Rockwaldo's Quest to play 4000 arcade games on MAME.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 11:06 pm

It is sort of fun, and, I'll admit, the only way I'd get enough motivation to play these. I might just keep going up after I'm finished with '83. I'm not going backwards though. Anything that came out before Bio Attack cannot possibly be worth playing.

the2bears · Post by **the2bears** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 7:55 pm

What a sad thread. With a few exceptions there is nothing but negativity here. So you don't like Rockwaldo's joystick? So the record book is nothing near authoritative? So what? The guy found a project that's going to be fun, for him.

Bill

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:06 am

Sad? I'm voluntarily playing games that make my eyes bleed...For the greater good...

the2bears · Post by **the2bears** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:17 am

Pirate1019 wrote:Sad? I'm voluntarily playing games that make my eyes bleed...For the greater good...

Heh... there is that, at least you have a positve attitude about your sacrifice

Bill

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:18 am

It's hard to keep that outlook after playing Bio Attack.

Rockwaldo · Post by **Rockwaldo** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:40 am

Wow.
I've been to my fair share of forums in my time, but this thread is a charmer!

To answer a few questions:

- I'm not a yank as one of the early posters suggested, i'm from the UK, not that it matters.
- Some of you people take this sort of thing WAY too seriously. I mean really, just read some of my blog - do i sound like someone who is doing this for the fun of it all, or do i want to be a "world record" holder?
- What's wrong with my X-arcade? is it sad to like them here as well? For the guy that said it would break after 100 games, ive had the thing for over 5 YEARS, and it has been to MAME competitions countrywide as part of the retrovision / bit live events. I find that it still works a treat, its made from standard arcade parts in most part, so a little adjustment of the leaf switches every now and then is all i've needed to do.

As for the Twin Galaxies thing - i know i've said to a few people that i didnt want the blog bunged up with arguements about TG, but i want to know a few things.

1) I dont sit on Twin Galaxies "side of the fence". I didnt even know there was a fence.
2) Why is it that a lot of you hate them so much? It would appear that its due to seeing them as arogant americans, but if you had met and chatted with the founder, Walter Day, as i did a few weeks ago, you would see that there has rarely been a less arrogant chap than he.

The thing that struck me about Walter, was that he was so genuine and had a very clear love for the classic games. And that was enough for me to respect his book. Also, in a more offical capacity his book is close to the Guinness book of records, which has to mean something.

So why are the "proper" records as you guys put it not included? I'm pretty sure its not due to them being purposely ignored. Do the communities that have these scores not want to get involved in TG and what they do? If that's the case (and i suspect it may be) then that isn't TG's fault really is it? There was mention of "stupid submission rules", do TG have silly rules that stop it?

I am genuinly interested, so maybe some people can explain it to me?

As for the project, i'm glad some of you are enjoying it. Shmups are my favorite genre, and i suspect they are the games i will be better at. I really wont be troubling the high scores though, and maybe thats my point - it's as much about playing through the old classics as it is to do with the book, and even then the records are only really a reference point.

Finally, i have to say, I dont know a lot of you guys on here, but there has been some quite sneery "looking down your nose" comments about the blog itself - is that common here, or have i angered people specifically? If i have, i'm sorry - but really do try to take it at face value rather than a challenge to anything you chaps may believe in.

cheers!

durias · Post by **durias** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:17 am

Rockwaldo wrote:I've been to my fair share of forums in my time, but this thread is a charmer!

Welcome aboard, Rockwaldo!

Post by **Shatterhand** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:56 am

Well, one thing is that Twin Galaxies feel a little too... "arrogant" (can't find a better word), saying they have the best scores and all, while basically ignoring the whole east side of world, where most of the true great players are. Some of the said "hi-scores" there are pretty ridiculous.

I don't think anyone had anything against what you are doing, only against Twin Galaxies

I personally thought that what you are doing is a real fun thing to do...

And about X-Arcade, it's usually regarded as a not very good arcade controller. You could find better sticks to play

Rockwaldo · Post by **Rockwaldo** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:10 am

Shatterhand wrote:Well, one thing is that Twin Galaxies feel a little too... "arrogant" (can't find a better word), saying they have the best scores and all, while basically ignoring the whole east side of world, where most of the true great players are. Some of the said "hi-scores" there are pretty ridiculous.

I don't think anyone had anything against what you are doing, only against Twin Galaxies I personally thought that what you are doing is a real fun thing to do...

