Tatsujin Extreme (PS5/PC/Switch 2/Xbox Series)

[Faith]

The hurtbox is supposed to be large. That's proper STG design because there is no ambiguity about where it is. It's one of the biggest reasons that bullet hell is garbage. I don't remember how big Extreme's hurtbox is, but I seem to remember it being slightly smaller than Tatsujin's.

Err. About that... Truxton hitbox *is* ambiguous. First: it is not same size as sprite, actually. There is no clear boundary to show where it ends. Second: the size change depending on the angle of ship depending on how far you have moved. Like, if you hold down left... after a moment hitbox will get smaller, and even smaller shortly after. It is not fixed, and that is worst design. Touhou-style are usually the champion with very clearly defined hitbox size, and some Cave games (like Mushi) follow it.

See: https://shmups.wiki/library/Tatsujin#Hit_Box

How can this be guessed?!

For modern Cave games that show hitbox, usually the hitbox circle is still larger than the actual hitbox... but usually I can adjust to it in 3 minutes. It is not hard lol!

Also, if your hitbox is stupid shape like square (or worse... a gigantic rectangle like Truxton) it will really limit freedom and creativity with certain bullet pattern designs and how they can overlap but still be readable and more importantly being able to dodge them. So, think it is quite unreasonable to say they are not proper STG.

And, for Truxton: I feel it is poor design to just kill player to get coin from them just because they not know of every time enemy will spawn behind with no warning.

[Steven]

It's pretty easy, actually... think of it as if something touches your ship, you die, so don't let anything touch your sprite. You get a little bit of leeway, but there really isn't any ambiguity at all. Having a hurtbox that is significantly smaller than the player sprite/model for the purpose of being able to have many enemy shots on screen trades clarity of the how player's sprite/model relates to enemy shots for spectacle, and that is not a trade that I am willing to make, as I feel it is objectively bad/incorrect game design. I considered how I would feel about CAVE games if there was a ROM hack that shrinks the player sprite to match the size of the hurtbox, but then it would be tiny and hard to see at all, so clearly the correct solution is to have something that better matches the size of the player sprite/model. At least, I think so. Yes, hurtbox markers exist, but I am extremely uncomfortable with them (greetings, weird-looking Saidaioujou marker, that's you in particular) and prefer to macro out of the way of everything... or just not play games that have them. Then again I can't even clear supposed baby mode games like Daifukkatsu or Darius Gaiden, so...

Anyway, don't hang out at the very bottom of the screen until you know enemy spawns. Be far enough above it to be able to react, and then don't be there next time. There are only a handful of Toaplan games that I can remember that spawn enemies behind you that you can collide with and about half of them are Hellfire and Zero Wing, but Tatsujin is the worst about it by far, and I think it's maybe the game's second biggest weakness because it's not very interesting game design. Extreme does this too to some extent, and earlier than Tatsujin does because it happens on the first stage in Extreme while Tatsujin (probably? I haven't played it for like a year) waits until stage 2, so be ready for it if you're going to play Extreme.

I know IKD's opinion of it is that complaints about enemies suddenly colliding into you from behind are entirely irrelevant because you can memorize and then be somewhere else, but it is still frustrating and feels cheap, and that's why I thought it was a shit game for a while until I did the memo. Tatsujin's real biggest problem, I think, aside from the bloated enemy HP, is the very poor enemy shot visibility on stage 5. They changed enemy shot colors on that stage to blue instead of red, but it's still not great, especially because those shots blend in very well with your Thunder Laser and I still think they blend in with the background pretty well too. There is also a checkpoint on that stage where you'll get smashed by a rock 2 seconds after respawning if you don't move out of the way, which is also pretty questionable. You can have some fun with Tatsujin as long as you use autofire and know literally exactly what it wants from you, and it's one of Toaplan's easiest games once you know that, but yeah, it's like 97% memo and 3% execution, so if you hate games like that, you're going to hate Tatsujin.

