Skill

[DEL]

Twiddle wrote;

Also, Japanese are, on average, really terrible at video games, while most non-gamers in the US could get past at least the first level or two of Pac-Man.

Yes true.
But,
I'm not concerned with Jap or US average players. I'm perplexed at the Jap/HK & Korean Masters. What I mean to say is, these Masters are at a level that 99.9%+ of Westerners cannot (or do not) reach.
This is the grey area...

---------------------------------------------

RotateMe wrote;

I discovered something else while playing dragon blaze for some hours. After i got totally annoyed by the chaos having to use 3 buttons and 3 kinds of shooting and bombs I started a run where I didn't press any of the buttons, not shooting anything. Of course this would lower my rank but it was unbelievable more easy to get through the stages and studying the boss pattern was much more effective when I didn't have to release this dragon on him all the time. After some time I just killed the boss, done the same thing with the next form and thus beat the 2nd boss. I screw up at stage 3 but I think with not shooting anything it was better then I expected.

^This is more about practice and getting your brain used to using 3 buttons correctly on this game. For instance, Mushihimesama requires you to use 5 or 6 buttons correctly for high score play. At first, this appears messy & difficult, but you soon become accustomed to it until it becomes 2nd nature after a while.
Of course, you do have a point with the 'keep it simple' method too .

[RotateMe]

It might have helped so much because my biggest problem is to concentrate on dodging rather than watching things explode. And even worse, even with this technique I don't really get to memorize where to shoot at (maybe BECAUSE I watch it, having to do it "blind" - just watching your ship and the area around - would improve your technique because you do more trial and error)

Ugh I didn't know it's neccessary to use all these buttons in Mushihimesama to score-play the game... I'll have to try to get used to it at least it's the game I'm currently trying to 1cc (a mamoth task for a noob like me but it's a fun game though).

On topic: Do you think it's neccassery to stick to one game in order to improve your skills? I'm playing like 4 games at a time... when I get frustrated on one of them I just pick up one of ther others. Should I keep on playing even though I'm this short before throwing the damn controller in my way-too-small-TV?

[Edge]

@Rotate Me

I don't know how the best way is too practise and I ain't a super player.
Nontheless I'd like to tell you how I started to play manic shmups. At first I choose one game and stay with it for awhile. I did not practise it or read strategy stuff. I just tryed to survive and learn the game, get a feeling for it. But too keep me motivated on a ambitious level, I made myself a goal everytime I started the game. My goal was simply beat my highscore, no matter with how many points. This way I had a good learning curve. First only focusing on getting as far as possible with one credit. But since I had the exact goal to break my old score I started to intuitively look for ways to improve my scores in prior stages. And after a while I started to try and understand how the hell the scoring really works.
This method was a lot of fun to me and I kept improving step by step. If I get tired of one game I may start another, but I'd reccomend to stay with a game for say a month (if you don't play it excessively). Esspecially when you are not that experienced.

That's at least how I have played them and learned to appreciate them. But I guess that depend a bit on how you like to improve, I like the "learning by doing" way. And I like little goals to archieve each day (break my own score).


@topic:
I never really bothered where my skill limit is. I still just play and try to improve myself step by step.
OMGZ; IT'S ONLY VEDEOGAMZZ!!!11!

[RotateMe]

Another question regarding skill is how long did it take to master (1cc, get great highscore) your first fav-shmup, how long does it take now to master it? (of course approx.)

[CIT]

Twiddle wrote;

Also, Japanese are, on average, really terrible at video games, while most non-gamers in the US could get past at least the first level or two of Pac-Man.

Yes true.
But,
I'm not concerned with Jap or US average players. I'm perplexed at the Jap/HK & Korean Masters. What I mean to say is, these Masters are at a level that 99.9%+ of Westerners cannot (or do not) reach.
This is the grey area....

Thats true with arcade games, but as you know there is no significant arcade scene in the West anymore.

How do Western players match up in games like Counter Strike, Halo or Starcraft? I think you will find that they easily match, if not exceed, Asian players.

[sikraiken]

I'm not concerned with Jap or US average players. I'm perplexed at the Jap/HK & Korean Masters. What I mean to say is, these Masters are at a level that 99.9%+ of Westerners cannot (or do not) reach.
This is the grey area...

What's there to be perplexed about? They are more dedicated, have more experience (thanks to their dedication), and have a better focus than your "average" player.

[Dave_K.]