And about X-Arcade, it's usually regarded as a not very good arcade controller. You could find better sticks to play

Fair enough, but if that is the case, why dont the eastern side of the world simply submit their scores to TG? Surely then it will all work out. If the East dont submit a score, then TG cant be to blame for not having the their records bettered?

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:03 am

1. Language barriers
2. They have much better places to submit their much better scores.
3. I heard through the grapevine that TG has absurd submission requirements.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:07 am

Rockwaldo wrote:
Shatterhand wrote:Well, one thing is that Twin Galaxies feel a little too... "arrogant" (can't find a better word), saying they have the best scores and all, while basically ignoring the whole east side of world, where most of the true great players are. Some of the said "hi-scores" there are pretty ridiculous.

I don't think anyone had anything against what you are doing, only against Twin Galaxies I personally thought that what you are doing is a real fun thing to do...

And about X-Arcade, it's usually regarded as a not very good arcade controller. You could find better sticks to play
Fair enough, but if that is the case, why dont the eastern side of the world simply submit their scores to TG? Surely then it will all work out. If the East dont submit a score, then TG cant be to blame for not having the their records bettered?

1) TG's submission and proof process is a bit annoying.
2) They have Arcadia
3) They really don't care.

If TG wants to keep some records, that's great. But calling them 'world' records is a bit silly.

There's clearly at least one definitive record keeping entity outside of the US (arcadia, currently) that they ignore. Maybe Arcadia doesn't follow the awesomely annoying VHS-tape-only method of verification, but they take their verification VERY seriously so there's no reason those scores can't be somehow incorporated, or at the very least noted.

That said the VHS requirement is really kind of silly these days. I'm not even sure I have a functional VHS machine.

ninja edit: also how are arcade-only players supposed to submit VHS tapes? I mean some arcades in japan have machines hooked up to VCRs, but it's not going to help you if the game you're playing isn't in the machine.

Deets · Post by **Deets** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:13 am

TG seems to be accepting non-VHS formats these days, actually.

Pirate1019 · Post by **Pirate1019** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:19 am

What are Arcadia's requirements for submission anyway? I've never read up on it for several reasons, least of which is I don't read Japanese.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:25 am

Ok, that seems slightly less annoying.

Although I think it's funny how many japanese scores would be ineligable for submission due to autofire use.

zakk · Post by **zakk** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:27 am

Pirate1019 wrote:What are Arcadia's requirements for submission anyway? I've never read up on it for several reasons, least of which is I don't read Japanese.

If I remember right it's verified by the arcade operator. It may even be submitted to Arcadia by the operator; but I'm not sure about that.

shinsage · Post by **shinsage** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:57 am

Rockwaldo wrote: Finally, i have to say, I dont know a lot of you guys on here, but there has been some quite sneery "looking down your nose" comments about the blog itself

welcome to the shmups forums.

Rockwaldo · Post by **Rockwaldo** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:04 am

Thanks for the welcome chaps!

See, thats what i thought. I didnt think that TG had crazy requirements - and i'm pretty convinced that they would accept a foreign referee's verification if the record was done at an actual arcade (the VHS verification is usually for home records i think).

From talking to Walter (i know i keep going on about him, i dont love him or anything..

) his aim is to be the definitive resource, and i'm sure he would love the arcadia boys to be part of the family somehow. As is often the case though, The East and the West don't really have that sort of relationship perhaps? Now, while this is disapointing for all concerned - i don't see it as a very valid reason to have a go at TG, i mean they have the best scores that are submitted - rubbish or not.

I know the Missile Command champion, Tony Temple, personally - and its actually rather easy to submit a record from home - If the scores for some of the games on TG are that rubbish, why dont some of you guys get some proper scores posted?

Rockwaldo · Post by **Rockwaldo** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:06 am

also (and apologies for double posting), just reading through my blog again last night i noticed that i always refer to the records as simply "records" not WORLD records, which actually ties in nicely with the book rather than any claim to be a world beater.

cigsthecat · Post by **cigsthecat** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 11:14 am

If you want to check the actual world records for the games Rockwaldo, look here:

http://www.aiva.emuita.it/gamest.php

These are verified by operators in arcades or via MAME inps, then published in Arcadia magazine. Some Italian dude was nice enough to catalog them online.

If you want to know the TG records, use their book but keep in mind that very few of them are even close to the actual world records.

