21st Annual Top 25 Shmups of All Time - Discussion Thread

[birb]

BRDA has a classic mode option which plays like DA but with closer to OG rules. You can have every extend Parallel and gigantic bomb iframes + better controls and less tedious stage 5 all at the same time.

Pretty much. If you don't want to deal with DA's stressful parallel mode. The classic parallel mode is pretty close to old parallel except with new bomb damage and higher main shot damage and better stage structure imo. I did call classic parallel a cope clear in my parallel guide as a joke so don't take it seriously... Classic parallel is very fun for scoring

One detail though is that classic mode does remove perks from weapons. So a few rankings in score potential gets twisted up. e.g. Mae laser is the best mae weapon for scoring for the sole fact that it can flourish enemies faster than others with its amazing damage. Mae cluster missile took a hard hit because it lacks the perk that makes it strong but still retains the phenomenal splash damage. I'm still unsure how flourish extension works in OG. If there is no fall off then cluster missile just struggles in old scoring system. It's fascinating to me personally and I have messed around with classic. Getting a WR on all modes with mae laser because thats my favorite weapon

[Steven]

Oh yeah I was supposed to actually play Batrider and Bakraid for this voting thingy so I could consider them. I definitely did not do that. Oops. I'll get to it later. Maybe by 2040. Or maybe by 2050. Or maybe I'll forget again. That's likely.

[mojilove]

late but thank you for organising these votes!!

two comments about my vote:
1. milestone/rs34 games deserve a place in the pantheon
2. i do genuinely have a soft spot for doj dx. its dinky and cute!!!

[1000Eyes]

1. milestone/rs34 games deserve a place in the pantheon

How do you feel about the rs34 sequels? I'm not in a position to buy them and evaluate them myself, but the original Radirgy and Karous is quickly climbing the ranks of my fav caravan games ever.

[To Far Away Times]

Nice to see three votes for Xexex so far. That game needs more love.

[mojilove]

How do you feel about the rs34 sequels? I'm not in a position to buy them and evaluate them myself, but the original Radirgy and Karous is quickly climbing the ranks of my fav caravan games ever.

I like them a lot, personally. Radirgy Swag is very simple in concept but it really pulled me in, and I enjoyed the puzzle of figuring out how to get into the endless mode (I burned myself out trying to score in it and I haven't returned to it for years though). Illvelo Swamp was a shock to the system with its initially confusing dual-stick controls where you move the modules independently from the ship, and then Happy Together shook up the formula again. I think Radirgy 2 is the pinnacle of their work after becoming RS34 - murasame (the "new" ship) is such a joy to use.

All of the new games are structured so that you need to play the game multiple times to be able to get to the TLB or the optimal mode for scoring, so they have a different approach compared to the OG arcade games. Still, I enjoy both the old and new games. I have really warmed up to OG Karous after playing it more - I love the precision it demands in order to level up quickly, and I really love how powerful the sword is once you level it up. Illvelo is still my favourite out of the arcade games - it's so chaotic.

[Angry Hina]

Guys, this is the year. Let's do this.

I havent seen 25 pts from your side

[Faith]

Best thing about this voting actually... is to see everyone else votes!!~

Quite interesting! Definitely will take time to see what to play for rest of year... since have some strong recommendations which have never heard before!!~ And yes, even though Faith super horribly bad at hori STG... maybe get some courage for Thunder Force III some day :p

[Steven]

Thunder Force III is insanely easy on its default difficulty. Gotta watch out on that rock stage, but otherwise you'll almost certainly no miss it within your first 4 or 5 times playing it. I certainly did and that was the first shooter that I ever 1CCed. Nice game, though, and you can always turn up the difficulty if you find the default too easy.

[professor ganson]

My lists have always been skewed to what has received a console release because I seldom use emulation or PCBs. The case that has been most worrisome to me in this regard is Toaplan. I've always been biased to the games that received excellent ports like Twin Cobra (PS1). Now suddenly I have access to decent ports for all their shooters, and I'm overwhelmed.