Thought for the night.

I read this on another forum;

Also i remember reading something about the way westeners and far east asians process what they see. I can't really remember exactly what was in the article but it went along lines of if you draw a dot on a peice of paper. A westerner would focus on the black dot, while japanese would focus on the whiteness around the dot. Maybe the Japanese are seeing things we aren't...

& that was on a pure Fighter forum, not an STG forum.

^If the above is true, then it would have interesting implications on things like 'manics'.

What the people on the fighter forum are referring to is the same study quoted in the "Motion Induced Blindness" thread:
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?t=8791

Here was the reference:
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7882

[LUNardei]

I was going to post the same stuff. A better contribution than a "there's nothing to explain"

[Damocles]

How do Western players match up in games like Counter Strike, Halo or Starcraft? I think you will find that they easily match, if not exceed, Asian players.

It's not even a fair fight. There is no comparison. Then again, there are buttloads of westerners playing those games.

[DEL]

Dave_K wrote;

What the people on the fighter forum are referring to is the same study quoted in the "Motion Induced Blindness" thread:

Oh I see.
Taken from that article;

Chinese and American people see the world differently – literally. While Americans focus on the central objects of photographs, Chinese individuals pay more attention to the image as a whole, according to psychologists at the University of Michigan, in Ann Arbor, US.

Hmm, does this help with predicting the way bullet curtains will unfold? - I guess the Oriental way would!

SiKrAiKeN wrote;

What's there to be perplexed about? They are more dedicated, have more experience (thanks to their dedication), and have a better focus than your "average" player.

^Well, perhaps it IS nothing more than 'more dedication' as you suggest.
The dedication is and has always been there in Japan, there's no doubt of that. plus in terms of numbers of 'dedicated experienced' shoot'em up Players in the whole of the West, which only numbers in the hundreds or less. In comparison to this total western number, the total dedicated experienced Oriental players which must be errrm...huge, then i suppose we represent a very small sample of the World total.
Considering this, I suppose it makes sense. All genetic differences aside.

[Icarus]

Taken from that article;

Chinese and American people see the world differently – literally. While Americans focus on the central objects of photographs, Chinese individuals pay more attention to the image as a whole, according to psychologists at the University of Michigan, in Ann Arbor, US.

Hmm, does this help with predicting the way bullet curtains will unfold? - I guess the Oriental way would!

That doesn't quite work in my case. I am of Oriental descent (British born) and most bullet-hell games twist my melon. ^_-

^Well, perhaps it IS nothing more than 'more dedication' as you suggest.
The dedication is and has always been there in Japan, there's no doubt of that. plus in terms of numbers of 'dedicated experienced' shoot'em up Players in the whole of the West, which only numbers in the hundreds or less. In comparison to this total western number, the total dedicated experienced Oriental players which must be errrm...huge, then i suppose we represent a very small sample of the World total.
Considering this, I suppose it makes sense. All genetic differences aside.

Dedication is and always has been a major part in excellence at anything. I don't doubt that there might be some other inherent factors that play into it, such as slightly faster reactive ability and so on, but no one is born a great shmupper, work and time must always be invested before some kind of improvement is noticed.

[Kiken]

How do Western players match up in games like Counter Strike, Halo or Starcraft? I think you will find that they easily match, if not exceed, Asian players.

It's not even a fair fight. There is no comparison. Then again, there are buttloads of westerners playing those games.

Aren't the world's top Star Craft players Korean?

[Damocles]

How do Western players match up in games like Counter Strike, Halo or Starcraft? I think you will find that they easily match, if not exceed, Asian players.

It's not even a fair fight. There is no comparison. Then again, there are buttloads of westerners playing those games.

Aren't the world's top Star Craft players Korean?

Hey! How'd Starcraft get in there?

*shrug*

[Randorama]

I cannot believe this thread is still going on and people are still arguing the same bullshit. But I see that the usual cycle of stupidity has hit again (where are my data though...?)




At this point I DEMAND another thread on rank! *PMs BMagnet to set up a fake flame with all kind of utter stupidity*

[LUNardei]

I cannot believe this thread is still going on and people are still arguing the same bullshit. But I see that the usual cycle of stupidity has hit again (where are my data though...?)

I wonder why people still listen this guy.

[Gungriffon Geona]

I cannot believe this thread is still going on and people are still arguing the same bullshit. But I see that the usual cycle of stupidity has hit again (where are my data though...?)