The reason no one respects them has nothing to do with how nice of a chap the organizer is or isn't- it's simply because the majority of their records seem to be a bunch of guys that played a game 2 or 3 times then mailed off a videotape. If they didn't claim "world records" no one would care. These days it's extremely easy to find the real records and it makes Twin Galaxies look silly.

Dandy J · Post by **Dandy J** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:20 pm

Dandy J wrote:
ArrogantBastard wrote:Laughable.
im picturing your avatar saying this and its lole

i dont think you guys are properly appreciating this

Rockwaldo · Post by **Rockwaldo** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:43 pm

cigsthecat wrote:If you want to check the actual world records for the games Rockwaldo, look here:

http://www.aiva.emuita.it/gamest.php

These are verified by operators in arcades or via MAME inps, then published in Arcadia magazine. Some Italian dude was nice enough to catalog them online.

If you want to know the TG records, use their book but keep in mind that very few of them are even close to the actual world records.

The reason no one respects them has nothing to do with how nice of a chap the organizer is or isn't- it's simply because the majority of their records seem to be a bunch of guys that played a game 2 or 3 times then mailed off a videotape. If they didn't claim "world records" no one would care. These days it's extremely easy to find the real records and it makes Twin Galaxies look silly.

Fair enough, but to be fair, almost ALL of the records in the book, and indeed TG itself are arcade verified NOT recordings. Therefore, the question remains, why are the Asian records not submitted? As i say, i dont think its because TG actively block them.

And i know i keep going on about the nice guy thing, and yes i know it isn't that important in the big scheme of things - but he is genuinely trying to keep record of the best scores for every game, that's my point. He isn't being arrogantly American, or saving face for his American record holding chums - i'm sure he would love the higher scores to be included. It really isn't his fault if the other record holding group dont want anything to do with him?

Take the Guinness book of records as an example. Some guy can spin a thousand plates at once, and it has been verified by a Guinness judge somehow. Now, some guy in Japan can spin 3 thousand plates but doesnt want to submit to Guinness because they are Western, or whatever reason. So he submits to a local record holding organisation instead. That doesnt stop the thousand plate man being a Guinness world record holder, and it certainly isn't Guinness' fault that they dont have the better score (i'm getting thristy now with all this talk of Guinness!). Ok, 1000 plates isnt the best out there, but it IS the record as far as Guinness is concerned until they recieve otherwise. With TG it's the same. All of it's records are TG world records, not the best of the best EVER anywhere.

so what's the answer? Well obviously both sides need to get together and agree on something, and it would be the responsibility of both to do so. It isnt going to happen though is it, for reasons that both of them have - so we have to make do without really discrediting either.

cigsthecat · Post by **cigsthecat** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:58 pm

The point is that TG loudly claims World Records while it's extremely well documented and known that they are not. If TG is truly interested in creating a record of the best scores in the world, they need to acknowledge the japanese records. The Japanese records have been proven with methods just as exacting as TG scores, so there is no need to mail VHS tapes around the globe.

But then the book would be full of japanese dudes no one's heard of and the book wouldn't sell.

Rockwaldo · Post by **Rockwaldo** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:24 pm

Fair enough, although i'm not so sure that the book wouldn't sell.

I dont see why everyone is so vocal about these VHS tapes, all it would take is for the arcade owners or verifiers to be accepted into the TG network, whatever that would take. Then that would be it. It won't happen though, it would take effort from BOTH SIDES that i believe neither would be happy with.

The point i'm making is that it would at least be equal responsibility from both parties, not TG's fault alone which seems to be the feeling?

Do the othee list claim to be world records? Even for the scores that are less than TG's ones? I couldnt find Missile Command on their list for example?

RotateMe · Post by **RotateMe** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:51 pm

Whether TG is cool or not, I love your project Rockwaldo and you're right it's clearly visible that you're doing this for the fun of it, and you even share the fun by documenting your observations.

The TG scores, while not being world records, are at least some good numbers to compare your scores to and it makes it easier to see how much you accomplished in a game.

Thanks and welcome!

Acid King · Post by **Acid King** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:13 pm

The reason I responded the way I did was because you questioned whether or not a record was verified by them. You're using their book as the benchmark for scores and seemingly questioning the validity of other recognized scores and lending legitimacy to Twin Galaxies by doing that. Whether or not you want to be a world record holder doesn't matter, but Twin galaxies really shouldn't be used as a benchmark for scores.

