A new players introduction.

[Atamosk]

(in advance:1. Sorry for my poor english as i live in holland
2. Sorry for asking this if this was already answered in the glossary section)

So before barging in with the questions i'l start with a small introduction.
I'm Gydo from the netherlands and my usual gaming handle is Atamosk. I am 19 years old and just recently got active with shmups.

I have been browsing this forum for almost a year now after rediscovering the shmup genre with the purchase of gradius V. being a newbie i am however left with some question.

Only owning a PAL PS2 ive tryed out any shmup i could get my hands on... having that said i only own 5 titles
However with these 5 titles i have been capable of testing what my likes and dislikes are.

And with that info i was hoping you guys could point me in the right direction as to what to games(developers) to avoid or purchase.

Well here goes (PS2 PAL):
Gradius V:
Absolutely fell in love with this game, excellent learning curve and superb leveldesign. Not depending on one certain weapon/ship for each encounter is a big plus

1945 1&2:
As much as i love gradius this game i hate, depending on bombs to survive encounters is not fun in my book. (or do i suck and can this game be passed without the use of bombs?)

R-type final:
Well its diverent, instead of laying the emphasis on reflexis it wants you to memorise levels... not a bad game, just not my fafourite, still an enjoyable experience overall

Psyvariar:
love it, despite its rediculously short levels i greatly enjoy the frantic dodging and bullet grazing

Castle skigigami (shikigami no shiro) II:
Fun game, tough it seems to ly the emphasis on sheer firepower rather than skillfull dodging (tough with its grazing/scoring system its hard to do one without the other) (just got the game yesterday)

Summarisation:
Dodging > Firepower
reflexes > memorisation
Cant stand games that are not 1C able without the use of bombs

Yeah sorry for this long-ish post.

[Aquas]

Play U.N. Squadron, man.

[cigsthecat]

1945 1&2:
(or do i suck and can this game be passed without the use of bombs?)

Yes.

http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=355

[Atamosk]

Play U.N. Squadron, man.

Tough like i stated before only own a PS2 so recomending a snes exclusive is ever so helpful i shall decline on that generous offer.

1945 1&2:
(or do i suck and can this game be passed without the use of bombs?)

Yes.

http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=355

Saying something is possible than posting a world record made by a single man after countless atempts a good argument does not make.
I was revering to possible for the average player with say 2 weeks worth of practice.
Thanks for the nice site-link tough has some awesome footage on it.

[Super Laydock]

First of all: welcome Gydo, nice to see another fellow Dutchman loving this genre.

And with that info i was hoping you guys could point me in the right direction as to what to games(developers) to avoid or purchase.

Cant stand games that are not 1C able without the use of bombs

With those things in mind and the fact that you hate Strikes 1945 I & II, I advice you to definitely stear clear of the Gunbird 1&2 double pack (like the Strikers 1945 games, also by Psikyo) which is also available for PAL ps2. Gunbird 2 is extremely difficult to complete WITH bombs already, let alone without them.

There isn't that much choice as for shmups for the PAL PS2 though,
so maybe you wanna try Raiden III or Homura. GigaWing generations is also available (for a mere 15 euro) but wasn't received very well by most people (haven't tried it myself though).

1945 1&2:
(or do i suck and can this game be passed without the use of bombs?)

Yes.

http://www.super-play.co.uk/index.php?superplay=355

Saying something is possible than posting a world record made by a single man after countless atempts a good argument does not make.
I was revering to possible for the average player with say 2 weeks worth of practice.

Well you asked if the game can be passed without the use of bombs, and it can. I can't do it either, but maybe we should acknowledge that're just not good enough.
Besides, there are A LOT of shmups which require well over 2 weeks to get to grips with, let alone 1cc. Performing well, often means practicing over and over again for a lot of them (and not even then you're guarenteed to be able to 1cc it once). See it as an ultimate achievement, which requires a lot of hard work and time. You'll be proud whenever you 1cc a game.


PS. could you please edit the topic title to better let it reflect the topic content? Thanks.

[Atamosk]

Ah yes i agree that the average shooter takes alot longer to 1CC. (Took 2 months for gradius V but darn did that feel good )

I just purchased Stag XII and steel dragon from ebay after reading some reviews so am awaiting those titles in the mail - (couldent find any gameplay footage of XIIstag so i hope it wont be a disapointment.)

