Recent DC shmup impressions?

[Kiken]

Anyway, Silvergun's chaining doesn't involve the ship itself; it's more or less just another different chaining system with selected targeting, the same of which can be said of Dodonpachi where you selectively don't kill all enemies immediately so that you continue your chain . Meanwhile, Ikaruga focuses on synchronizing your shots along with your color changing, which is more of the puzzle aspect of the gameplay.

As for random shooting, yes, you can certainly get by the game hardly ever color changing. However, generic shooting doesn't affect the basic gameplay itself in Silvergun (meaning no penalties) whereas imprecise color changing and shooting at the wrong vertical negatively affects your survival in basic Ikaruga play.

Incorrect.

The score-system is directly linked to the weapon experience system. To maximize your weapon levels as quickly as possible, you need to learn to chain effectively. Failing to do so results in an under-powered craft later in the game, which can cause numerous problems while fighting bosses.

The Saturn mode, however, removes this aspect of gameplay due to its inclusion of an experience (and score) save system.

[BulletMagnet]

Thanks, Bulletmagnet. You've said on at least two threads that you are not a hardcore shmupper, but you seem to have the knowledge of one.

Heh, nah, I've just played both (and own one) and can remember at least the basic idea of each off the top of my head. Hope they helped.

[Darkcomet72]

Incorrect.

The score-system is directly linked to the weapon experience system. To maximize your weapon levels as quickly as possible, you need to learn to chain effectively. Failing to do so results in an under-powered craft later in the game, which can cause numerous problems while fighting bosses..

Hmmm.... Yeah... Actually, If you can hold your own against bosses, Weak weapons aren't much of a problem. The problem is during the level, in which weak enemies cannot even be destroyed...

My main problem is how the Weapons actually level up... I need to know the numbers... Is it the score, or the chaining? What about weapon bonuses? How do some weapons level up?

[BulletMagnet]

AFAIK in Silvergun weapons level up as you score more points by using them: for instance, if you shoot absolutely everything with the vulcan weapon, only it will level up, and the homing and side shots will not level up at all. If you use the combo weapons (back shot, homing plasma, etc.) the points gained are "split" to level up both weapons involved, and stuff killed with the sword adds some points to all three. It doesn't matter how you score the points (chaining, weapon bonuses, etc.), it just matters which weapon you use to score them, as that weapon will be the one that benefits. I don't know the exact score amounts which levels stuff up though...IIRC it takes longer to do in Saturn mode than it does in Arcade.

[Ganelon]

The score-system is directly linked to the weapon experience system. To maximize your weapon levels as quickly as possible, you need to learn to chain effectively. Failing to do so results in an under-powered craft later in the game, which can cause numerous problems while fighting bosses.

Right, but that's not an instantaneously noticeable consequence like with Ikaruga's switch-shoot gameplay. Going with the "eventual consequence" argument, you could extend the Silvergun experience systen to Batsugun and claim that selected targeting will lead to more experience which will yield earlier firepower and more bombs, serving you better later on. Or DOJ giving you access to more hypers if you chain correctly enabling you to defeat bosses faster. Or hell it'll even apply to extends in countless shooters where a better score will help you gain more lives later on.

The question is, where's the gray line where playing to score doesn't equate to a bigger advantage? I draw it at instantaneous difference as in Ikaruga where non-judicious use of color switching leads to immediately noticeable disadvantage.

[snap monkey]

Anyway, Silvergun's chaining doesn't involve the ship itself; it's more or less just another different chaining system with selected targeting, the same of which can be said of Dodonpachi where you selectively don't kill all enemies immediately so that you continue your chain . Meanwhile, Ikaruga focuses on synchronizing your shots along with your color changing, which is more of the puzzle aspect of the gameplay.

First off, in Ikaruga (Normal difficulty), the color of you ship affects:

* how much damage you deal (double against the opposite color)

* what bullets can kill you (opposite = bad, like are absorbed for points)

* whether enemies spray suicide bulletts (like does, opposite doesn't)

* how many points an individual enemy is worth (opposite colored enemies are worth twice as much, however this does NOT act as a chain bonus multiplier)

So, chaining in Ikaruga is in no way related to the state of your ship. Chaining the opposite color or the like, black or white, it makes no difference. A chain is a chain. In Radiant Silvergun, however, chaining is linked to your ship because it is how you power up your weapons. You would have a much easier time getting through Ikaruga by blindly shooting everything than RS.

Right, but that's not an instantaneously noticeable consequence like with Ikaruga's switch-shoot gameplay.

You get bonus points for leveling up your weapons. That's as instantaneous as anything else. Sure, it's only 10,000 points per level, but that's a lot more than you're likely to get for scratching, which you mentioned earlier, and in the same ballpark as some of the Merry Dogs.

