Yuzo Koshiro is making new MD shmup.

[AGermanArtist]

I just think the image quality is sharper and more pleasant, the gadgets are interesting and the voicework and music isn't bitcrushed to absolute fuck. I also like the little text boxes for each weapon. I'd sooner pay extra to get something comparable, just not $1800 for the eXA cart and the h/ware to play it on.

[Necronom]

I just think the image quality is sharper and more pleasant, the gadgets are interesting and the voicework and music isn't bitcrushed to absolute fuck. I also like the little text boxes for each weapon. I'd sooner pay extra to get something comparable, just not $1800 for the eXA cart and the h/ware to play it on.

Seems the arcade version is also a proper PC-port and not just a rom in an emulator like the actual PC release...

[SuperPang]

Seems to me that most people’s complaints should be directed towards whoever ported it to PC. No reason they couldn’t have added improved audio and gadgets, or indeed their own arrange mode. Hardly Exa’s fault!

Sure, maybe Exa mode is great (I haven’t played it yet), but people calling it the definitive version are talking bollocks. The MD version is the definitive version. You know, the one actually developed by Koshiro on the platform it was designed for.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

Seems to me that most people’s complaints should be directed towards whoever ported it to PC. No reason they couldn’t have added improved audio and gadgets, or indeed their own arrange mode. Hardly Exa’s fault!

Sure, maybe Exa mode is great (I haven’t played it yet), but people calling it the definitive version are talking bollocks. The MD version is the definitive version. You know, the one actually developed by Koshiro on the platform it was designed for.

Amen, brother. Hopefully, with the newly found bug within the MD Earthion rom by our own MintyThe Cat fellow shmupper, it can be fixed/improved upon in time for it's highly anticipated MD/Genesis release as originally intended for the 2026 timeline.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[D!!]

Seems to me that most people’s complaints should be directed towards whoever ported it to PC. No reason they couldn’t have added improved audio and gadgets, or indeed their own arrange mode. Hardly Exa’s fault!

Sure, maybe Exa mode is great (I haven’t played it yet), but people calling it the definitive version are talking bollocks. The MD version is the definitive version. You know, the one actually developed by Koshiro on the platform it was designed for.

Amen, brother. Hopefully, with the newly found bug within the MD Earthion rom by our own MintyThe Cat fellow shmupper, it can be fixed/improved upon in time for it's highly anticipated MD/Genesis release as originally intended for the 2026 timeline.

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

Huh? Which bug?

[Firehawke]

Seems to me that most people’s complaints should be directed towards whoever ported it to PC. No reason they couldn’t have added improved audio and gadgets, or indeed their own arrange mode. Hardly Exa’s fault!

Sure, maybe Exa mode is great (I haven’t played it yet), but people calling it the definitive version are talking bollocks. The MD version is the definitive version. You know, the one actually developed by Koshiro on the platform it was designed for.

It wasn't "ported to PC" in the first place. It's the MD version with an emulator and a custom data storage format to clump all the multiple ROM images together along. If it's not rewritten (you know, the thing the Exa guys seem to be doing?) from scratch then you're limited to what the Genesis hardware can do.

[SuperPang]

It wasn't "ported to PC" in the first place. It's the MD version with an emulator and a custom data storage format to clump all the multiple ROM images together along. If it's not rewritten (you know, the thing the Exa guys seem to be doing?) from scratch then you're limited to what the Genesis hardware can do.

So, the lazy but inexpensive route. Another business decision. If they'd put the extra work in and charged 40 bucks you can guarantee people would be complaining about the price. People are never satisfied.

As for the Exa hate - a couple of years ago people were berating them for releasing overpriced Steam games, now they're berating them for investing in a talented in-house development team. They can't win. Offering something exclusive (an essential component of a successful arcade business model) is "gatekeeping" and the price high, sell low business model that has always been is a rip off because it's "just a PC".

A niche MD shmup is released on every format under the sun and people are still not happy.

[Sumez]

As for the Exa hate - a couple of years ago people were berating them for releasing overpriced Steam games, now they're berating them for investing in a talented in-house development team. They can't win.

