Recent DC shmup impressions?

Justin · Post by **Justin** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:38 am

I read the Trizeal preorder thread last night, and it got me thinking about the recently-released DC shmups. I hear that Border Down is spectacular, and thus I'll probably pony up for it soon. For those who have played them, how are Chaos Field and Trizeal? Are they worth the $50-60 to pick them up? Also, are there any more DC shmups that I should be aware of besides Gunbird 2, Mars Matrix, Giga Wing, 'Ruga, etc.?

snap monkey · Post by **snap monkey** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:47 am

In my mind, Ikaruga is the reason to own a DC. However, opinions on that game vary widely; you either love it to death or avoid it like the plague. I will say though that people who call it a puzzle game have no idea what they are talking about.

I can't comment heavily on many of the other games, but the more footage of Giga Wing 2 I see, the more I want to get it. Great classical music score, and deep gameplay if you refrain from using bombs. I am also interested in Chaos Field, again for the music and I also think the boss-only idea is interesting.

subcons · Post by **subcons** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:12 am

Zero Gunner 2.

That is all.

TWITCHDOCTOR · Post by **TWITCHDOCTOR** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:37 am

snap monkey wrote:In my mind, Ikaruga is the reason to own a DC. However, opinions on that game vary widely; you either love it to death or avoid it like the plague. I will say though that people who call it a puzzle game have no idea what they are talking about.

I can't comment heavily on many of the other games, but the more footage of Giga Wing 2 I see, the more I want to get it. Great classical music score, and deep gameplay if you refrain from using bombs. I am also interested in Chaos Field, again for the music and I also think the boss-only idea is interesting.

Well, I call it a "puzzle" game, and I know exactly what I'm talking about.

jp · Post by jp » Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:41 am

Border Down - Best.hori.EVAR!!! IMO. Gameplay wise this game is sheer perfection. The enemy/character design is lacking though. Thankfully, the music more than makes up for that!

Ikaruga - Its fun, no Radiant Silvergun, but fun. A bit too easy since the game is 75% memorization.

Shikigami no Shiro 2 - Decent. Not the greatest game ever, but not too shabby. Its fun for what it is.

Psyvarier 2 - Shit on a disc.

Chaos Field - Better than Psyvarier 2 and Shikigami no Shiro 2 IMO. A nice homage to Souky, Radiant Silvergun, etc.

it290 · Post by **it290** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:48 am

'Shit on a disc'? Ouch, that's a bit harsh.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:21 am

Someone doesn't seem to like manics very much...

snap monkey · Post by **snap monkey** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:24 am

TWITCHDOCTOR wrote:
snap monkey wrote:In my mind, Ikaruga is the reason to own a DC. However, opinions on that game vary widely; you either love it to death or avoid it like the plague. I will say though that people who call it a puzzle game have no idea what they are talking about.

I can't comment heavily on many of the other games, but the more footage of Giga Wing 2 I see, the more I want to get it. Great classical music score, and deep gameplay if you refrain from using bombs. I am also interested in Chaos Field, again for the music and I also think the boss-only idea is interesting.

Well, I call it a "puzzle" game, and I know exactly what I'm talking about.

Just curious, do you also consider Radiant Silvergun to fall in the same lot?

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:34 am

Err, Radiant Silvergun focuses on scraping bullets and generic shoot-em-up action (albeit with 7 weapons), far different from the methodical almost-puzzle-like targeting that high level Ikaruga play requires. You can't just blast away at enemies in Ikaruga like in nearly every other shooter.

Neon · Post by **Neon** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:40 am

Puzzle games are randomized. You don't play the same game of Magical Drop 3, Tetris, or Puyo Puyo twice. Not so with Ikaruga.

alpha5099 · Post by **alpha5099** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:03 am

Border Down is good. But spectacular is a little much. I wouldn't get your hopes up to high.

snap monkey · Post by **snap monkey** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:07 am

Ganelon wrote:Err, Radiant Silvergun focuses on scraping bullets and generic shoot-em-up action (albeit with 7 weapons), far different from the methodical almost-puzzle-like targeting that high level Ikaruga play requires.