The problem is compounded by the fact that games like Tatsujin are hard to get a good sense of in a short period of time. I usually like to be able to get to the third or fourth stage of a shmup before I pass judgment, and I'm too old and slow to do that efficiently. (Not to mention I have precious little gaming time.)

I'm in the same boat with some Dangun Feveron, which I only just got around to downloading on the PlayStation. So, this list building is definitely a work in progress.

One solution: supplement my playing with youtube viewing, making predictions about what would likely make my list under more ideal circumstances. That feels off as a strategy, and yet the list might end up being more in line with my overall values.

[copy-paster]

Probably the biggest surprise for my current vote is when I put Cave games on the lower ranking unlike the previous one for years. I still like DOJ Ketsui Mushi DDP but as I grew older I've realized classic/dad shmups are my realer interest than bullet hell ones, took me a long while to figure this one.

I also put Darius Gaiden higher than G-Darius this time, more stage count and godlike art direction makes up for it the more I play it. Devil Blade Reboot and Andro Dunos 2 were surprisingly fun I had a good time with them enough to put on the top 25 gang.

[Starfighter]

Keeping an eye on this as usual! I'm not seasoned enough to qualify (only having a solid understanding of around 40 of the titles mentioned in the voting thread) but still curious!

[To Far Away Times]

Guys, this is the year. Let's do this.

I havent seen 25 pts from your side

24 points ain't bad though.

[Acid]

Where's the Ginga Force love at?

[M.Knight]

Probably the biggest surprise for my current vote is when I put Cave games on the lower ranking unlike the previous one for years. I still like DOJ Ketsui Mushi DDP but as I grew older I've realized classic/dad shmups are my realer interest than bullet hell ones, took me a long while to figure this one.

Haha yeah that dramatic point drop in your vote for those games was like witnessing a very late coming out where everyone around you has already been suspecting it for a while Now that reflects your tastes more accurately, cool stuff!

milestone/rs34 games deserve a place in the pantheon

Absolutely! I've changed my voting pattern a bit to boost my top Milestone picks as much as possible compared to some previous years. For better or worse, voting always has a bit of meta-gaming where the voting mechanics influence the decisions, so I'm trying to make good use of them here.

[Whiskers]

• The more I play DDP, the more I’m convinced that it’s one of the greatest shmups ever created. Ergo, I bumped it up to the 1st place this year. Spoiler alert: it’s probably going to stay there for the rest of my life.
• There are also noticeably more 2hu on my current list. I’ll have to admit the reason is mainly for nostalgia. I used to be a hardcore 2hu-head, you see. Suddenly kinda missed the old times.
• Giga Wing 2 is still underrated, IMHO. More people need to play it.
• Non-bullet hell shmups were all given an equal value of 1 this time. I really wanted to fit in more. Alas, had to make tough decisions so I could submit a list with 25 entries.

[Lethe]

I have broken all my taboos and set up the bomb on Toaplan.

I have broke-broken all my taboos and added HMs, featuring super space sniper for great justice.

For better or worse, voting always has a bit of meta-gaming where the voting mechanics influence the decisions, so I'm trying to make good use of them here.

The maximum 20% proportion always seemed like a lot to me for ostensible lists of 25. Not many people take advantage of it though... I guess strategic voting makes sense when you can see everyone else's lists and which games seem to have an opportunity to work out. I'm just happy that ~85% of my picks have been on at least one shortlist by now. (And the ones that haven't are mostly very weird)

The more I play DDP, the more I’m convinced that it’s one of the greatest shmups ever created. Ergo, I bumped it up to the 1st place this year. Spoiler alert: it’s probably going to stay there for the rest of my life.

Why? Not trying to interrogate, I'm interested in where your growing appreciation is coming from.

[mycophobia]

DoDonPachi to me represents the end point of the pure shmups genre, it has basically everything you can do with it without any extraneous elements. Hishouzame represents the beginning, effectively "Shmups: The Game"; the genre stripped to the studs. As such they get first and second place respectively. The rest of the choices on my list range from "this is one of the greatest shmups ever made" to "this is definitely a shmup I played for more than one hour"

[Whiskers]

Why? Not trying to interrogate, I'm interested in where your growing appreciation is coming from.