Did a little research on that psikyo and it indeed like you said seems like they stick to the bomb tactics as core gameplay element, not my fancy so shall avoid those

I did get pretty curious about Cave tough, or manic shooters in general.

Are there any sub-genres within shmups?
Psikyo and cave both seem to rely on totally diverent gameplay yet there is no way to keep them apart?

[Michaelm]

There isn't that much choice as for shmups for the PAL PS2 though,
so maybe you wanna try Raiden III or Homura. GigaWing generations is also available (for a mere 15 euro) but wasn't received very well by most people (haven't tried it myself though).

As he's restricting himself because of the bomb thing I think Gigawing Generations will be a good choice even if the port is a bad one.

And welcome to the community
I refuse to answer the poll though as the word 'club' has a negative meaning to me

Oh, and you should get a Dreamcast.

[CHI]

welcome.....

post your scores on the scoreboards.....
which i havent been doing much.....

[Atamosk]

Thank you veryone

As he's restricting himself because of the bomb thing I think Gigawing Generations will be a good choice even if the port is a bad one.

Dont mind the presence of them at all, just that the gameplay should not be balanced around using them. (gunbird?)

[cigsthecat]

The gameplay in Psikyo games is not built around using bombs. Just because you can't dodge something in two weeks of play doesn't make it impossible.

I think you'd really like Raizing games!

[Krooze L-Roy]

Welcome.

I strongly recommend Einhander if you liked Gradius V. Other than that... maybe Silpheed, which is kinda basic but fun to play through every now and then. But definately Einhander.

[iatneH]

I voted for shoo, just because we got so many "welcome"s already.

Of course I don't mean it, welcome to the club! :)

[Atamosk]

Ah time flys been busy around the house alot so dident get to visit here as much as i would have liked.

So i have expanded my library some more over the past weeks, some were just plain fun in designs others grotesque, heres what i collected so far.

Games i have on chronological order:
R-type Final
Gradius V
Psyvariar: complete edition
Castle shikigami II
Strikers 1945 I&II
XII Stag
Steel dragon EX

Planning to get:
Gunbird I&II

Games i plan on not getting.
Sol divide
Gigawing generations
Dragon Blaze (<- Worth getting next to gunbird and strikers?)

Are there any PAL PS2 games i seem to have missed?
(think) I remember a link from this site that contained all titles for each console and region however i seem to have lost it. could anyone point me in the right direction?

Also i have to apologise judging strikers 1945 so fast, after spending some time with it i realise its a very solid shooter tough the (relative) large hitbox had me frustrated for some time.

Thanks for bearing with my attempts at english

[Rob]

Dragon Blaze[/b] (<- Worth getting next to gunbird and strikers?)

Definitely.

[Atamosk]

So were this all the PS2 shmups worth owning apart from jap exclusives? Or am i still missing a few on this list?

Already own
R-type Final
Gradius V
Psyvariar: complete edition
Castle shikigami II
Strikers 1945 I&II
XII Stag
Steel dragon EX

Planning to get:
Gunbird I&II

Games i plan on not getting.
Sol divide
Gigawing generations
Dragon Blaze (<- Worth getting next to gunbird and strikers?)

[Diabollokus]

You Forgot Homura available in PAL for PS2, Going to buy that along with Dragon Blaze myself, Dragon blaze looks amazing.

[j^aws]

So were this all the PS2 shmups worth owning apart from jap exclusives? Or am i still missing a few on this list?

Already own
R-type Final
Gradius V
Psyvariar: complete edition
Castle shikigami II
Strikers 1945 I&II
XII Stag
Steel dragon EX

Planning to get:
Gunbird I&II

Games i plan on not getting.
Sol divide
Gigawing generations
Dragon Blaze (<- Worth getting next to gunbird and strikers?)

Add:

- Midway Arcade Treasures Vol 1: Stargate (aka Defender 2), Robotron: 2084.

- Capcom Classics Collection Vol 1.: Section Z, Forgotten Worlds, Gun.Smoke.

- Capcom Classics Collection Vol 2.: Side Arms.

- Taito Legends 2 : G-Darius.

I've just noted 'some' shmups in those collections. There are more...

[SPACE HARRIER]

So were this all the PS2 shmups worth owning apart from jap exclusives? Or am i still missing a few on this list?