A couple of years ago people were berating them for creating an exclusive product for an artificially restricted audience, and now they are berating them for creating an exclusive product for an artificially restricted audience.

As a general rule - no, companies can't "win" as long as they rely on distinctly and intentionally consumer-hostile business models. You see the same tendencies with companies like Nintendo, etc. meeting hostility around the internet.
Of course they are free to do what they want, but when you do things like that, people are gonna voice dissatisfaction. That just goes without saying, really.

[SuperPang]

Arcades and arcade game collectors are their chosen consumer base. It is what it is. You can call that "artificially restricted" if it makes you feel better I guess.

[Necronom]

Seems to me that most people’s complaints should be directed towards whoever ported it to PC. No reason they couldn’t have added improved audio and gadgets, or indeed their own arrange mode. Hardly Exa’s fault!

Sure, maybe Exa mode is great (I haven’t played it yet), but people calling it the definitive version are talking bollocks. The MD version is the definitive version. You know, the one actually developed by Koshiro on the platform it was designed for.

Nobody blames Exa for the emu+ROM treatment. Players blame them for the fact that it's nearly impossible to play the Exa version because it's kept exclusive to a niche inside a niche. Such exclusivity should be timed.
The question about the definitive version is ultimately subjective but your logic is flawed. Imo the definitive version should be the best one, that's why M2's Ketsui deathtiny port is the definitive version of Ketsui and not the OG PCB. Collectors may disagree but from a technical POV this is the case.

[Bassa-Bassa]

It's an unnatural choice, at that, you can't deny it. It's not 1992 anymore. But I'm of the opinion that they're not the ones to blame.

that's why M2's Ketsui deathtiny port is the definitive version of Ketsui and not the OG PCB. Collectors may disagree but from a technical POV this is the case.

CRT usage and displaying at native resolution has to do more with the technical side than with collecting, though.

[Necronom]

It's an unnatural choice, at that, you can't deny it. It's not 1992 anymore. But I'm of the opinion that they're not the ones to blame.

that's why M2's Ketsui deathtiny port is the definitive version of Ketsui and not the OG PCB. Collectors may disagree but from a technical POV this is the case.

CRT usage and displaying at native resolution has to do more with the technical side than with collecting, though.

Not sure I understand your comment.
M2's Deathtiny can be displayed on a CRT if you really want to. Being a technical purist seeking the way it was displayed in 2003 is fine but you have to admit at a certain point that M2's offering is simply the superior product, therefore definitive version
Put in an analogy: I love my Star Wars Laserdisc, but damn 4K77 is the definitive version for sure

[Bassa-Bassa]

Deathtiny can't be displayed on a CRT at the native resolution (and refresh) of the original game, which destroys the point.

Poorly phrased, I'm afraid, but what I meant was indeed that a good CRT is the best possible display for Ketsui as M2 did not do the equivalent of 4k77's digital restoration, which would mean resampling the original CG assets for the resolution of modern displays (which likely that wouldn't really be Ketsui anymore, but that's another discussion).

[Necronom]

Deathtiny can't be displayed on a CRT at the native resolution (and refresh) of the original game, which destroys the point.

Poorly phrased, I'm afraid, but what I meant was indeed that a good CRT is the best possible display for Ketsui as M2 did not do the equivalent of 4k77's digital restoration, which would mean resampling the original CG assets for the resolution of modern displays (which likely that wouldn't really be Ketsui anymore, but that's another discussion).

Fair point, they did not.

[Jackoz]

A couple of years ago people were berating them for creating an exclusive product for an artificially restricted audience, and now they are berating them for creating an exclusive product for an artificially restricted audience.

As a general rule - no, companies can't "win" as long as they rely on distinctly and intentionally consumer-hostile business models. You see the same tendencies with companies like Nintendo, etc. meeting hostility around the internet.
Of course they are free to do what they want, but when you do things like that, people are gonna voice dissatisfaction. That just goes without saying, really.

Where were you when Cave and Raizing released this genre’s goats only in the arcade? Having lurked here for more than a decade I never saw any of the same hostility. Cave and 8ing are much larger companies than exa and are fully capable of doing ports. Where is your open boycott of these companies for not porting their games?

