World’s Greatest Shmup Player Tournament?!

[DEL]

I'm all for the Comp and wish everyone the Best.
But
goatdan wrote;

We could name it the "Midwest" or the "Wisconsin" shmup championship, but then people in the media wouldn't care as much about it, and when they asked where the world ones were held, there wouldn't be an answer. Thus, no news about the tournament before or afterwards.

"but then people in the media wouldn't care as much about it" - hmm...
Yes but then calling it World's is tantamount to a lie. In fact, let's be straight, it is a lie.
NTSC-J was right in saying that the Japanese/HK/Chinese/Korean players hold 95% of the real shoot'em up WRs. In fact its more like 99%.

I'm pretty sure I'd take exception to the media interviewing the winners of the event as "World Champions 2007".

To conveniently ignore the Eastern Players and arbitrarily call this Comp World's is just not truthful.

Sorry to harp on about it , but its a recurring Twin Galaxies theme that should be addressed.

Have fun at the Comp! I don't wish to be a spoilsport

[Ceph]

I held the Official Shmup World Championship in my living room yesterday. Only I participated, so I won and am now the Official Shmup World Champion. Kneel down before me!

[Super Laydock]

Come on, stop bitching about the title and just embrace the idea.

It´s not like those "world´s strongest man" type competitions really feature the strongest man on earth anyway.
Here too it´s just to sound more interesting and get some attention from press etc. And they way this is organized it could indeed be the only tournament of it´s kind in the world (well I know of no others anyway), and with multiple "disciplines" it should be interesting to see whose most well rounded there.

Even if the real top players aren´t there now, who says they won´t be attracted by the name alone in one of the coming year´s (hopefully) events.
Not saying that they will come, but they might be something like " world´s greatest my ass! I´ll come and show them who´s daddy".
And why don´t some of the top players on the board that aren´t too far off get over there and claim the title if they think it´s "up for grabs" without the Asian players anyway? This could merely be the stepping stone to something bigger in the future, where it could grow to become what it now only claims to be (World Cyber Games had to start somewhere too, right?).

I think that people should be more open to this kind of initiative instead of slashing it down (just for the title, or lack of Clover-TAC, et all). if I´d live anywhere within traveling distance I would definitely love to attend.
I´d only make a fool out of myself by participating, but I´d surely watch with interest. And it´s always nice to meet people sharing the same interest, right!?

As it is now I hope that enough people support this initiative and it will become a success. That way it hopefully gets a chance to grow bigger in the coming years and live up to it´s name someday.



@goatdan: maybe contacting and inviting some worldrecord holders, or luring them with sponsor payed trips to play might help to give the event more attraction in a smaller timeframe than otherwise be possible. Maybe next year?

[sven666]

You're right, such an epic name will pull in the hordes of shooter players that would otherwise stay at home if this was merely a "national" tournament.

nope, but it might attract some average joes that think they might be getting to see something extraordinary.

helps the cashflow a little.

anyways, hung up on the name or not i wish them the best of luck with the event, ive held such events here in sweden and not a single actual shmups player showed up, it was essentially the "DDR/SF3S players shmups showdown extravaganza" those kids travel miles to compete atleast..

im kinda curious what games will be displayed too, on my last event i had ; Progear, Ketsui, Dodonpachi DOJ black label, ESPgaluda 2, raiden DX, Dimahoo, Varth and the finals (head to head) were in Gigawing.. hard to beat?

[goatdan]

NTSC-J was right in saying that the Japanese/HK/Chinese/Korean players hold 95% of the real shoot'em up WRs. In fact its more like 99%.

See, here is the one thing that I think may be overlooked...

The style of this tournament, World Records don't matter. Consistency does. The winner of the tournament is going to have to display their ability across lots of different games, and be the top player after all of that. If one person absolutely rules at one game, but gets third and fourth places in the others, the person who ends up beating them more consistently will be the winner.

This isn't about setting world records in any way. In fact, I sincerely doubt that any records will be set. In the pinball competitions, even though the player will play games for a long time and get crazy scores, they don't touch the 'official' world records in tournaments like this pretty much ever.

