Shooters with unfair bosses

[Twiddle]

you act like I haven't been playing this genre since I was 7. I like it, I just what it's devolved into: abstract art attacking abstract art and MAYBE actual ships are involved. Or something even remotely interesting to look at being tossed aside to say "hay lewk! we good 4 tourny lol!"

GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPHICS

I have fun playing a game over and over again just see how long I can go without dying. Score means nothing to me. I restart most games if I screw up, but in the case of Garegga I wanted to see what the fuss was about, in which I didn't get why it's considered so great.

Survival-based shooting games died in 1991. Every arcade shooting game with any success since then has some sort of scoring gimmick and, in most cases is, designed around it.

This "animated storybook" thing doesn't even figure into it either. If I wanted that entirely I would've hated CRS 68K with a passion. your argument in that regard is void.

chorensha, by reports, is pretty simple once you learn what to do with suicide bullets (which i still haven't, but due to a lack of time and an abundance of games i would play over that, I would probably not learn anytime soon).

Look, I like different games for different reasons. quit being a baby just because I don't like the games that you like.

there's a bit of irony here but i can't quite place it

[Icarus]

you act like I haven't been playing this genre since I was 7.

And how old are you now?

I have fun playing a game over and over again just see how long I can go without dying. Score means nothing to me. I restart most games if I screw up, but in the case of Garegga I wanted to see what the fuss was about, in which I didn't get why it's considered so great.

Particular games open themselves up to players and become great when a player makes the effort to understand the game's systems and learn how to play a game properly. The fact that you pick one of the genre's most complex games, shove four credits into it at once then pass it off without even getting to know the game properly makes me LOL.

Garegga and the rest are liked around here because of the everlasting depth, the amount of involvement it gives a player, and the vast replayability from both mastery of the many ships and, get this, playing for a higher score. Wow, fancy that.

But then again, I guess gameplay depth is wasted on someone who only plays "for fun".

Although I laughed at this comment...

I have fun playing a game over and over again just see how long I can go without dying.

...especially considering that in Raizing games, the best way to play is by dying repeatedly.

[Rob]

I guess gameplay depth is wasted on someone who only plays "for fun".

Oh damn. Burnt to a crisp.

Icarus = unfair boss.

[Twiddle]

Not only in shooting game tournaments.

...especially considering that in Raizing games, the best way to play is by dying repeatedly.

But how can you die repeatedly and still be on a single credit....

...wait...

[Icarus]

Oh damn. Burnt to a crisp.
Icarus = unfair boss.

Not only in shooting game tournaments.

You're both fired. Take your pink slip and get out of my sight.



LOL. ^_-

[landshark]

[Gungriffon Geona]

you act like I haven't been playing this genre since I was 7.

And how old are you now?

19 last I checked.

I have fun playing a game over and over again just see how long I can go without dying. Score means nothing to me. I restart most games if I screw up, but in the case of Garegga I wanted to see what the fuss was about, in which I didn't get why it's considered so great.

Particular games open themselves up to players and become great when a player makes the effort to understand the game's systems and learn how to play a game properly. The fact that you pick one of the genre's most complex games, shove four credits into it at once then pass it off without even getting to know the game properly makes me LOL.

Garegga and the rest are liked around here because of the everlasting depth, the amount of involvement it gives a player, and the vast replayability from both mastery of the many ships and, get this, playing for a higher score. Wow, fancy that.

For the sake of all of you whining I went back and played it again. 2 credits for the whole thing. (though I still don't get the point behind it. I kinda get the rank system, but I never noticed a true difference in the difficulty.) You wanna know what kills me most about this game? half the time you can't see the bullets coming at you because they blend too well with the background. and of course the debris can sometimes be mistaken for shots.
And again, the Black Hearts weren't all that hard once you get passed the twisting pattern they have. The final boss is rediculously easy, since after playing CRS's final boss through so many times I was quite used to the rediculous movements it has. (there is a major similarity there aside from CRS's boss has smoothed movements and an actually challenging pattern.)