[Sumez]

The hitbox in OG Truxton is completely fine
It's smaller than the sprite and totally intuitive. Enemies don't fire that many bullets, and the more dense patterns are usually best dodged entirely rather than attempted to go through, at least once you've gotten a few speed-ups

(the only trve way to play Truxtojin is to always be at max speed)

[Steven]

Yep, forgot about speed. Be at max speed for sure. Same with Tatsujin Ou.

Also use bombs. It's a Toaplan game, so you're supposed to use your bombs a lot as your secondary weapon anyway. Stage 3 has that bomb refill part (probably the coolest section of the game, if I'm being honest) and the game drops a decent amount of them in any case, so you don't really have to worry about running out.

Oh yeah, and safe spots. Those were all put there intentionally. There is some dumb shit like how the first set of minibosses on stage 2 lose their safe spot if you have the Thunder Laser, but there are a few minibosses that have safe spots that you're intended to use.

[Angry Hina]

The hurtbox is supposed to be large. That's proper STG design because there is no ambiguity about where it is. It's one of the biggest reasons that bullet hell is garbage. I don't remember how big Extreme's hurtbox is, but I seem to remember it being slightly smaller than Tatsujin's.

Also don't play Bitwave Tatsujin. Some of the music and literally all of the sound effects don't work properly. Use MAME. At least there it sounds correct. But yes, Tatsujin is a weird game. The first time you play it you'll probably think it's complete shit, but it's actually a lot of fun once you 1-ALL it and realize that it's actually a super easy game.

Arent Euros critizised for completely different things? Its absolutely not Euro, I would say, even if one dont likes it.

[Lord British]

You bought a PortStation 5 for fucking Cygni when you could have gotten it for FREE on PC, even though it still wasn't worth it for free? That's like buying an NES for Action 52 or a Mega Drive for CrazyBus. Actually Cygni is better than those games, but when your defense of Cygni is "at least it's not as bad as CrazyBus" that still means it's complete junk!

You're free to waste your money as you see fit of course, but damn, at least buy the PortStation 5 for actual good games, like.........................

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

does PS5 actually have any games aside from Astro Bot? I've had this dust collector for like 3 years and all it does is be a ShotTriggers/ACA machine.

Are you just crapping on the modern generation in general? If so, I can understand. But if the PS5 is particularly bad, then what is good now?

[Steven]

The hurtbox is supposed to be large. That's proper STG design because there is no ambiguity about where it is. It's one of the biggest reasons that bullet hell is garbage. I don't remember how big Extreme's hurtbox is, but I seem to remember it being slightly smaller than Tatsujin's.

Also don't play Bitwave Tatsujin. Some of the music and literally all of the sound effects don't work properly. Use MAME. At least there it sounds correct. But yes, Tatsujin is a weird game. The first time you play it you'll probably think it's complete shit, but it's actually a lot of fun once you 1-ALL it and realize that it's actually a super easy game.

Arent Euros critizised for completely different things? Its absolutely not Euro, I would say, even if one dont likes it.

Uh... I think you're talking to the wrong person, but I guess so, maybe. Only ones I've played are the demos for Cygni and Sine Mora.

You bought a PortStation 5 for fucking Cygni when you could have gotten it for FREE on PC, even though it still wasn't worth it for free? That's like buying an NES for Action 52 or a Mega Drive for CrazyBus. Actually Cygni is better than those games, but when your defense of Cygni is "at least it's not as bad as CrazyBus" that still means it's complete junk!

You're free to waste your money as you see fit of course, but damn, at least buy the PortStation 5 for actual good games, like.........................

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

does PS5 actually have any games aside from Astro Bot? I've had this dust collector for like 3 years and all it does is be a ShotTriggers/ACA machine.

Are you just crapping on the modern generation in general?

Yes I am.

[xEbb1993x]

I feel like you’re just very intolerant, Steven. But now this thread has left me at a crossroads. Should I get this for PS5, or get it on Switch 2?

[Steven]

Good for me.

Get it on PC from GOG.