This tournament is to crown the best in a series of shmups, across the whole genre. Not to see who can set the most records. With how the games are scored (if you beat it on one credit, you get a bonus for each life you have in points, but the game is over), this will lend itself even less to actually setting records.

As for sponsoring people to come over, I'd love to do that, however we are completely tapped for money right now. In the past, we have had people from Asia, Europe and all across North America attend the show, so who knows? Maybe someone will decide to make it this year, and if it is successful, who knows what will happen in the future?

Finally, I've already PMed a couple people about the other places that hold world records for shmups, and trying to get them recognized by Twin Galaxies. If anyone would actually like to tell me a little more about how these competitions are held, or where the records are, by all means -- please either PM me or email me, and I will see what I can do. I'm sure that Twin Galaxies isn't opposed to including records from everywhere, but they may just need to know exactly how they are done so they can be listed. Has anyone actually contacted them about this before? If no one wants them to start carrying these records for whatever reason, that is fine -- but then I find it strange that such a complaint is leveled at them. If you do, I'm happy to take up the charge for everyone.

[j^aws]

Twin Galaxies has no credibility in my eyes. I started a thread there to clarify some Stargate rules, because there were some inconsistencies:

http://www.twingalaxies.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8989

...and after several queries and PM's, they never bothered to clarify NOR have the courtesy to inform me that it's still being looked into. MEH.

That being said; best of luck with the venture...

[NTSC-J]

NTSC-J was right in saying that the Japanese/HK/Chinese/Korean players hold 95% of the real shoot'em up WRs. In fact its more like 99%.

See, here is the one thing that I think may be overlooked...

The style of this tournament, World Records don't matter. Consistency does. The winner of the tournament is going to have to display their ability across lots of different games, and be the top player after all of that. If one person absolutely rules at one game, but gets third and fourth places in the others, the person who ends up beating them more consistently will be the winner.

This isn't about setting world records in any way. In fact, I sincerely doubt that any records will be set. In the pinball competitions, even though the player will play games for a long time and get crazy scores, they don't touch the 'official' world records in tournaments like this pretty much ever.

This tournament is to crown the best in a series of shmups, across the whole genre. Not to see who can set the most records. With how the games are scored (if you beat it on one credit, you get a bonus for each life you have in points, but the game is over), this will lend itself even less to actually setting records.

The thing is, the majority of these world class players are incredibly consistent. It's not like they can't clear stage one 9 out of 10 times then bust out a world record right after that. These guys crank out AAA runs on demand. How else do you think they produce these DVDs? The best players I saw at the arcade would nail these games time and time again, and while they didn't beat their score each time, they did phenomenal with nearly every try. Sure, they're not masters of every game out there, but I highly doubt that a guy who can shatter one shooter would blow at the next. Keep in mind that lots of these guys hold records for not only various shooters, but for games in different genres.

[Davey]

Come on, stop bitching about the title and just embrace the idea.

Yes. The name is lame and wrong, everybody knows this. The World Series only has teams from two countries, Milwaukee's Best is anything but, and there are a million guys with World's Greatest Dad t-shirts. Anybody who really cares is just being anal.

Don't like it? Ignore it, just like people do with Twin Galaxies. If it's a good tournament, maybe it'll grow and attract better players. If people see it as a joke, it will fade away into obscurity and irrelevance. That would be a much bigger insult to the tournament than writing an angry letter to the editor.

Besides, I doubt the winner will seriously consider themselves the World's Greatest Shmup Player. Plus, I'm betting most top tier Japanese players either haven't heard of this tournament, or they couldn't care less about it.

I'm wondering about the game list as well. Being that this is the Midwest Gaming Classic, I'm not sure if I'd even enjoy watching this, let alone participating. Watching some dude kick ass at Defender or TwinBee doesn't sound all that exciting, but that's just my opinion.