It has exactly ZERO lolicons. That alone is a big plus in my book.

On a more serious note...

DoDonPachi to me represents the end point of the pure shmups genre, it has basically everything you can do with it without any extraneous elements.

This. I'm not too fond of complex mechanics in latter CAVE games. DDP introduced an interesting scoring system that kept you engaged without going overboard. It hit just the right spot.

In fact, complexity is the very reason I omitted Hellsinker from my list this year. I'll readily admit it's a masterpiece, I'll give it that. But the scoring system is way over my head. I'd prefer something more linear and predictable. Something that is easy to grasp without requiring me to put too much thought on it.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is nowadays, I favour simplicity.

CAVE also did a fantastic spritework in DDP. What a nice cherry on top, that.

[Faith]

It has exactly ZERO lolicons. That alone is a big plus in my book. :wink:

Surprise no Crimzon Clover mention from you then :p it seems, from what I see... many, many players give praise to CC just because of this. But, I feel, that is a bit "disservice" because the game is so, so, great on own and other merits >.<!~ But, personally... I like many kinds of styles in STG... and... it is what I feel make the genre so great. You can have realistic ship, crazy futuristic looking ship, ship pilot by man, ship pilot by anime girl, or just anime girl magically flying and floating... many, many animals... or even just flying hotdog... which shoots more hotdogs haha >.<!~

[Steven]

even just flying hotdog... which shoots more hotdogs haha >.<!~

You can't imagine how disappointed I was when I learned of Hotdog Storm and then found out that this exact description is not what the game is.

CAVE also did a fantastic spritework in DDP. What a nice cherry on top, that.

That would have mostly been Ogihara Naoki, Toaplan's 2nd best artist, who also worked on Slap Fight, Hishouzame, Kyuukyoku Tiger (among other things, he drew the helicopter on the title screen for this), Tatsujin (he was lead graphics dude on this), Zero Wing, Out Zone (split 50/50 with Toaplan's greatest artist, Hayashi Miho), Tatsujin Ou (he was probably the most senior graphics dude on this game and therefore probably would have been the lead graphics dude), DT7, DonPachi, and Dangun Feveron. Pretty sure he worked on Get Star too, but I don't remember.

He was also the one who drew this glorious flyer for Kyuukyoku Tiger

Spoiler

You'll see him referred to and even sometimes credited in games as Ogiwara Naoki often, but his real name is Ogihara.

[Angry Hina]

Whos the best? Toshiaki Ota? Do you know what exactly he has done as well as well? Thx btw for the details. That mid 80s Toaplan Staff switched to Cave as well wasnt clear to me.

[Lethe]

In fact, complexity is the very reason I omitted Hellsinker from my list this year. I'll readily admit it's a masterpiece, I'll give it that. But the scoring system is way over my head. I'd prefer something more linear and predictable. Something that is easy to grasp without requiring me to put too much thought on it.

I was coincidentally thinking about this recently. A comparison I've seen a couple of times is to Devil May Cry, both are similar mutations of the arcade. In both cases you can survival cheese through everything, or abuse the system in rote ways, but doing either is missing the point. What the game really wants is for you to get in tune with its choreography. Making numbers go up is just a lubricator to using tools creatively, making a production out of it, working with the game instead of battling against it. Completely different experience to the straightforward here's your challenge, defeat it or else It's Time To Put In More Coins Man.

So I would describe the Hellsinker status quo as "there's no part where the correct strategy is to just shoot at things". The whole game is finding single-case solutions to an endless stream of novelties, that's deeply baked into the design scoring or no. I know of only about a dozen sickos total who've put effort into scoring, evidently being put off by it is the norm.

I'm curious about play-around runs, focusing on showing off the most fitting approach for each situation without worrying about the final score. Pursuing what the game intends you to do instead of what's optimal in reality. That would be much more digestible than scoreplay proper which always ends up being counterintuitive, or has outright dumb stuff like spinning circles around a helpless boss for 45 seconds graze milking.

even just flying hotdog... which shoots more hotdogs haha >.<!~

You can't imagine how disappointed I was when I learned of Hotdog Storm and then found out that this exact description is not what the game is.