Already own
R-type Final
Gradius V
Psyvariar: complete edition
Castle shikigami II
Strikers 1945 I&II
XII Stag
Steel dragon EX

Planning to get:
Gunbird I&II

Games i plan on not getting.
Sol divide
Gigawing generations
Dragon Blaze (<- Worth getting next to gunbird and strikers?)

Add:

- Midway Arcade Treasures Vol 1: Stargate (aka Defender 2), Robotron: 2084.

- Capcom Classics Collection Vol 1.: Section Z, Forgotten Worlds, Gun.Smoke.

- Capcom Classics Collection Vol 2.: Side Arms.

- Taito Legends 2 : G-Darius.

I've just noted 'some' shmups in those collections. There are more...

Add-

Gradius III & IV (one of the first releases at PS2 launch,somehow hard to find)
Silpheed-the lost planet (more of a shooter on rails,not bad)

Oh jeah,welcome to the club

TNT,

[j^aws]

...
Gradius III & IV (one of the first releases at PS2 launch,somehow hard to find)
...

Nice. I actually own this. Gonna dig it up and give Gradius III a spin...

[poieo]

Dragon Blaze is NOT worth getting, nor are the GunBirds. I'm sick of explaining how cheap Psikyo is in their games, so play them in MAME first if you really want to see what they're about.

Add:

- Capcom Classics Collection Vol 1.: Section Z, Forgotten Worlds, Gun.Smoke.

- Capcom Classics Collection Vol 2.: Side Arms.

- Taito Legends 2 : G-Darius.

I've just noted 'some' shmups in those collections. There are more...

I like how out of all the games in those compilations, you could only name the crappiest ones. No accounting for taste here, is there?

God help you if you ever try to play Gun.Smoke -- Hibachi from DDP is less vicious than the first level of that game. CCC1 looks a little light, with only the 1943 games, Vulgus, and Exed Exes being stand-out shooters. And Exed Exes is so just because of how fuckin' weird it is; between the story and the music, it's like playing someone's bizarre afternoon dream.

CCC2 is a little more interesting. Eco Fighters is pretty nifty with its 360 degree aiming mechanic, and Varth is an excellent game that doesn't get much mention. Either way, both compilations are only really worth it if you can pick them up cheap, or if you're digging on a few of the other non-shooter games they contain.

And G-Darius is lame. However, Taito Legends 2 also has Gun Frontier on it, which is excellent. It also has Darius Gaiden, which is another shooter that's mediocre but has a nice off-kilter mood. And Elevator Action 2 is nice, though it isn't a shooter. Again, pick it up if it's cheap enough, and keep in mind that it doesn't have options for auto-fire; as good as Gun Frontier is, i'd hate to play it without that.

[j^aws]

...
I like how out of all the games in those compilations, you could only name the crappiest ones. No accounting for taste here, is there?
...

Taste is subjective. Perhaps next time you can be more mature in accepting a different opinion...

[Rob]

Forgotten Worlds and Gun.Smoke are the best of Capcom collection. Easily.

No accounting for taste here, is there?

You got that right.

Dragon Blaze is NOT worth getting, nor are the GunBirds. I'm sick of explaining how cheap Psikyo is in their games

And G-Darius is lame.

It also has Darius Gaiden, which is another shooter that's mediocre

[poieo]

I keep forgetting that this places heavy empahsis on the retard definition of subjectivity, whereby things can be good or bad not by reasoned argument, but just if you say it is. By that count, you are all unique little flowers, special in your own way. I guess if i follow your logic, Eight Forces is an excellent game!

Whatever, nimrods. Idiots like you are why it's so fucking hard to actually get a handle on what's worth playing and what isn't. Notice you just say "Nuh-uh!" like some petulant child while offering no explanation for why you think the contrary is true. I can be perfectly accepting of an opinion; the catch is that you actually have to grow the fuck up and realize that you need to back yours up with something.

Gun.Smoke is bullshit. Not only is the firing setup a pain (having to repeatedly press two buttons at the same time to fire forward) but the enemy placement is relentless and also has no problems potshotting you at every possible opportunity. In fact, the AI actively jockeys for a position in which they can shoot you in the back. And they do it CONSTANTLY. Add that to fast bullets, limited range for your own bullets, environmental obstacles, and wildly overpowered bosses, and you have one of the most blatantly unfair games ever created.