I wonder why people still listen this guy.

Because he's Randrama, that's why. if we all stop paying him attention maybe he'll just go away. (or learn to add some actual content to a topic, either way.)

Skill in a game is essentially like talent in anything: it can't grow without proper practice. as it stands, I have probably neglected playing truly hard shmups most of my life and I'm just now learning to play these games the way they're intended.

[DEL]

Icarus wrote;

That doesn't quite work in my case. I am of Oriental descent (British born) and most bullet-hell games twist my melon. ^_-

The study speaks of research on Chinese-Born and American-born graduates and the parental influences on them, shaping the way they look at things. Because you are British-born Oriental descent, you may have been raised in a slightly different way and the psychologists would not be able to group you neatly in their 'Harmony Vs Goals' study.
Anyway, don't worry its probably all down to the individual player at the end of the day; his practice, dedication and individual talent.

About 15 years ago I remember someone telling me that there were Japanese Otakus for each game. For instance, there would be Mr Salamander, Mr Flying Shark etc. Individual guys known for dedicating all their time to just one game and being the absolute Otaku Master at it.

This was 15 years ago.

So I guess the same ethos may hold true today. Some guy in the arcade who jealously defends his Mastery of his main game.
I came across current evidence of this when a Japanese Fighter Team including Daigo & BAS came to London's Trocader arcade for a Tournament about 2 years ago. One of the Japanese Team was the undisputed 'Guy' master on 3rd Strike. He never played with any other character, no matter what, & he was truly Impressive!!

Pride is a HUGE Japanese trait , is it not
Pride and Honour.

Rando wrote;

I cannot believe this thread is still going on and people are still arguing the same bullshit. But I see that the usual cycle of stupidity has hit again (where are my data though...?)

I'm responsible.
Because I still seek answers.


Regs, DEL

[Ganelon]

I came across current evidence of this when a Japanese Fighter Team including Daigo & BAS came to London's Trocader arcade for a Tournament about 2 years ago. One of the Japanese Team was the undisputed 'Guy' master on 3rd Strike. He never played with any other character, no matter what, & he was truly Impressive!!

LOL, I totally agree, but Kiyo is the undisputed Guy master in SFA3.

[Randorama]

quote="LUNardei on unskilled trolling mode"]

Light buffet [/quote]

Can you try hard?

I'm responsible.
Because I still seek answers.


Regs, DEL

The answer is inside you...


but it's wrong.

But seriously, if you want an answer which is not intarweb talking for the uneducated masses (say, the two posting below me), it's better you read something on the topic by experts. A forum isn't the right place to look at.

[Gungriffon Geona]

Randrama, get over yourself. the easiest way to an answer is to discuss it with peers who understand the basic subject. getting an expert is out of the question, because you obviously aren't one, and probably no one here is. all we can do is share info to get a conclusion.

[Twiddle]

the answer already was there (japanese players play one game for years) but nobody but a few people (most of whom don't post in this topic) accepted it

[LUNardei]

Yeah. Like me for example, right? Too bad I'm playing the same game since about 6 months and will keep on playing for a long time
And anyway, is reality really so simple to understand? Wonderful!

[Randorama]

Randrama, get over yourself.

Better luck next time, kid. Suggestion: study first, speak later. It might have been an incredible result for you to get an high school diploma, but it doesn't really prove a lot. Actually, your posts so far prove that you are a pretty unskilled troll. Care to try a tad harder? Else, i'm skipping your posts, you're not really worthy any commitment

[Gungriffon Geona]

Randrama, get over yourself.

Better luck next time, kid. Suggestion: study first, speak later. It might have been an incredible result for you to get an high school diploma, but it doesn't really prove a lot. Actually, your posts so far prove that you are a pretty unskilled troll. Care to try a tad harder? Else, i'm skipping your posts, you're not really worthy any commitment

To what do I really owe to you? you come into a topic JUST to start an argument, then never back up anything you say, then say in reply to anyone who says anything against you "yeah, whatever. I'm right by delault because of no reason whatsoever, but I'll pretend I have a reason and tell you it's not worth talking to you about it anymore. oh, and you're stupid" Pardon me, but that holds quite well to point towards your stupidity overall.