But then again, I guess gameplay depth is wasted on someone who only plays "for fun".

It honestly depends on what gimmick is used. in this case I didn't really find it interesting or remotely visible.

Although I laughed at this comment...

I have fun playing a game over and over again just see how long I can go without dying.

...especially considering that in Raizing games, the best way to play is by dying repeatedly.

I don't get the dying alot thing either. I never played a game where the influence was to actually get killed alot. I watched a Bakraid superplay and I still don't get what the hell was going on. it even seemed like a different version of the game than the arcade one.

Again, I still don't really like this game much.

[Twiddle]

For the sake of all of you whining I went back and played it again. 2 credits for the whole thing. (though I still don't get the point behind it. I kinda get the rank system, but I never noticed a true difference in the difficulty.) You wanna know what kills me most about this game? half the time you can't see the bullets coming at you because they blend too well with the background. and of course the debris can sometimes be mistaken for shots.
And again, the Black Hearts weren't all that hard once you get passed the twisting pattern they have. The final boss is rediculously easy, since after playing CRS's final boss through so many times I was quite used to the rediculous movements it has. (there is a major similarity there aside from CRS's boss has smoothed movements and an actually challenging pattern.)

Your rank is severely lowered after a continue, making later parts of the game easier. Also, rank is more or less irrelevant on the No Extend setting. In the default Japan/every 1m, rank has a real apparent effect after stage two. Less frequent extends = less severe rank system. No extends = rank system only gets two or three times as bad, at most.

The hard to see bullets are a design decision that forces you to pay much more attention to what's around you. Most don't agree, but I'd take that over Cave's misleading bullet hitboxes and ChoRenSha's "four loops!!!" gimmick.

I don't get the dying alot thing either. I never played a game where the influence was to actually get killed alot. I watched a Bakraid superplay and I still don't get what the hell was going on. it even seemed like a different version of the game than the arcade one.

How did it look like a different version of the game? There are ingame input combinations that allow you to see the chain timer (which are not cheats, by the way) and change the color of the bullets. The Bakraid replay is also of Advanced Course.

[Icarus]

Your rank is severely lowered after a continue, making later parts of the game easier. Also, rank is more or less irrelevant on the No Extend setting. In the default Japan/every 1m, rank has a real apparent effect after stage two. Less frequent extends = less severe rank system. No extends = rank system only gets two or three times as bad, at most.

The hard to see bullets are a design decision that forces you to pay much more attention to what's around you. Most don't agree, but I'd take that over Cave's misleading bullet hitboxes and ChoRenSha's "four loops!!!" gimmick.

He was probably playing on the default master version of the Garegga ROM (Denmark/China - no Extends, severely mangled rank system, and I think one stage less).

As for invisible bullets, a common complaint.

Argh, 6.20am. Will reply properly after sleep.

[jp]

I love it when people try to argue on behalf of credit feeding. Its like a child that was raised by wolves being brought into society and demanding to know why it must "cook" the food, since it enjoyed it just fine raw and bleeding.


At any rate, unfair bosses... hmmm... I nominate... hmmm... I can't really think of any shmup bosses I found flat out unfair. The final boss of Hyper Duel is a bitch... but... unfair? The levels in Metal Black are hell but the bosses are kinda pushovers.


So... I dunno.

[Rob]

At any rate, unfair bosses... hmmm... I nominate... hmmm... I can't really think of any shmup bosses I found flat out unfair.

Speaking of which, I'll elaborate on my choice (GB2 st 6).

That particular pattern, as far as I know, is only doable by memorization. Can anyone really discern the separate patterns at that speed, and pick out the miniscule openings as they develop? It's blazing fast. It's the Psikyo memorization complaint at its absolute worst. You either bomb or know how to dodge it through trial and error. There's no getting by on accident, "twitch dodging," etc.

And that is why I love GB2.