Section Z is just flat out broken. Even if you get past how buggy it is, you're still left with a game that forces you to continue as soon as you reach the second stage lasers. Every stage after that, you're guaranteed to die from some new "gotcha!" attack from something or other.

None of this is breaking news, kiddies. Capcom's early arcade games are notorious for being hideously unbalanced.

Forgotten Worlds is a pain in the ass to play without the original arcade controls, and is a fine example of "Wow, let's make the player so fucking huge it's impossible to not get hit". Eco Figthers manages to incorporate its 360 degree aiming a bit better, and also doesn't force you to dodge stuff while being the same dimensions as a Pong paddle.

Side Arms is a fine example of Gradius' trademark "breeze through stuff powered up, then lose all your lives within 5 seconds". It allows you to respawn instantly, unlike Gradius, but the invulnerability time is nearly nonexistent and it doesn't clear the screen of enemies. So, you die once, enemies flow onto the screen unrestricted, and the game is completely unrecoverable.

G. Darius' big thing is the capture ball system, which is cumbersome and not all that useful. Darius Gaiden is a basic shot+bomb hori that only gets marks for its fantasticly surreal feel -- strip out Zuntata's music, the weird boss designs, and the Engrish intro/ending and you have nothing. Even with the mood, it's mostly notable for being one of the few Darius games where it's actually possible to powerup.

Gun Frontier, on the other hand, has solid gameplay to go with its unique "space Western" style. You have a decent shot at powerups, and you only lose one level of powerup when you die. It has checkpoints, but because of that powerup mechanic, it's not as brutal as other checkpoint games. It's largely an aimed-shot game, but the hitbox is fairly comfortable in size, so wing grazes don't kill you. It's hectic, but it actually allows you to dodge stuff. It's like a proto-manic shooter.

Vulgus is the one early Capcom game that isn't cheap as fuck. The enemies still come non stop, but there's a certain simplicity to the game. The enemies aren't complicated, but they always head straight for you at just the right speed to keep you moving. The ship sprite is also pretty small and puck-like, so you're not left with this cumbersome giant ship trying to clumsily move everywhere. The difficulty also works out in a strange way in that you can pick up the game and have things moving right from the start the same as it would be a few levels in. It's a great pick-up-and-play game.

Varth has the bomb mechanic that allows you to regenerate bombs you've used, and has shields you can also use in tough spots. It's got useful weapons, secrets all over the place for scoring, and seems to WANT you to be able to get out of tight situations. It's easily comparable to something like Raiden, but still holds its own in unique ways.

[j^aws]

I keep forgetting that this places heavy empahsis on the retard definition of subjectivity, whereby things can be good or bad not by reasoned argument, but just if you say it is. By that count, you are all unique little flowers, special in your own way. I guess if i follow your logic, Eight Forces is an excellent game!

Whatever, nimrods. Idiots like you are why it's so fucking hard to actually get a handle on what's worth playing and what isn't. Notice you just say "Nuh-uh!" like some petulant child while offering no explanation for why you think the contrary is true. I can be perfectly accepting of an opinion; the catch is that you actually have to grow the fuck up and realize that you need to back yours up with something.

Gun.Smoke is bullshit. Not only is the firing setup a pain (having to repeatedly press two buttons at the same time to fire forward) but the enemy placement is relentless and also has no problems potshotting you at every possible opportunity. In fact, the AI actively jockeys for a position in which they can shoot you in the back. And they do it CONSTANTLY. Add that to fast bullets, limited range for your own bullets, environmental obstacles, and wildly overpowered bosses, and you have one of the most blatantly unfair games ever created.

Section Z is just flat out broken. Even if you get past how buggy it is, you're still left with a game that forces you to continue as soon as you reach the second stage lasers. Every stage after that, you're guaranteed to die from some new "gotcha!" attack from something or other.

None of this is breaking news, kiddies. Capcom's early arcade games are notorious for being hideously unbalanced.

Forgotten Worlds is a pain in the ass to play without the original arcade controls, and is a fine example of "Wow, let's make the player so fucking huge it's impossible to not get hit". Eco Figthers manages to incorporate its 360 degree aiming a bit better, and also doesn't force you to dodge stuff while being the same dimensions as a Pong paddle.