As for what anyone says, I think that the topic does hold into some latent ability to judge speed and distance to a good enough extent to use as an advantage.
As to the answer, that still really doesn't explain the drastic difference in Batrider scores between west and east. In all honesty perseverence can't explain that when it was at the start of the game's life that such high scores were achieved. fluke? talent? something about the game we don't know? our guess is as good as any.
Even then, the sheer lengths they go to beat become masters of a specific game does withstand most of the time, but there's obviously another factor we don't know about, atleast at current.

[Icarus]

As to the answer, that still really doesn't explain the drastic difference in Batrider scores between west and east. In all honesty perseverence can't explain that when it was at the start of the game's life that such high scores were achieved. fluke? talent? something about the game we don't know? our guess is as good as any.

Considering that we in the West still know very little about the game as a whole plays more into the difference in scores than any kind of 'latent ability' does.

[Gungriffon Geona]

As to the answer, that still really doesn't explain the drastic difference in Batrider scores between west and east. In all honesty perseverence can't explain that when it was at the start of the game's life that such high scores were achieved. fluke? talent? something about the game we don't know? our guess is as good as any.

Considering that we in the West still know very little about the game as a whole plays more into the difference in scores than any kind of 'latent ability' does.

True enough. the game has more hidden oddities than I've seen in most games. (three Garegga bosses, bosses from other Raizing games, hidden stages, and probably alot of more interesting score combos that we haven't found.) But I like it alot for all it's hidden stuff. It definitely has more replay value than most other games in the genre because of it.

[Icarus]

True enough. the game has more hidden oddities than I've seen in most games. (three Garegga bosses, bosses from other Raizing games, hidden stages, and probably alot of more interesting score combos that we haven't found.) But I like it alot for all it's hidden stuff. It definitely has more replay value than most other games in the genre because of it.

We know everything about the secrets in the game, they've been well covered. The main issue is the development of the perfect strategy. In Japan, Batrider was well covered in arcade gaming magazines (I think Gamest did a feature covering several issues) so players will have had access to basic strategy from the get go. Add that to tips and strategies being shared by arcade players on a daily basis, and the perfect strategy for a 29mil+ score would have been formulated in a relatively quick space of time.

Not only do the gaming press in Japan cover games very early in their life cycle, but they also keep track of records players make in an official ranking for each game. So there is also the element of competition too.

Now compare that to us. We know virtually nothing of the perfect strategy. We have information on probably only 40% of the scoring tricks in the game. Very few players are actually playing the game to any serious competitive level (disregarding Batrider Week in STGT), with even less actually contributing to strategy discussion.

See the problem?

Now apply that to every other game in the genre, and we can see one of the main barriers to development of Western players: lack of information, and a lack of competitiveness.

"Lack of information" definitely plays a major part in stunting the scoring growth of players when games with more complex scoring systems are involved - note the vast difference between Batrider scores, or Dodonpachi Daioujou, or Raiden Fighters Jet - but isn't as prominent in simpler games, or games based on old-school style heavy memorisation (note how close players can get to the R-Type WR).

"Lack of competition" is just as important a factor. With most Japanese players, they keep playing the game and competing until they feel they can no longer improve their scores, and for a select few players, that will mean achieving the WR. With us, we just play until we are bored.

[Mills]

On the issue of skill, can anyone, or has anyone attempted to 1CC a shump game using 2 joysticks to control 2 ships/fighters simultaneously? Yesterday i viewed Raiden3 replay on YouTube.com, where some japanese player 1CC the game. this impressive replay (though im attempting to 1cc Raiden3 at my london arcade for london meet 4 in 2007) reminded me of my 1cc simultaneous plays of Strikers1945 (stage 1-5 using P38 & P51) RaidenDx (1cc Alpha Mission, reached stage 1-4 Bravo Mission, and stage 1-3 Charlie Mission). I dont think anyone in the world has attempted to 1cc any Cave titles although it would take a good female shumper to have any chance of successfully 1cc a cave shump. the female mind is better at multi-tasking the male mind.

[DEL]

Mills - A lot of players have done this 2 sticks to control 2 players simultaneously thing. On Mush and a number of other titles.
Personally, this type of thing doesn't interest me at all. I regard it as a show-off party trick. But that's just me .

[zlk]

One thing I just found out for myself is playing on a proper cabinet makes a huge difference in score. When I played Ibara using a supergun connected to a tv, the boss attacks seemed unfair and difficult to dodge. On a cab, the screen is so large that these attacks now seem very reasonable and not so difficult to get past. If you aren't playing on a proper cabinet, you are at a disadvantage in my opinion.