Rate this game: BORDER DOWN

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:22 pm

I kinda felt bad not having post here and joining the big love-in for Border Down. I almost wish the first level didn't exist though since it gives no clue as to how great this game will get. It is a brilliantly designed horizontal shooter, perhaps even making up for the absurd slowdown problem in G-Darius. It is a crime more were not made and it didn't see a port on another console, since BD is easily one of the best horizontals in years (some will laugh given the existance of Gradius V, but Gradius is a very different kind of shmup!)

BD not only strongly reminds me of G-Darius, but also Thunderforce 3-5 ias far as fast paced, nearly manic horizontal shmups.

What more can be said? I wish it wasn't so damn expensive now...

The Bullet Dodger · Post by **The Bullet Dodger** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:49 am

9 out of 10.

If you get to the final boss, you'll know why it deserves a 9. Definetly one of my favorite horizontals off all time. I just wish the gameplay were a little faster. Still, great music, visuals, bosses, and replayability make it a must-have shmup.

I loves it.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:11 am

Oh well...

Yes, i agree with my review, even if tend to change my opinions over time. In case, it's in the archive, for the "new" people who are interested in it.

UnscathedFlyingObject · Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:31 am

Aren't we overrating this game a lot? I saw that video in the other BD thread and the player had to kill himself on purpose twice to make the game manageable when fighting the boss. That's just a big example of unbalanced gameplay. Whatever game that requires me to kill myself to be able to continue deserves a letter grade less. No matter if it is the best game on the planet.

Edit: is it possible to remain in one border to curb the need of suicide? If no, consider my previous comments seriously meant.

BUHA · Post by **BUHA** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:40 am

UFO said it. THis game's a turd. I think everyone (for some crazy reason) likes the music so much that they don't care what the game plays like.

You shouldn't be forced to suicide on any shmup. It's just stupid.

Zach Keene · Post by **Zach Keene** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:00 am

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Aren't we overrating this game a lot? I saw that video in the other BD thread and the player had to kill himself on purpose twice to make the game manageable when fighting the boss.

If it's the video I think it is (someone abusing stage 3 on green for an absurd break bonus?), I don't think rank control was the purpose of those suicides.

CMoon · Post by **CMoon** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:04 am

Yeah, most of the time when people are suiciding, it is for points. I find that rank is relatively managable, especially since you can get an extra life every level. Hmmm, here we go again with the rank thing...wheee!

UnscathedFlyingObject · Fri Mar 18, 2005 2:44 am

Zach Keene wrote:
UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Aren't we overrating this game a lot? I saw that video in the other BD thread and the player had to kill himself on purpose twice to make the game manageable when fighting the boss.
If it's the video I think it is (someone abusing stage 3 on green for an absurd break bonus?), I don't think rank control was the purpose of those suicides.

It's the one set in the asteroid level, and how the heck does someone get points from smashing into the boss?

Zach Keene · Post by **Zach Keene** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:23 am

From the fact that the value of every enemy is multiplied by 3 when you're in red border. The reason the player started stage 3 in green is that the green level 3 areas give better opportunties for getting hits with the break laser.

EDIT: after reviewing the video it's actually the green boss that's the main hit generator here, not the green areas. Destroying the first form on red border with a 999 multipler =

UnscathedFlyingObject · Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:31 am

^

It still sucks to die, even for points.

BUHA · Post by **BUHA** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:10 am

yeah, there should be no reason to kill yourself on purpose, EVER.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:10 am

You guys must think Battle Garegga is a gigantic turd then.

DEL · Post by **DEL** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:43 am

Dying on purpose is implicit in the name of the game = BORDER DOWN

Certain people here, haven't done their homework before posting comments on this thread.

This game is a Masterpiece

--------------------------------------------------

As for the soundtrack, I'm not a huge fan of it, but I do like the ST5 track.

Nei First · Post by **Nei First** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:57 am

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:
Zach Keene wrote:
UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Aren't we overrating this game a lot? I saw that video in the other BD thread and the player had to kill himself on purpose twice to make the game manageable when fighting the boss.
If it's the video I think it is (someone abusing stage 3 on green for an absurd break bonus?), I don't think rank control was the purpose of those suicides.
It's the one set in the asteroid level, and how the heck does someone get points from smashing into the boss?

It must be the vidoe I posted that you're talking about.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's a mix of two reasons.

1). The reason he killed himself with the first boss was to Border Down, and get more points by using the break laser. (Red Border being the most difficult meaning more points). He also tries to kill the last boss by the least possible time limit, which if done right gives more points.

2). Another possible reason he killed himself with the first boss, was so he can spend the remainder of the boss fight in the "Red Border", which can mean getting a different final stage at the end. (You have to spend at least 50% of your time in certain border colours, and clear the stage norm 4 or more times to get a different Final stage).

Which ever way you look at it, yes the whole sucide strategy and Border system is "alternative" I agree, and can turn some people off. I like the fact that it's different. How many countless other shmups do we have already that follow the same system? For me it's a welcome change.