Side Arms is a fine example of Gradius' trademark "breeze through stuff powered up, then lose all your lives within 5 seconds". It allows you to respawn instantly, unlike Gradius, but the invulnerability time is nearly nonexistent and it doesn't clear the screen of enemies. So, you die once, enemies flow onto the screen unrestricted, and the game is completely unrecoverable.

G. Darius' big thing is the capture ball system, which is cumbersome and not all that useful. Darius Gaiden is a basic shot+bomb hori that only gets marks for its fantasticly surreal feel -- strip out Zuntata's music, the weird boss designs, and the Engrish intro/ending and you have nothing. Even with the mood, it's mostly notable for being one of the few Darius games where it's actually possible to powerup.

Gun Frontier, on the other hand, has solid gameplay to go with its unique "space Western" style. You have a decent shot at powerups, and you only lose one level of powerup when you die. It has checkpoints, but because of that powerup mechanic, it's not as brutal as other checkpoint games. It's largely an aimed-shot game, but the hitbox is fairly comfortable in size, so wing grazes don't kill you. It's hectic, but it actually allows you to dodge stuff. It's like a proto-manic shooter.

Vulgus is the one early Capcom game that isn't cheap as fuck. The enemies still come non stop, but there's a certain simplicity to the game. The enemies aren't complicated, but they always head straight for you at just the right speed to keep you moving. The ship sprite is also pretty small and puck-like, so you're not left with this cumbersome giant ship trying to clumsily move everywhere. The difficulty also works out in a strange way in that you can pick up the game and have things moving right from the start the same as it would be a few levels in. It's a great pick-up-and-play game.

Varth has the bomb mechanic that allows you to regenerate bombs you've used, and has shields you can also use in tough spots. It's got useful weapons, secrets all over the place for scoring, and seems to WANT you to be able to get out of tight situations. It's easily comparable to something like Raiden, but still holds its own in unique ways.

Just in case time forgot:

MOD EDIT: Attention poieo. Saying "screw you" to the site mods and telling "the forum and the shmup community" to "go fuck itself" is not acceptable. Your post has been deleted, and consider this your formal warning. If in future you still can't get your viewpoint across without hurling insults then you will likely face an account ban... -TF

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=19186#19186

[Rob]

whereby things can be good or bad not by reasoned argument, but just if you say it is.

Damn right.

offering no explanation for why you think the contrary is true.

I said easily, what more do you want? I'm not nearly bored enough to argue for games that make the board's top 50.

Gun.Smoke is awesome.

[poieo]

Yep, that's just about the level of care that can be expected of recommendations from this rancid community.

[Rob]

High five!

[Ghegs]

Yep, that's just about the level of care that can be expected of recommendations from this rancid community.

If you don't like it, door's to your left. Otherwise, learn some manners.

Also, Section Z and Side Arms are awesome. Your arguments against them suggests you tried them once, got your ass kicked and feelings hurt and decided they are crap. Both are completely manageable.

[poieo]

Right. So i'm guessing you have the one special version of Section Z that isn't buggy and doesn't have a ton of cheapshot deaths. And Sidearms, contrary to what's immediately verifiable by playing it, doesn't have an invulnerbility period that's too short and enemies that flood the screen in the meantime.

But i can see your point about my lack of manners. Have you tried not being a fucking moron? Let's see if there's any causality there.

[Ghegs]

Right. So i'm guessing you have the one special version of Section Z that isn't buggy and doesn't have a ton of cheapshot deaths. And Sidearms, contrary to what's immediately verifiable by playing it, doesn't have an invulnerbility period that's too short and enemies that flood the screen in the meantime.

Yes indeed, I do have the ultra-rare Special Version Section Z that gets easier the better you know the game. I've made it to section X on a single credit and the first time I did that I went through stages 4 and (partly) 5 completely with twitch-dodging as I hadn't seen those stages before. So no, there aren't a lot of cheap deaths. The pinball part is probably the only annoying bit, but even that has a safe route to it.

And of course Side Arms has a short invulnerability period, that wasn't under scrutiny. This doesn't, however, make the game unfair. Recovery is indeed hard, but still possible. If you can't do it, that's your problem, not the game's.

But i can see your point about my lack of manners. Have you tried not being a fucking moron? Let's see if there's any causality there.

That's two strikes. Three and you're out.