[Angry Hina]

The hurtbox is supposed to be large. That's proper STG design because there is no ambiguity about where it is. It's one of the biggest reasons that bullet hell is garbage. I don't remember how big Extreme's hurtbox is, but I seem to remember it being slightly smaller than Tatsujin's.

Also don't play Bitwave Tatsujin. Some of the music and literally all of the sound effects don't work properly. Use MAME. At least there it sounds correct. But yes, Tatsujin is a weird game. The first time you play it you'll probably think it's complete shit, but it's actually a lot of fun once you 1-ALL it and realize that it's actually a super easy game.

Arent Euros critizised for completely different things? Its absolutely not Euro, I would say, even if one dont likes it.

Thats true. Wrong Quote. It was Faith, I was addressing.

[Sengoku Strider]

Arent Euros critizised for completely different things? Its absolutely not Euro, I would say, even if one dont likes it.

Euroshmups have shops. Like Fantasy Zone or Forgotten Worlds or Macross 2036 or UN Squadron or Ordyne or Lords of Thunder.

Spoiler

I think the only actual defining characteristics of Euroshmups are those bubbly metallic fonts every Amiga game used and dodgy controls.

[Angry Hina]

Guess not. (Too) high enemy HP and not so well designed bullet pattern and health and shield to compensate and not memo oriented stage design are very often named.

[Firehawke]

Guess not. (Too) high enemy HP and not so well designed bullet pattern and health and shield to compensate and not memo oriented stage design are very often named.

This. Euroshmups typically are a combination of very weak player firepower, massive player hitbox that can't avoid shots and requires some tanking, bad bullet patterns, and often also includes really bad play control-- often with momentum.

There are plenty of non-Euroshmups with shops, and even lifebars *CAN* be non-Euroshmup when done well (e.g. Area 88/U.N. Squadron)

[MJR]

Not all euroshmus are ill-thought amateurish trash, but they often are a symptom of young developers trying to rip off and "improve" their favourite coin ops without understanding what made them fun to play in the first place.

Good or at least competent euroshmups exist on C64 (Dropzone, Sanxion, Delta, Io, Uridium) and on Amiga (Datastorm, Z-out, Hybris, Battle Squadron, Starray).. and then, of course, there is a mountan of trash. Just as there exists a mountain of japanese-developed trash on arcade and consoles. Of course, the best classics on shmups are usually made by japanese so they hold the crown for sure.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Equating the "mountain" of trash on arcade or even consoles from Japan to the mountain of trash from Europe is quite an imaginative take on the subject, mind.

[MJR]

Equating the "mountain" of trash on arcade or even consoles from Japan to the mountain of trash from Europe is quite an imaginative take on the subject, mind.

Get out of my sight

[Bassa-Bassa]

lol, nope.

[jehu]

Equating the "mountain" of trash on arcade or even consoles from Japan to the mountain of trash from Europe is quite an imaginative take on the subject, mind.

Get out of my sight

Yes, two mountains of trash is apt given how they’re overshadowed by the pillar of gold that is STGs from the American occident.

Examples abound, I shan’t name any.

[Bassa-Bassa]

For whatever reason the US/Canada apparently were not as lenient as Europe to give out qualities of officialism to every bedroom game at disposal.

[Angry Hina]

Not all euroshmus are ill-thought amateurish trash, but they often are a symptom of young developers trying to rip off and "improve" their favourite coin ops without understanding what made them fun to play in the first place.

Good or at least competent euroshmups exist on C64 (Dropzone, Sanxion, Delta, Io, Uridium) and on Amiga (Datastorm, Z-out, Hybris, Battle Squadron, Starray).. and then, of course, there is a mountan of trash. Just as there exists a mountain of japanese-developed trash on arcade and consoles. Of course, the best classics on shmups are usually made by japanese so they hold the crown for sure.

Darius is sometimes the european of the japanese STGs, I think
I would say today, that the euro STG attributes can be picked up to make a good game as well, if you know, what you are doing, so I would deattach the term from the conclusion "bad STG". The shield items in Darius and several other shooters are one example of that these gameplay "decisions" are not a pad choice per se.