Considering that Radiant Silvergun introduced the idea of color chaining, I'd have to disagree. If you want to get a decent score in RS, you have to understand how the chaining system works and kill enemies accordingly. Scraping bullets only gives marginal score boosts (in integrals of 10), while chains can be worth as much as 100,000 points. Videos on stage 5a illustrate this well. I've seen both Ben Shinobi's and VTF-INO's replays and there is nothing haphazard about them.

raiden · Post by **raiden** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:10 am

Puzzle games are randomized.

to what genre does Sokoban belong, then? A lot of puzzle games include pre-designed levels along with a randomized mode, too.

LoneSage · Post by **LoneSage** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:12 am

Ikaruga's somewhat of a puzzle shmup if you intend to play it that way.

Question about Border Down, which release of it is more rare: the Limited Edition or regular release? Cos I've heard from a few guys that the regular version is rarer.

subcons · Post by **subcons** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:15 am

Hmm... Chaos Field sounds right up my alley. I'll have to pick that one up eventually.

Post by **Dave_K.** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:01 am

subcons wrote:Zero Gunner 2.

That is all.

I can't agree with your more! This is the absolute best (and last) shmup from Psyiko. I don't understand why I don't see more people talking about it here. I guess this is more of a Cave fansite than anything else.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:25 am

There's a ZG2 topic in the high score and strategy sections, but there isn't much to say about it since it's a very simple game.

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:36 am

On the DC import front, the two games that receive the most praise around here are Border Down and ZG2. Can someone familiar with both games please compare them? What familiar games are they similar to? Since I can only afford to buy one of these in the coming months, I'd like to pick the right one (though perhaps one cannot go wrong).

Post by **nZero** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:51 am

Zero Gunner 2 - 5 stars A great new formula from... Psikyo, of all people! Fantastic multiplayer shooter.

Ikaruga - 5 stars Nothing short of epic in presentation and execution. Easy to pick up, a bitch to master.

Border Down - 4 stars I like this game-- and I usually don't like hori shooters much. Beam cancel, music, story... just too cool!

Psyvariar 2 - 5 stars Buzz system makes this a great shot of adrenaline. Beautiful game, cool music, but very feature-starved port.

Shikigami no Shiro 2 - 3 stars Includes a bunch of stuff I'd normally like, but I hardly ever want to play it. Oh well.

Chaos Field - 4 stars It's all one-on-one with bosses. It has a melee attack. It has no problem kicking my ass, and... I love it.

I don't regret picking up a single one of these. What a fantastic run the system's had... can't freakin' wait for Trizeal to get here.

subcons · Post by **subcons** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:57 am

professor ganson wrote:On the DC import front, the two games that receive the most praise around here are Border Down and ZG2. Can someone familiar with both games please compare them? What familiar games are they similar to? Since I can only afford to buy one of these in the coming months, I'd like to pick the right one (though perhaps one cannot go wrong).

It really comes down to you on this one.

I own Boder Down, and honestly, I'm not nuts about it. I recognize what it does well, and it does it very well, but as a whole package, it just doesn't excite me. Then again, I'm usually not one for hori's either... although I seem to find myself infatuated with Gradius as of late.

I can't say enough great things about Zero Gunner 2. It's just a really great game. I wish I could go back to when I first picked it up. I played the shit out of it.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:06 am

Zero Gunner 2 is much more accessible. All you have to learn is how to rotate the ship. Border Down might as well come with a 100 page manual. Doesn't feel entirely right not playing for score. It feels cheapened like a 16-bit shooter kind of like Air Buster/Aero Blasters, with the knowledge you're playing a terribly deep shooter like it was Air Buster. Ikaruga syndrome.

Post by **BulletMagnet** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:06 am

professor ganson wrote:On the DC import front, the two games that receive the most praise around here are Border Down and ZG2. Can someone familiar with both games please compare them? What familiar games are they similar to?