The monkey's paw curls... your hotdog storm is in a loli game!

[Steven]

Whos the best? Toshiaki Ota? Do you know what exactly he has done as well as well? Thx btw for the details. That mid 80s Toaplan Staff switched to Cave as well wasnt clear to me.

Hayashi Miho is generally considered by the Toaplan staff to be the best artist at Toaplan. She only worked on 4 games: Zero Wing (don't know everything she did, but I know for sure she did the stage 7 boss, which is named Miporin after her), MD Zero Wing (she made the intro, including CATS), Out Zone (title screen art, half of the game's art including the player character sprites, and the instruction cards) and Dogyuun!! (almost everything in the game, with the other artists doing just a handful of things).

Ota Toshiaki was a programmer. I don't know everything he did, or even most of what he did, but I know he made Espial (this game is really fucking weird, but in a cool way) at Orca before be moved to Toaplan and did various things there, including Zero Wing.

Two of CAVE's founders were early/mid-80s Toaplanners: Takano Kenichi and Ogihara Naoki.

The monkey's paw curls... your hotdog storm is in a loli game!

lol

I suppose this goes well with the french fry shots from Gun Frontier, doesn't it?

This has nothing to do with any of this at all, but now that I think about it, why is it optional to capitalize the french part of french fries? English is such a weird nonsense language. I am amazed that anyone actually is able to learn it as a non-native language, especially given how many people whose first language is English completely suck ass at it.

[Whiskers]

Surprise no Crimzon Clover mention from you then :p

I’ve only ever played the doujin version of CC. Never touched the WI/WE version. Although from what I've seen, the latter appears to be a superior game in every conceivable way. I just think including the doujin version on the list would do a great disservice to this fine specimen.

This has nothing to do with any of this at all, but now that I think about it, why is it optional to capitalize the french part of french fries? English is such a weird nonsense language.

Here in the UK, we call them chips. Don’t lump us together with those crazy Muricans.

[Faith]

I just think including the doujin version on the list would do a great disservice to this fine specimen.

Funny thing is... original Doujin Crimzon Clover and Crimzon Clover WI/WE are considered as same game for voting >.<!~

>Combined list/Versions or releases purely counted together
>Crimzon Clover, Crimzon Clover: World Ignition, Crimzon Clover: World EXplosion Arrange

[Whiskers]

Funny thing is... original Doujin Crimzon Clover and Crimzon Clover WI/WE are considered as same game for voting >.<!~

>Combined list/Versions or releases purely counted together
>Crimzon Clover, Crimzon Clover: World Ignition, Crimzon Clover: World EXplosion Arrange

But I want to vote for CCWI.

[Sengoku Strider]

Remind me again why everyone seems to rank either DOJ or DDP tops, and DFK a distant third? I was playing them again last night and I came away thinking DFK was the easy standout.

This has nothing to do with any of this at all, but now that I think about it, why is it optional to capitalize the french part of french fries? English is such a weird nonsense language.

France is a proper noun (ie., something there's only one of); since the idea is they're done in the French julienne style, properly speaking when becoming an adjective it does take a capital in The King's English. But any given french fry is just one generic potato slice among many, it's far more associated with American burger culture than French cuisine, and it's an every day food staple in cities around the world, so it's understandable if it's slipped into being seen as a common adjective and taking the extra step to capitalize it feels odd. Languages are always living transforming things, grammar rules are ultimately just a snapshot in time.

[Whiskers]

Remind me again why everyone seems to rank either DOJ or DDP tops, and DFK a distant third? I was playing them again last night and I came away thinking DFK was the easy standout.

People thought DFK was too easy to be a DDP game. Hence, DOJ was dubbed as the king because apparently we’re all masochists here.

Speaking for myself, I was only half joking when I said I generally don’t like lolicons in my shmups. Sole exception would be Touhou. But I might be blinded by nostalgia in this case.

[mycophobia]

DFK is excessive in every way that DDP and even DOJ aren't. just way too much going on both mechanically and visually