Rockwaldo wrote:
And i know i keep going on about the nice guy thing, and yes i know it isn't that important in the big scheme of things - but he is genuinely trying to keep record of the best scores for every game, that's my point. He isn't being arrogantly American, or saving face for his American record holding chums - i'm sure he would love the higher scores to be included. It really isn't his fault if the other record holding group dont want anything to do with him?

I don't know that he is though. I mean, look at the Twin Galaxies world record for normal in Ikaruga. That score can be tripled in the first stage alone. The official Ikaruga competition held by Atari had scores over 30 million but none of those scores are to be found or mentioned anywhere, though they were verified by Atari, only one lone 1 million point score because some kid decided to put a tape together. The world record listed for Starforce was topped by something like 50 out of 60 players in last years tournament. I don't know how genuine he can be in wanting to keep track of the best scores for every game when scores that low can be claimed as world records just because someone went through Twin Galaxies verification process. So many of the "records" are just laughably illegitimate.

Rockwaldo · Post by **Rockwaldo** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:59 pm

Acid King wrote:The reason I responded the way I did was because you questioned whether or not a record was verified by them. You're using their book as the benchmark for scores and seemingly questioning the validity of other recognized scores and lending legitimacy to Twin Galaxies by doing that. Whether or not you want to be a world record holder doesn't matter, but Twin galaxies really shouldn't be used as a benchmark for scores.

Rockwaldo wrote:
And i know i keep going on about the nice guy thing, and yes i know it isn't that important in the big scheme of things - but he is genuinely trying to keep record of the best scores for every game, that's my point. He isn't being arrogantly American, or saving face for his American record holding chums - i'm sure he would love the higher scores to be included. It really isn't his fault if the other record holding group dont want anything to do with him?
I don't know that he is though. I mean, look at the Twin Galaxies world record for normal in Ikaruga. That score can be tripled in the first stage alone. The official Ikaruga competition held by Atari had scores over 30 million but none of those scores are to be found or mentioned anywhere, though they were verified by Atari, only one lone 1 million point score because some kid decided to put a tape together. The world record listed for Starforce was topped by something like 50 out of 60 players in last years tournament. I don't know how genuine he can be in wanting to keep track of the best scores for every game when scores that low can be claimed as world records just because someone went through Twin Galaxies verification process. So many of the "records" are just laughably illegitimate.

So what are you suggesting? That Twin Galaxies go out and actively SEEK these other records? That isnt feasible surely, they have to rely on what is submitted to them, and if they arent submitted - irrespective of validity, then they can't be included.

I wont speak on the newer games, such as Ikaruga, as they are of no interest to me or my project (outside of playing for fun of course, i love Ikaruga on my DC) and to be fair i think TG are over-reaching slighty by focusing wider then just the retro arcade games.

Thanks for the answers so far though, i am genuinely interested in the reason why so many people hate TG so much.

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:17 pm

Rockwaldo wrote:So what are you suggesting? That Twin Galaxies go out and actively SEEK these other records? That isnt feasible surely, they have to rely on what is submitted to them, and if they arent submitted - irrespective of validity, then they can't be included.

Why not?

MARP, Gamest, Arcadia and probably some other sources hold and list verified scores. Surely it isn't difficult to fire off a few e-mails and get communicating? Possibly find some way of affiliating yourself with other known record listings?

In this day and age of networking technology, the world is a smaller, more accessible place.

Rockwaldo wrote:I wont speak on the newer games, such as Ikaruga, as they are of no interest to me or my project (outside of playing for fun of course, i love Ikaruga on my DC) and to be fair i think TG are over-reaching slighty by focusing wider then just the retro arcade games.

And to be fair, a large portion of the 4,000 games you (and they) will be covering aren't exactly "retro" by definition. Some are pretty recent (Brave Blade? G-Darius? Progear no Arashi? Batrider?)

If you're going to call yourself "The Worldwide Authority on Player Rankings, Game Statistics and Championship Tournaments", one could at least be more vigilant in including as many of the available games as humanly possible, as well as involving as many players as possible.

Rockwaldo wrote:Thanks for the answers so far though, i am genuinely interested in the reason why so many people hate TG so much.