[Gungriffon Geona]

For the sake of all of you whining I went back and played it again. 2 credits for the whole thing. (though I still don't get the point behind it. I kinda get the rank system, but I never noticed a true difference in the difficulty.) You wanna know what kills me most about this game? half the time you can't see the bullets coming at you because they blend too well with the background. and of course the debris can sometimes be mistaken for shots.
And again, the Black Hearts weren't all that hard once you get passed the twisting pattern they have. The final boss is rediculously easy, since after playing CRS's final boss through so many times I was quite used to the rediculous movements it has. (there is a major similarity there aside from CRS's boss has smoothed movements and an actually challenging pattern.)

Your rank is severely lowered after a continue, making later parts of the game easier. Also, rank is more or less irrelevant on the No Extend setting. In the default Japan/every 1m, rank has a real apparent effect after stage two. Less frequent extends = less severe rank system. No extends = rank system only gets two or three times as bad, at most.

well atleast someone's trying to explain this. Why didn't someone do so in the firstplace?

The hard to see bullets are a design decision that forces you to pay much more attention to what's around you. Most don't agree, but I'd take that over Cave's misleading bullet hitboxes and ChoRenSha's "four loops!!!" gimmick.

I find it quite annoying, as I'm continuously attempting to dodge debris and missing bullets coming at me. Add to the fact I'm quite color blind makes this fact even worse.
And to be fair, CRS only has 2 loops. there is a hidden stage, but it's an endless one that never actually ends. (it has one hidden boss that is of the harder bosses in the game, as well as 2 heavily revamped bosses with strange patterns.) After that, the only thing I see about it is it's fun simply destroying everything you can. (though it is quite fun to tinker with the ship speed and bullet speed, where it sometimes becomes freakishly scary curtains of bullets.)

I don't get the dying alot thing either. I never played a game where the influence was to actually get killed alot. I watched a Bakraid superplay and I still don't get what the hell was going on. it even seemed like a different version of the game than the arcade one.

How did it look like a different version of the game? There are ingame input combinations that allow you to see the chain timer (which are not cheaats, by the way) and change the color of the bullets.

That would be the difference. that and on the naval yard stage's boss, where I haven't seen how it's runways are destroyable. (even though in the vid it's very clear that's what happens.)

[Rob]

well atleast someone's trying to explain this. Why didn't someone do so in the firstplace?

ffs

[captain ahar]

For the sake of all of you whining I went back and played it again. 2 credits for the whole thing. (though I still don't get the point behind it. I kinda get the rank system, but I never noticed a true difference in the difficulty.) You wanna know what kills me most about this game? half the time you can't see the bullets coming at you because they blend too well with the background. and of course the debris can sometimes be mistaken for shots.
And again, the Black Hearts weren't all that hard once you get passed the twisting pattern they have. The final boss is rediculously easy, since after playing CRS's final boss through so many times I was quite used to the rediculous movements it has. (there is a major similarity there aside from CRS's boss has smoothed movements and an actually challenging pattern.)

Your rank is severely lowered after a continue, making later parts of the game easier. Also, rank is more or less irrelevant on the No Extend setting. In the default Japan/every 1m, rank has a real apparent effect after stage two. Less frequent extends = less severe rank system. No extends = rank system only gets two or three times as bad, at most.

well atleast someone's trying to explain this. Why didn't someone do so in the firstplace?

as is the case with most things. when you already know it seems so very obvious.

[Twiddle]

well atleast someone's trying to explain this. Why didn't someone do so in the firstplace?

Rob didn't explain the differences between settings, but we still have tried to explain that rank severely dips after a continue, making a no-extends game with neutered rank even easier.

I find it quite annoying, as I'm continuously attempting to dodge debris and missing bullets coming at me. Add to the fact I'm quite color blind makes this fact even worse.
And to be fair, CRS only has 2 loops. there is a hidden stage, but it's an endless one that never actually ends. (it has one hidden boss that is of the harder bosses in the game, as well as 2 heavily revamped bosses with strange patterns.) After that, the only thing I see about it is it's fun simply destroying everything you can. (though it is quite fun to tinker with the ship speed and bullet speed, where it sometimes becomes freakishly scary curtains of bullets.)