[MJR]

There is point indeed that we dont even talk about murican shmups.
If I think of american shmups I can only think of Defender and Defender Stargate by Eugene Jarvis. Asteroids and Blasteroids were apparently Murican as well. Otherwise than that, the good people there seemed to ignore the fine art of bedroom programming. Projects were already BIG in the eighties over there. Big box RPG releases and simulators.. I guess poor shmups didnt have nuff BIGNESS production value to them.

[SavagePencil]

There is point indeed that we dont even talk about murican shmups.
If I think of american shmups I can only think of Defender and Defender Stargate by Eugene Jarvis. Asteroids and Blasteroids were apparently Murican as well. Otherwise than that, the good people there seemed to ignore the fine art of bedroom programming. Projects were already BIG in the eighties over there. Big box RPG releases and simulators.. I guess poor shmups didnt have nuff BIGNESS production value to them.

Uh the home computer revolution was largely driven by US bedroom coders. Ultima, Bill Budge, Nasir Ghebelli, Sierra, Sirius, Apogee, etc. but it’s true that shmups definitely fell off the radars.

[MJR]

There is point indeed that we dont even talk about murican shmups.
If I think of american shmups I can only think of Defender and Defender Stargate by Eugene Jarvis. Asteroids and Blasteroids were apparently Murican as well. Otherwise than that, the good people there seemed to ignore the fine art of bedroom programming. Projects were already BIG in the eighties over there. Big box RPG releases and simulators.. I guess poor shmups didnt have nuff BIGNESS production value to them.

Uh the home computer revolution was largely driven by US bedroom coders. Ultima, Bill Budge, Nasir Ghebelli, Sierra, Sirius, Apogee, etc. but it’s true that shmups definitely fell off the radars.

At the very earliest days, yes, but by 1985 US development scene had bigger companies and teams already (Sierra, Epyx, EA, Origin, Microprose etc); It was in UK and Europe where most games were still made by lone programmer. This was largely due to fact that US adopted disc drive more eagerly while UK & europe was mostly hanging on to cassette format (meaning games were preferred on single load - many US games were either not available on tape or total pain to play as multiload games). The disc format allowed for larger games, which required more people on development. There was a real difference.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Too bad that even when disc formats became commonplace with the Amiga and DOS PCs, the mountain of eurotrash served didn't shrink a bit.

[theclaw]

Hey. Tyrian is a US-developed shmup that has a shop.

[Sengoku Strider]

Tyrian is a US-developed shmup

Why did I always think it was a UK thing?

after a long wait, Robert Allen—head of Safari Software—considered Tyrian to fit perfectly with their company, which handled smaller scale projects. Robert Allen had word from Cliff Bleszinski that Tyrian was very similar to Zanac, thinking that it should be followed up.

I suddenly have newfound respect for Cliffy B.

[mukimuki_rs]

I guess there isn't a special version without the model? I would like just the art book, manga and soundtrack as extras.

Also be careful on Amazon Japan if you're ordering from there, I guess because of the model, once you pre-order you are locked in until it ships and won't be able to cancel. Have made that mistake before.

The model is a Japan only item; the EU/US editions have the art book, soundtrack and the manga (which is in English too; bonus!).

[tzm_rade]

The model is a Japan only item; the EU/US editions have the art book, soundtrack and the manga (which is in English too; bonus!).

Thanks. Unfortunately I would like the manga in Japanese and the game will always be Tatsujin to me!

(Also don't want to pay shipping costs)

[mukimuki_rs]

Thanks. Unfortunately I would like the manga in Japanese and the game will always be Tatsujin to me!

(Also don't want to pay shipping costs)

Shipping costs would be a killer if you’re outside EU/US.
And those old school title localisations are always a pain to deal with (fwiw, I never got used to Truxton either!)

[Lord British]

I don't know if I'm the first to mention, but it appears the digital release date for PS5 is July 30th