As someone else said, we have no problem with your project (it is pretty interesting). TG calling their site "The Worldwide Authority" without actually involving the rest of the world rubs people the wrong way here, and if you use them as a base and class them as the be-all-and-end-all of records then you have every right to be called on it. Until TG get affiliated with more records listings and actively change the way they operate, taking steps towards proper legitimacy, I don't think they'd ever get the respect they seem to demand from gamers in the know.

freddiebamboo · Post by **freddiebamboo** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:36 pm

Icarus wrote:
Rockwaldo wrote:So what are you suggesting? That Twin Galaxies go out and actively SEEK these other records? That isnt feasible surely, they have to rely on what is submitted to them, and if they arent submitted - irrespective of validity, then they can't be included.
Why not?

MARP, Gamest, Arcadia and probably some other sources hold and list verified scores. Surely it isn't difficult to fire off a few e-mails and get communicating? Possibly find some way of affiliating yourself with other known record listings?

Exactly. This Walter chap (who does actively seek records) has been around for a while and must have noticed that Japan have a few handy players. Why no communication with arcadia? Why is the TG site still saying its a world wide resource?

At the very least have the TG site available in japanese - you would think this is one of the first things you would do if you ran a site that is far better suited to the Japanese gamer than US.

I think TG is happy just having english speakers battling to break their pathetically low records - it's kind of like an even more closed-minded version of here

Rockwaldo · Post by **Rockwaldo** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:49 pm

freddiebamboo wrote:
Icarus wrote:
Rockwaldo wrote:So what are you suggesting? That Twin Galaxies go out and actively SEEK these other records? That isnt feasible surely, they have to rely on what is submitted to them, and if they arent submitted - irrespective of validity, then they can't be included.
Why not?

MARP, Gamest, Arcadia and probably some other sources hold and list verified scores. Surely it isn't difficult to fire off a few e-mails and get communicating? Possibly find some way of affiliating yourself with other known record listings?
Exactly. This Walter chap (who does actively seek records) has been around for a while and must have noticed that Japan have a few handy players. Why no communication with arcadia? Why is the TG site still saying its a world wide resource?

At the very least have the TG site available in japanese - you would think this is one of the first things you would do if you ran a site that is far better suited to the Japanese gamer than US.

I think TG is happy just having english speakers battling to break their pathetically low records - it's kind of like an even more closed-minded version of here

What's to say that TG havent tried to contact Arcadia though and they have refused? The Japanese gaming scene almost revel in the fact that they arent that involved with Westerners in my experience, so i see no reason why they would want to get involved in TG. So what should TG do? close down?

Also, i dont see TG being so anally definitive as to say that they are the all seeing highest scores in the world, bar none, organisation. If the higher scores want to prove how great they are (and that includes people here), then why not get off their arse and submit a score? Surely that shows TG up a lot more than sitting on the outskirts bitching at anyone who happens to quite like what TG are doing?

And to say again, i DO NOT claim that TG are the best in the world and that there are absolutely no better at any point in my blog, in fact all i speak of in terms of my playing of the games is getting a score in their book, not necessarily the best in the world.

Post by **Icarus** » Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:00 pm

Rockwaldo wrote:What's to say that TG havent tried to contact Arcadia though and they have refused?

And how do you know that TG have asked Arcadia about it?
You seem to be in with the organisers of TG.
Why don't you ask them about it.

Rockwaldo wrote:The Japanese gaming scene almost revel in the fact that they arent that involved with Westerners in my experience, so i see no reason why they would want to get involved in TG.

Say what? Where the heck did you hear that?

The Japanese gaming scene don't involve themselves with Westerners primarily because of the language barrier. The few times we've had communication with Japanese players (one of which was Ibara Kuro record holder RAM at click-stick's forum), they've been courteous, polite and extremely helpful.

Rockwaldo wrote:Also, i dont see TG being so anally definitive as to say that they are the all seeing highest scores in the world, bar none, organisation. If the higher scores want to prove how great they are (and that includes people here), then why not get off their arse and submit a score? Surely that shows TG up a lot more than sitting on the outskirts bitching at anyone who happens to quite like what TG are doing?

It's that kind of attitude that most dislike about TG in general. "We're the official world records listing, and until someone says otherwise, we are right." You've seemed quite decent so far. Don't perpetuate that kind of arrogant attitude. There are a lot less courteous and tolerant people around here besides me.

The reason why I myself haven't bothered to submit my numerous scores to TG is because 1) I don't rate them, 2) I don't like the attitude and 3) back when I was actively chasing scores, TG's archaic verification methods left a sour taste. They might have changed point 3 now, but it's always the first impression that sticks.