Randorama · Post by **Randorama** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:20 pm

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Aren't we overrating this game a lot? I saw that video in the other BD thread and the player had to kill himself on purpose twice to make the game manageable when fighting the boss. That's just a big example of unbalanced gameplay. Whatever game that requires me to kill myself to be able to continue deserves a letter grade less. No matter if it is the best game on the planet.

Edit: is it possible to remain in one border to curb the need of suicide? If no, consider my previous comments seriously meant.

You don't of course know what are you talking about. There's an ST in the proper section that exaplains how these things work, maybe you can read it to get an idea: of course if you want to have prejudices, your right.

And: the "We" is completely unappropriate, everyone overrates or underrates what he likes, conformism masked as "general consesus" is the worst aspect of this forum. If you don't like something, it's better if you speak for yourself and take responsibility for your point of view, instead of pretending that all the users share the same brain and have the same tastes,

Frogacuda · Post by **Frogacuda** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:00 pm

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:Aren't we overrating this game a lot? I saw that video in the other BD thread and the player had to kill himself on purpose twice to make the game manageable when fighting the boss. That's just a big example of unbalanced gameplay. Whatever game that requires me to kill myself to be able to continue deserves a letter grade less. No matter if it is the best game on the planet.

Edit: is it possible to remain in one border to curb the need of suicide? If no, consider my previous comments seriously meant.

The suiciding isn't about border shifting. Lower borders are actually harder. It's about rank cooling. And since the game's multiplier gimmick is based on bullet cancelling, you have to sacrifice some scoring potential when you do it. There are advantages and disadvantages to playing like this. I don't think its all that unbalanced.

UnscathedFlyingObject wrote:^

It still sucks to die, even for points.

Isn't doing something ballsy and taking a risk for a potential payoff what most good shmup playing is all about? It's not like the game forces you to play like this, it's just one strategy.

UnscathedFlyingObject · Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:45 pm

Ah well, I do accept I judged the game by a video, so I'll just stop it right here. I'll have to give you all my opinion once I get hold of the game.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:24 pm

The suiciding isn't about border shifting. Lower borders are actually harder. It's about rank cooling.

Not necessarily. While I don't deny suiciding can ultimately mean more points, the main reason you would suicide through the game is to make it easier. To quote from the manual, "if you go through this game without dying, it gets VERY hard. It's recommended to suicide once per level."

jp · Post by jp » Fri Mar 18, 2005 10:32 pm

Border Down is a hardcore fucking game. More props to G.Rev and anyone that can 1CC it.

Frogacuda · Post by **Frogacuda** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 3:04 am

GaijinPunch wrote:
The suiciding isn't about border shifting. Lower borders are actually harder. It's about rank cooling.
Not necessarily. While I don't deny suiciding can ultimately mean more points, the main reason you would suicide through the game is to make it easier. To quote from the manual, "if you go through this game without dying, it gets VERY hard. It's recommended to suicide once per level."

But the game gets easier because of the rank cooling, not the shift in border. That's what I was saying. If you started on that border or bordered down between levels those borders would be harder (and possibly more lucrative in terms of points, if you can handle it).

Bordering up between levels and suiciding at the beginning of the next level is a good way to cool rank while staying on the lucrative borders. But then that requires A) making the norms every level, and B) never dying except those suicides, and if you can do that, I certainly wouldn't rip on you for taking the "easy" way out.

There are pros and cons of the rank thing, but I find that in Border Down it was well thought out and balanced in a way that it's not in Battle Garrega and Psyvariar 2. I don't think the game should be dismissed because of it. It's not like Garrega where you pretty much have to suicide, nor is it like Psyvariar where you can kinda halfass through the game and cakewalk through it at a low rank.

BrianC · Post by **BrianC** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 8:09 am

I'm surprised that I haven't heard any complaints about Galaga with all the suicide complaints going around. That game requires the loss of a ship to power up. I have no problem with suiciding in Galaga and I do love that game, though.

Super Laydock · Post by **Super Laydock** » Sat Mar 19, 2005 12:34 pm

Nothing more honorable than taking your own life. It's YOU who decides when and how you die and not some enemie bullet making you feel stupid/sorry afterward. Bu that's not the point here I guess...

Let's just say it's an optional strategy for people playing for highscores.
If you just play to finish it, the game won't punish you for it (if I am correct) though possibly only in the scoring department. It also adds more depth and strategy to this game.

In fact I find the scoring system in this system one of the most intriguing I've encountered, and still am learning new thing every time I play it.

Oh, and on topic:

I think this is one of the best shmups I've played so far. Great graphics (though I agree this is debatable and thus only my opinion), fantastic music which is one of the best soundtracks ever (alongside some stuff from the Gradii) and simple gameplay with lot's of depth.
I would rate it 9.5 out of 10!

Frogacuda · Post by **Frogacuda** » Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:55 pm

The reason I don't think it's broken is that there's no tangible benefit to suiciding when playing for survival. It's not abuseable like that. Dying make the game get easier but it always sucks, and there's no advantage to dying sooner rather than later except to try to stay perpetually on the red border to go for the big points, which is risky any way you slice it.