[Ganelon]

So, chaining in Ikaruga is in no way related to the state of your ship.

Nor did I ever say that. If you'll take another look at my original post, I was saying that Silvergun's CHAINING (which you pointed out is the main source of points) doesn't affect your ship directly/immediately. I was also saying that Ikaruga's COLOR SWITCHING did affect your ship directly/immediately. I never stated that Ikaruga's chaining system affected the ship's state. Remember, if you take a look at my first post, I wasn't comparing chaining to chaining at all; I was comparing scratching to color switching.

In Radiant Silvergun, however, chaining is linked to your ship because it is how you power up your weapons. You would have a much easier time getting through Ikaruga by blindly shooting everything than RS.

Well then, so much amassing missiles, eh? I wouldn't say going through Ikaruga without color switching would be easier than Silvergun without chaining. Then again, I've never played the former without color switching so I wouldn't know.

You get bonus points for leveling up your weapons. That's as instantaneous as anything else.

No, because what are the chances you're going to level up your weapons each time you shoot them? As I already stated, compared to the fact that you're doing half damage or vulnerable to attack in Ikaruga, amassing just the right amount of points to weapon level in Silvergun is as non-instantaneous as leveling up your weapon in Batsugun, gaining a hyper in DOJ, or reaching an extend in just about any shooter.

[snap monkey]

Anyway, Silvergun's chaining doesn't involve the ship itself; it's more or less just another different chaining system with selected targeting, the same of which can be said of Dodonpachi where you selectively don't kill all enemies immediately so that you continue your chain . Meanwhile, Ikaruga focuses on synchronizing your shots along with your color changing, which is more of the puzzle aspect of the gameplay.

Well, when you write a paragraph about Silvergun's chaining and then contrast it to Ikaruga in the same paragraph, I assume you haven't changed subjects. Perhaps an oversight on my part, I just wanted to make it clear.

As far if something is linked to your ship or not... if it's linked to your ship then that should mean that it in some way affects and/or is affected by the state of your ship. Weapon leveling is linked to your ship in RS because it changes the properties of your ship. Gaining a bomb or an extend does not change your ship, you just now have an extra bomb or life to work with. If you don't see weapon leveling as instantaneous, fine, but I don't see why the immediacy of it should have anything to do with its connection.

[Darkcomet72]

Well, it's nigh on IMPOSSIBLE to beat Ikaruga without Color Switching. All of stage 1 can be done, all of stage 2, all of stage 3, all of stage 4, and 5-1 can be done. The thing is, at 5-2, Tageri has those Homing lasers. They are impossible to avoid without switching.

[Specineff]

Going back to topic at hand, I'm falling in love with Shiki 2. Treasure can keep its puzzle-shmup. I'm officially now an Alfa System whore.

[icepick]

I'm falling in love with Shiki 2.

Yay!

Tomorrow is Shikigami no Shiro II (DC)'s birthday. For sure, for sure I'm going to get a bunch of work done and clear my schedule for tomorrow night, so that I can finally spend some quality time and amass a bunch of high (low?) scores, to submit to the high scores thread.

By the way, ever since seeing screenshots of this game, I've been wondering as to whether or not owners of only the DC edition were missing out by not having those fancy "character" pillarbox borders.

After having tried the PC Windows demo, which features those borders, I now note that they're somewhat distracting, and would rather have the plain black "void" around the scaled gameplay area. Then again, since I am so in love with true TATE mode now, it's somewhat of a moot point.

I'm officially now an Alfa System whore.

Ha ha. I myself am not one quite yet, but I might be, if they port SNS3 to DC. Probably not going to happen, so, maybe they'll port it to PC (and I'll get a more-recent graphics card). Oh, and I forgot to mention up there... I do prefer the graphics representation of the DC version of SNS2 to the PC version. (Although I should probably get a DC VGA box first, to make an accurate comparison... )

[Frogacuda]

On the DC import front, the two games that receive the most praise around here are Border Down and ZG2. Can someone familiar with both games please compare them? What familiar games are they similar to?

Border Down is supposedly an "unofficial" Darius sequel, though I haven't played enough of the later Darius game to know

Correction: Border Down is an unofficial sequel to Metal Black. Metal Black was itself a Darius-ish game, but had some pretty unique mechanics to it, all of which are borrowed and built upon in Border Down. Border Down is a much better, more polished game than Metal Black ever was, but the influence will pretty much smack you in the face, from the giant beam battles with bosses to the power up bar.

If you haven't played Metal Black, think of BD as Darius meets Thunderforce. It's a fast paced twitch side scroller with some branching paths (though it's different than how they're handled in Darius), selectable ship speed, and some solid gameplay ideas.

Zero Gunner is still very much a Psikyo shmup at heart. Think of a really pretty Strikers 1999 with a rotation mechanism and multi-directional action. Ace stuff.