[PFG 9000]

The name of this tournament is an inane thing to bitch about, especially if you aren't going to be there. It has no impact on your life whatsoever, so get over it.

Let's suppose for a second that Joe Shmupper is in fact the very best shmupper in the galaxy, and Minnesota too. He can 1Lc every shmup ever made while blindfolded and singing Stairway to Heaven backwards. If Jane Shmuck down the street holds a little shmup tourney and doesn't invite Joe, does it have any impact on Joe's life? If he thinks so, he needs to get over himself.

[Rob]

The name of this tournament is an inane thing to bitch about,

You guys can't read, it's more like tough love. I mean, who really wants it to be the World's Greatest Dad t-shirt or Milwaukee's Best of shooting game competitions? Makes it seem ridiculous when they want it to be taken seriously.

[goatdan]

I'm wondering about the game list as well. Being that this is the Midwest Gaming Classic, I'm not sure if I'd even enjoy watching this, let alone participating. Watching some dude kick ass at Defender or TwinBee doesn't sound all that exciting, but that's just my opinion.

Games will be played across all consoles from all ages. That is part of the whole idea -- the player needs to be consistent across the genre, not just in one series or on one system. It should be very interesting because of that. But just because the word "classic" is in our title doesn't mean we are "old." We have some old things, but not many.

One clarification that I do want to make is that this year at least, we are only using consoles. I have a couple sweet arcade shmups myself, but no cabs to put them in right now, and I won't risk relying on someone else to bring them. Expect some cabs to be worked into the mix in the future, if everything works out this year.

[NTSC-J]

The name of this tournament is an inane thing to bitch about,

You guys can't read, it's more like tough love. I mean, who really wants it to be the World's Greatest Dad t-shirt or Milwaukee's Best of shooting game competitions? Makes it seem ridiculous when they want it to be taken seriously.

Glad to see Rob gets it. I like shooters and would like to see a big event like this done right. That's all.

[goatdan]

Glad to see Rob gets it. I like shooters and would like to see a big event like this done right. That's all.

We're working on getting there, I promise. We've all got to start somewhere, and this is where I hope we can start it

[Davey]

Makes it seem ridiculous when they want it to be taken seriously.

My (mis?)understanding is that this is supposed to be a small, not-too-serious sort of thing, sort of like a trial run to see how the concept works out. In that light, criticizing the name seems kind of inane. If this is actually intended to officially crown the World's Greatest Shmup Player (did the Fox marketing team came up with that name?), ragging on the name makes more sense.

And If I had the skills, I wouldn't mind being the Milwaukee's Best of shmup champions. But I'm not exactly an ambitious guy.

[PFG 9000]

The name of this tournament is an inane thing to bitch about,

You guys can't read, it's more like tough love. I mean, who really wants it to be the World's Greatest Dad t-shirt or Milwaukee's Best of shooting game competitions? Makes it seem ridiculous when they want it to be taken seriously.

I think I can read quite fine, thank you. My point is that this tournament has no impact on your life if you won't be attending. Nobody who wins this tournament will actually believe they're the best shmupper in the world, and even if they did it won't impact you in the slightest.

[Rob]

this tournament has no impact on your life

People tend to discuss things for the sake of discussing things, especially if those things intersect with their interests. I'll be right here if you have any more q's regarding human contact.

[icepick]

My (mis?)understanding is that this is supposed to be a small, not-too-serious sort of thing, sort of like a trial run to see how the concept works out.

I listened to the Team Fremont Live March 17, 2007 show (featuring the interview with Mr Loosen), and it seems that the weight behind the title is attributed to Twin Galaxies and the GOAT Store recognizing the title (until the next year's tournament, or for two years following the final tournament, as listed in their rules). I don't know anything about Twin Galaxies, but that sounds fine to me.

For what it is, I think that it's a great idea and it does add a big something to the convention for me. I'd already been wanting to go one of these years, but now, I too wish that I could go for this inaugural World's Greatest Shmup Player competition, as the design of the tournament does seem interesting. I'm not sure if I would enter, but I could imagine it. It could certainly be something to note the tournament participants and winners.