Which version of the game are you playing? The newest ones have four loops, each after the first (if you have put all defaults in the settings) giving you a scarier set of suicide bullets.

That would be the difference. that and on the naval yard stage's boss, where I haven't seen how it's runways are destroyable. (even though in the vid it's very clear that's what happens.)

There's a ton of secret bonuses for doing specific things in Bakraid, such as bombing certain areas or destroying all parts of an enemy or structure. That is only one of many of those secrets.

About dying repeatedly: It pauses your chain timer so you can throw a bomb right after dying (preferably at a medium-large target) to keep the chain going.

[Gungriffon Geona]

well atleast someone's trying to explain this. Why didn't someone do so in the firstplace?

Rob didn't explain the differences between settings, but we still have tried to explain that rank severely dips after a continue, making a no-extends game with neutered rank even easier.

I'm actually using the Usa/Japan/Aisa version of the game. (though you were right about it having extends turned off. I noticed a drastic change in the difficulty when I turned it on.
Though the Black Hearts are still fairly easy. (I blame having fought the thing over and over in Batrider on why it's so easy.) though MK2 did get a little more annoying.
And yes, the final boss was still a chump.

I find it quite annoying, as I'm continuously attempting to dodge debris and missing bullets coming at me. Add to the fact I'm quite color blind makes this fact even worse.
And to be fair, CRS only has 2 loops. there is a hidden stage, but it's an endless one that never actually ends. (it has one hidden boss that is of the harder bosses in the game, as well as 2 heavily revamped bosses with strange patterns.) After that, the only thing I see about it is it's fun simply destroying everything you can. (though it is quite fun to tinker with the ship speed and bullet speed, where it sometimes becomes freakishly scary curtains of bullets.)

Which version of the game are you playing? The newest ones have four loops, each after the first (if you have put all defaults in the settings) giving you a scarier set of suicide bullets.

I looked in the second option screen for this. seems like I have a version where the other 2 loops are in, but they weren't implemented in the main game. huh, peculiar. I could have sworn I had the latest version.

That would be the difference. that and on the naval yard stage's boss, where I haven't seen how it's runways are destroyable. (even though in the vid it's very clear that's what happens.)

There's a ton of secret bonuses for doing specific things in Bakraid, such as bombing certain areas or destroying all parts of an enemy or structure. That is only one of many of those secrets.

About dying repeatedly: It pauses your chain timer so you can throw a bomb right after dying (preferably at a medium-large target) to keep the chain going.[/quote]
figures. I started noticing alot of bomb-only destructables going back to it for a moment.

[Twiddle]

well atleast someone's trying to explain this. Why didn't someone do so in the firstplace?

Rob didn't explain the differences between settings, but we still have tried to explain that rank severely dips after a continue, making a no-extends game with neutered rank even easier.

I'm actually using the Usa/Japan/Aisa version of the game. (though you were right about it having extends turned off. I noticed a drastic change in the difficulty when I turned it on.
Though the Black Hearts are still fairly easy. (I blame having fought the thing over and over in Batrider on why it's so easy.) though MK2 did get a little more annoying.
And yes, the final boss was still a chump.

Try doing this in one credit, please.*

And yes, the final boss can be easy, but only if rank was kept low, which is much harder than it seems on a single credit.

*This isn't even about bragging rights. This is how you can properly appreciate most of these games, figuring out how to beat them with limited resources.

[Frederik]

Surely this speaks for itself (Mushihimesama ultra mode):

Nasty game design.

I always thought that this is a very lazy last boss - simply crapping the whole screen with a nearly unavoidable mess. Likewisem, Hibachi just throws bullets in long streams really really fast. Ketsuis DOOM on the other hand, judging from replays, is so hard because the patterns are so irritating and hard to follow. These patterns split your brain in half. I have no problems with last bosses being really hard (heck, I rarely meet them), but they should at least be interesting.

