and using them to exploit game mechanics. As long as said autofire doesn't break the game entirely it'll be accepted as a record by Arcadia. (Look to Mushi as an illustration of how awesomely absurd this can get)

Western players seem to view this as cheating. I'm sure we can have a whole other amazing thread about this; but let's not go there right now.

That's true. The Japanese do like pushing the limits of what can be done with the games, especially if it needs some kind of custom setup. I remember DEL telling me about some kind of Border Down autofire circuit that somehow manages to add half a level bar after releasing the Break Laser. Such things are pretty amazing, but really make it hard to even come close to particular records.

Mushi is just stupid with autofire. But lets not go there right now. PIANO PLAYING!

One other thing makes me nervous is the wording in TG rules about 'no leeching/scabbing' etc. It's just too liberal and I'm not really going to try to figure out what's ok and what's not. (Or risk that what they determine to be 'not ok' is silly)

Personally I'd do away with such rules. If a game can be BROKEN via infinite leeching; it is ineligible for record keeping. Otherwise, fair game.

I agree with the bolded statement. Scoring techniques are there to be used, but if they can be done infinitely and without risk, then that particular game should not be available for score submission/tournament play.