About the concept of this tournament; When thinking of a game genre where skills in one of the games could easily transfer to others, racing is the first that comes to mind; although perhaps it's not as much of a "game" genre as it is a realistic game representation of something in real-life, unless you're talking about something like Rally-X. Any arguments against the racing genre having too many little details between games and features (drifting, realism/arcade, and others) could go the same for shooting or platform or fighting.

Certainly, someone who has played many different releases and styles of shooting games will be able to fare quite well in a tournament like this, and of course that's likely what the producers have in mind. My idea is that a player well-versed in all ages of video games would fare nearly as well, and in fact might be one and the same as the capable shooting game player... until scoring is taken into account. The basic gameplay concepts (movement, shooting, dodging, memorization) might be portable between games and styles, but someone with scoring practice in a particular game would tip the scales. I think that the tournament is a great idea, and I thank the parties involved for setting it up... but I do also feel that scoring systems add a wrinkle to the otherwise simple concept that is being described.

Of course, the tournament will still achieve its goal to an extent, if players indeed must place well in a variety of games to succeed. Although I would have fun entering and enjoying the experience (and likely playing games that I haven't before), my guess is that someone with familiarity of the games played will show up, clean house, and assimilate the prizes into their collective.

I'm glad that the tournament is taking place, and I feel that the MGC could basically be the E3 of the future unfolding before us, if I understand the shows properly. Lots of vendors, publishers, new game announcements by current independent developers (much of whom could very well be the beginnings of the next big developers), with a focus on "good gaming qualities." Back to basics in exploration of creating another branch on the tree of gaming life. I'm probably reading too much into things, but I like it!

(By the way; The link to rules in the Twin Galaxies press release links to the rules for the MPC instead of the WGSPT.)

[goatdan]

Interesting comments. A few of my own

About the concept of this tournament; When thinking of a game genre where skills in one of the games could easily transfer to others, racing is the first that comes to mind; although perhaps it's not as much of a "game" genre as it is a realistic game representation of something in real-life, unless you're talking about something like Rally-X. Any arguments against the racing genre having too many little details between games and features (drifting, realism/arcade, and others) could go the same for shooting or platform or fighting.

I understand what you're saying, however I would argue against racing game as the differences are much more major -- for instance, the difference between a realistic driving game, an arcade driving game and an old-school driving game are REALLY great, and don't translate so well. Three games off the top of my head would be Night Driver (2600), Rush 2049 (Dreamcast) and Forza Motorsport (Xbox). Of those, I absolutely SUCK at Night Driver and Forza, and I am really rather good at Rush. But, even though I am good at Rush, I SUCK at the entire Crusin' series. Sega SCUD racer I'm relatively decent at however.

With Shmups, regardless of what era I get a game for, I know that I'll do *okay* at it, since I know my average reflexes. I can only think of a couple games that are shmups that I picked up and was absolutely horrible at. Everything else, I seemed to 'get' right away.

That's the concept, at least

Certainly, someone who has played many different releases and styles of shooting games will be able to fare quite well in a tournament like this, and of course that's likely what the producers have in mind. My idea is that a player well-versed in all ages of video games would fare nearly as well, and in fact might be one and the same as the capable shooting game player... until scoring is taken into account. The basic gameplay concepts (movement, shooting, dodging, memorization) might be portable between games and styles, but someone with scoring practice in a particular game would tip the scales. I think that the tournament is a great idea, and I thank the parties involved for setting it up... but I do also feel that scoring systems add a wrinkle to the otherwise simple concept that is being described.

Yes, and that is why each round is playing in more than one game. It comes from the pinball side of things. They figured that if one person knew a game, it would be unfair of them to have that advantage. And they couldn't just pick up five or more different games that the players had never seen before, because companies didn't have games that were done but not released. So, the concept is to play across different games in different genres.

In the pinball, how this works is that you might have one person that absolutely rules at a game because they own it -- For instance, I own a Jurassic Park, and I think it is the one game that I could probably be semi-competitive with against some of the pinball players. But, I have to play at least two other games each round, and chances are very good I won't know them all.