Border Down is supposedly an "unofficial" Darius sequel, though I haven't played enough of the later Darius game to know: ship speed is adjustable, tapping the fire button gives you a weak homing laser, holding it gives you a stronger straight shot. As you destroy enemies and collect powerups your "power meter" grows, and your weapons get stronger: however, you also have a "break laser" weapon which uses up the power meter, eats up bullets and gives you temporary invincibility. The main idea of scoring is to use the break laser to eat up as many bullets as possible, as it adds to a multiplier.

ZG2 is "technically" a vertscroller since you see it from above, but the game scrolls in all directions, because you're able to turn your craft around 360 degrees to shoot all over the place. Powering up is the same as in most Psikyo games, but you can also collect "bomb fragments" a la Raizing to get more special weapon stocks; holding down the "turn" button without shooting will draw all onscreen items towards you, sort of like you can do in Progear. No real score system to speak of, but the game seems much slower paced than a lot of Psikyo's stuff, and I personally like it that way, as there are fewer "out of nowhere, impossible to dodge unless you know exactly where to go" bullet patterns to deal with.

Graphics for both are fairly "routine" in terms of style (sci-fi for the first, military for the latter), but both are good quality, though not up to par with the likes of Ikaruga (though more colorful, obviously). I wouldn't rate either one as personal "top tier" games for me, but I still think they're good, and worth playing. BD tends to fetch a higher price than ZG2, though the prices for both, in my experience, are rising.

Hopefully that covers the basics...

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:25 am

Thanks, Bulletmagnet. You've said on at least two threads that you are not a hardcore shmupper, but you seem to have the knowledge of one.

BUHA · Post by **BUHA** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:47 am

Ikaruga is the only shooter i've been playing on my DC. Well, that and twinklestar sprites! great 2P action!

I'm crazy about hori's, but border down doesn't do much for me at all. And i still don't get how anyone can stomach the music let along LOVE it like a lot of posters have said. It makes me want to vomit. it's soooo out of place and obnoxious. Almost enough to make me want to hate the game on that alone. But the rest of the game just doesn't do anything for me. I'd rather play tumiki fighter. it's a better game AND ITS FREE

Damocles · Post by **Damocles** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:56 am

raiden wrote:
Puzzle games are randomized.
to what genre does Sokoban belong, then? A lot of puzzle games include pre-designed levels along with a randomized mode, too.

Surprising that none of the Cave fanboys have brought up Uo Poko. Damn good game methinks....no randomization either.

On topic, I tip my hat to Shiki 2. In my mind it is the epitome of what a shmup should be like. Think I'll go play that now, actually.....

dboeren · Post by **dboeren** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:36 pm

I tried Uo Poko in MAME and liked it, it's definately up there with Puzzle Bobble quality-wise. I'd get it if it was availale for a decent price, as my wife likes puzzle games and has cats too so I'm sure she'd like it. Personally, I think it's hilarious when Uo Poko drowns though

nullpointer · Post by **nullpointer** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:29 pm

Well I play more shmups on my DC than any other console..
So heres my 2 penneth too!

ZeroGunner2 : This is a fun game, a little traditional for me, even with the lock roatate option . its the enemy craft/patterns that seem a bit old, but its a blast to play..

Border Down : While I appreciate the advanced scoring paths offered by this game and admire its 3 tier system I dont really dig it. I think Its a combo of slightly featureless ship design and tech-jazz music (which is fine but not very atmospheric, kind of lite). Seems a bit stat heavy for me,
I can handle 1-2 score schemes but this is too much for me

GV gets my hori vote..

Shiki2 : Despite most peoples opinions I love this game. I think its a combo of the graphical style (plain manga wierdness) and the shiki attacks that make me love it. Plus its the only shmup I can actually clear and then go back to improve my scoring!

Ikaruga : Nuff said, it is the best DC shmup. Looks amazing, amazing level design and hard as nails, stil cant beat it and i can only chain a fraction of the stages, but i still love it.