[freddiebamboo]

It sounds wussy, but the 3rd boss in DOJ is a right nuisance when you've pushed up the rank.

Dragon Blaze stage 6 boss is pretty evil as well. And the stage 2 boss on Mushi's Ultra...

[Kaiser]

Lace in ibara
Psyvariar's revision gluon(I've seen movies from that fight)
Psyvariar 2's Eta boss(This one is SOB when it comes to scoring)
Gradius V stage 5 boss(I hate this guy)
Strikers 1945 II last boss final form
and i found 6th boss in battle bakraid somewhat unfair because thanks to him i can't 1cc normal

[LUNardei]

I've heard there's a way to influence the last pattern so that one of the bullet spamming fireball streams is fired off to the side of the screen, reducing the amount of bullets to dodge. I haven't seen a replay around where this happens, however. Maybe the resident Mushi players might have a bit more info. (TWE? GaijinPunch?)

Yes, you need at least 4/5 lifes to do that
You can choose between that strat or the no miss one (like TGA-RET in the DVD). The no-miss path requires basically to stay in front of him ALL THE TIME. In the outtakes of the dvd you can see TGA-RET no-miss every pattern of true aki, but not in the same run.
Actually I've already paid to see an ULTRA no miss. The run in the dvd was supposed to be a no miss but TGA failed...

And no, it's not nasty game design, definitely.

[Rob]

And no, it's not nasty game design, definitely.

It certainly is xtreme and helps sell replay DVDs.

[LUNardei]

It certainly is xtreme and helps sell replay DVDs.

Yes...
But the point is: some players demand "xtreme" games. Cave did an "extreme" game. That boss is an ehm, "xtreme" challenge but it's not impossible. It's exagerated, sadistic and maybe unfair, but that's what the players wanted, and it's possible to do. Give a "normal" true last boss to japanese players (ops, sorry, I said japanese!) and they will beat it in some months and forget the game. Give them DOOM, for example, and they'll play for years.

[Atomic]

It certainly is xtreme and helps sell replay DVDs.

Yes...
But the point is: some players demand "xtreme" games. Cave did an "extreme" game. That boss is an ehm, "xtreme" challenge but it's not impossible. It's exagerated, sadistic and maybe unfair, but that's what the players wanted, and it's possible to do. Give a "normal" true last boss to japanese players (ops, sorry, I said japanese!) and they will beat it in some months and forget the game. Give them DOOM, for example, and they'll play for years.

please dont ever say "xtreme" again.. it takes me back to the time when everything was so "XTREME.." and makes me cringe.

[Rob]

Give a "normal" true last boss

Yeah, everything that doesn't sandwich a player in a 3x3 pixel cell with oddly proportioned bullets is normal.

BTW, Willy Wonka already did that pattern.

[Icarus]

Shikigami 3 - stage 4-2, 5-1 and 5-2 bosses. Ugh. -_-;;
That shit is possible... if I have nine lives and a hundred bombs. -_-;;

[Neon]

It certainly is xtreme and helps sell replay DVDs.

Yes...
But the point is: some players demand "xtreme" games. Cave did an "extreme" game. That boss is an ehm, "xtreme" challenge but it's not impossible. It's exagerated, sadistic and maybe unfair, but that's what the players wanted, and it's possible to do. Give a "normal" true last boss to japanese players (ops, sorry, I said japanese!) and they will beat it in some months and forget the game. Give them DOOM, for example, and they'll play for years.

please dont ever say "xtreme" again.. it takes me back to the time when everything was so "XTREME.." and makes me cringe.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net ... e_bullshit

[Twiddle]

Shikigami 3 - stage 4-2, 5-1 and 5-2 bosses. Ugh. -_-;;

in before gungriffon geona calling them easy

[Pirate1019]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net ... e_bullshit

I love his site. I have read almost all of his stuff.

Every boss is unfair. Simply because they have superior firepower and superior armor.

We all have at least a little masochist in us and that's why we only find some bosses unfair.

Or maybe we all just suck.

[Rob]

BANANA ASSAULT!