I'm glad that the tournament is taking place, and I feel that the MGC could basically be the E3 of the future unfolding before us, if I understand the shows properly. Lots of vendors, publishers, new game announcements by current independent developers (much of whom could very well be the beginnings of the next big developers), with a focus on "good gaming qualities." Back to basics in exploration of creating another branch on the tree of gaming life. I'm probably reading too much into things, but I like it!

Thanks That is definitely what we are trying to do, although at the heart of our show is that we are a show made by gamers, for gamers. We won't become E3 ever because it was an event by the industry for the media. We want to ensure that each person there has a great time, no matter what they want to do.

(By the way; The link to rules in the Twin Galaxies press release links to the rules for the MPC instead of the WGSPT.)

D'oh! I thought this had been fixed. Thanks for the heads-up!

[Nemo]

The Town's Greatest Shmup Player, 2004

BS, that guy in igloo #7A is better than you.

[Rob]

I said town, not village/seal hunting camp. This is the civilized world!

And I had my one year, dammit.

[Ceph]

What are you still talking about? The Official Shmup World Championship is over anyway...

I held the Official Shmup World Championship in my living room yesterday. Only I participated, so I won and am now the Official Shmup World Champion. Kneel down before me!

[Sonic R]

I was shooter champion in the 1988 shoot 'em up finals in Canton, Michigan! Was crowned MVP as well.

But my career took a turn for the worst when I got involved in drugs and alcohol. A few run ins with the law also hurt me. I had lost my edge and desire to win and thus retired from the league in 1994. There is now some speculation that I may have used some enhancing products (Mountain Dew) while I was competing. I still shout BS! My scores were legit and I was clean in 1988 I hit the dew hard in 1990 and was thus disqualified from the NWC in 1990.

I am now just play for recreation.

[Davey]

Alright, so besides PFG 9000, is anybody else going to this thing? I'm still toying with the idea.

I'm wondering what kind of talent will be there, given than A) this is the first time this is being done, and B) it's in the midwest. Hopefully some really good players will be there to build the tournament's credibility, otherwise it will be hard for it to grow as big as it sounds like they want it to be in future years.

[Nemo]

I said town, not village/seal hunting camp. This is the civilized world!

And I had my one year, dammit.

True that, 2004 was definitely your apex, I doubt you could beat Amber McAnally at this point.

[sven666]

My scores were legit and I was clean in 1988 I hit the dew hard in 1990 and was thus disqualified from the NWC in 1990.

I am now just play for recreation.

propsecuted to the full extent of the jam!

[EOJ]

Holding a "world's greatest shmup player tournament" in the midwest is like holding a "world's greatest FPS player tournament" in Ethiopia.

And only console shmups? Bleh. Who cares? All the Japanese WRs are done on the arcade PCBs, because all the great shmups were released in the arcades.

[Davey]

And only console shmups? Bleh. Who cares?

I'm hoping it's mostly ports of arcade shmups and not a bunch of console-only shmups. Midwest or not, that would suck.

I'll probably skip this year and see how it goes, then maybe consider going next year based on what happens. I'm not going to win either way, but I certainly wouldn't want to go that far to get my ass handed to me in a bunch of unfamiliar games that I don't even like.

[Sonic R]

And only console shmups? Bleh. Who cares?

I care.

I am enjoy console shoot them ups very much thanks.

Shit on me some more.

I'll probably skip this year and see how it goes, then maybe consider going next year based on what happens. I'm not going to win either way, but I certainly wouldn't want to go that far to get my ass handed to me in a bunch of unfamiliar games that I don't even like.

Maybe I can join you in attendance next year. MWGC is something my wife and I have attendeded in the past years. Days and times are most hectic right now at me home.

[system11]

Why can't you just call it 'America's Greatest Shmup Player Tournament'?

QFT, whole post was spot on.

[postman]

Heading out tomorrow, see anyone there who decides to attend!