Chaos field : Not sure about this one yet. it just feels sort of lazy, the enemy designs are a bit plain and the backgrounds are really boring. I like the combo ideas but the vert/hori format doesnt work well with boss levels imho.

Gigawing2 : great game, basically coz it looks great (better than gw) and is full of explosions... Ok so i play it in a random panic way but i've seen some amazing replays to convince me that you can play with great skill (even if you cant remember that 2000 digit high score!)

Psy2 : I love the replays and I love the system, but I just cant manage to roll well and so havent really got into it properly. Forgive me for saying so but bring back the roll button from Psy revision!!! I dont even care if the gfx are a bit plain coz its all about the buzzin doood!

anyway, none of these games are too bad and I come back to them all fairly often, you can even get homebrew ports of some aba stuff now i think!! DC lives on!

p.s. dont dont dont miss out on bangai-oh either ...simply mental..

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:56 pm

Ok, here's the Laydown:

Chaos Field is well worth the money it's going for at the moment. Ignore the naysayers and give it a try. It defenitely has it's faults (no high-score saving and slow down), but basically is a really nice game to play, with outstanding music too imho.

Shikigami No Shiro 2 is also worthy of it asking price. A nice package, again with nice music and the buzz system works addictive in this game (as opposed to certain other shmups)!

Border Down is just fantastic, but the reasons why I and others find it fantastic are probably the same reasons why others hate it.Great Graphics and music and a very deep scoring system... Top notch!

Giga Wing 2 seems too be an acquired taste: I find it totally inferior as a game compared to part one. It has noticably nicer graphics and an great musical score but also imo more slowdown, unrecognizable bullets and a "I just want to be special and high-tech more than just be a good game" feeling.

Psyvariar 2 is something I personally don't like but that's more due to the system of playing and powering up to which I can't relate to much. I thas decent graphics and a nice musical score. You should try it to see if it is YOUR taste. Nothing too bad about this game.

Mars Matrix: Generally loved by many, but I don't like it a bit. Sub-par Graphics, forgettable music and gameplay that doesn't click with me.

Zero Gunner 2: Some very nice graphics (especially the boss climbing between skyscrapers

), ok music (nothing special though) and a control scheme that takes some getting used to... Not too bad, but not the classic some make it out to be. Also, VERY easy!

Ikaruga is a game you'll either LOVE or HATE, it is decidedly different from other shmups with it's puzzle like gameplay. Graphics are outstanding, music is arguably super too. just not my taste at all...

FRO · Post by **FRO** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 3:24 pm

Ganelon wrote:Err, Radiant Silvergun focuses on scraping bullets and generic shoot-em-up action (albeit with 7 weapons), far different from the methodical almost-puzzle-like targeting that high level Ikaruga play requires. You can't just blast away at enemies in Ikaruga like in nearly every other shooter.

Not to be too technical, but you can, it's just not meant to be played that way.

Ganelon · Post by **Ganelon** » Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:09 pm

snap monkey wrote:If you want to get a decent score in RS, you have to understand how the chaining system works and kill enemies accordingly.

True, Silvergun has the same chaining system but that's a similarity between the 2 so I couldn't make that point.

I just mentioning scraping bullets because that's a unique feature it had. And speaking of scratching, Silvergun offers some alternative ways to net points such as collecting the dogs whereas in Ikaruga, the sole objective in high scoring play is to chain.

Anyway, Silvergun's chaining doesn't involve the ship itself; it's more or less just another different chaining system with selected targeting, the same of which can be said of Dodonpachi where you selectively don't kill all enemies immediately so that you continue your chain . Meanwhile, Ikaruga focuses on synchronizing your shots along with your color changing, which is more of the puzzle aspect of the gameplay.

As for random shooting, yes, you can certainly get by the game hardly ever color changing. However, generic shooting doesn't affect the basic gameplay itself in Silvergun (meaning no penalties) whereas imprecise color changing and shooting at the wrong vertical negatively affects your survival in basic Ikaruga play.