The foundation of shmups is the arcade. The super players and arcade culture we adore and the games have all come the arcade business model. Games like Katsui and Battle Garegga would have never been created without this model. People are fooling themselves if they think a 20 dollaroo title on Steam is getting the production values of a Cave game. Selling even 10000 copies is not paying for the people to make the games.

Now we have a company whom is extending the life of arcades with games that are of a high quality standard. Somehow the discourse is now how everyone feels slighted that the exa games are not available to them for free on the play device they own. You are not entitled to them. Games are a luxury not a necessity.

[Sumez]

Arcades and arcade game collectors are their chosen consumer base. It is what it is. You can call that "artificially restricted" if it makes you feel better I guess.

When you had the option to just not do that, that's obviously super artificial.

The restriction that everything they offer has to be exclusive to their platform may or may not be financially beneficial to them, but it sure as fuck is not beneficial to anyone else. No one could or should empathize with that

Where were you when Cave and Raizing released this genre’s goats only in the arcade?

Since when were Cave's games only released in the arcade?
At the time there was in fact a lot of frustration for a while that Ketsui was super elusive and most people couldn't play it, but obiously that was silenced when the X360 port finally came out.
But it made no sense to berate Cave themselves for it, because it was not their choice. The intent *was* there to port it to PS2. It's not like they just actively chose not to. Even in the early 00s, releasing the games on the hardware they did still made a lot of sense, which should be obvious considering how much trouble they had even making them play decently on PS2.
And by the X360 era they eventually got into a pretty steady pace of getting the ports out surprisingly soon after the arcade releases.

[Sweatlord_STG]

Arcades and arcade game collectors are their chosen consumer base. It is what it is. You can call that "artificially restricted" if it makes you feel better I guess.

When you had the option to just not do that, that's obviously super artificial.

The restriction that everything they offer has to be exclusive to their platform may or may not be financially beneficial to them, but it sure as fuck is not beneficial to anyone else. No one could or should empathize with that

Where were you when Cave and Raizing released this genre’s goats only in the arcade?

Since when were Cave's games only released in the arcade?

[Bassa-Bassa]

Where were you when Cave and Raizing released this genre’s goats only in the arcade? Having lurked here for more than a decade I never saw any of the same hostility. Cave and 8ing are much larger companies than exa and are fully capable of doing ports. Where is your open boycott of these companies for not porting their games?

As I see it, Cave and Raizing's goats belong to an era where where you still couldn't replicate the arcade games at home unless you went pretty hardcore. Even with the SAT and the DC there (though admittedly with the former's late years you could see how this was finally changing, yet you still needed hard-to-get gear for the full experience), the people assumed that powerful arcade hardware was needed to make a game shine, particularly a STG, as well as an arcade environment to get it tested enough for robust-enough mechanics. And ports of arcade games were an unlikely event, not a given. And there's the fact that arcades were still a thing even outside Japan.

All that changed.

The foundation of shmups is the arcade. The super players and arcade culture we adore and the games have all come the arcade business model. Games like Katsui and Battle Garegga would have never been created without this model. People are fooling themselves if they think a 20 dollaroo title on Steam is getting the production values of a Cave game. Selling even 10000 copies is not paying for the people to make the games.

Now we have a company whom is extending the life of arcades with games that are of a high quality standard.

Surely it's just me, but I'm still to see high quality if you're talking Exarcadia. Hopefully we can agree that rereleasing old games of high quality with tweaks and extras just can't count and doing the same with Steam games of questionable quality counts even less. There's always an interesting exception, but they're still too few and far from the high quality of the likes from peak Eighting or Cave. These companies also made their own custom hardware - Exarcadia is using freaking Windows PCs.

Neither the former is true - arcades are still around in Japan thanks to other type of machines and Exarcadia is just taking advantage of it. I'd hardly call their presence out of that country relevant. Maybe even anecdotal is still too generous.

[Jackoz]

Where were you when Cave and Raizing released this genre’s goats only in the arcade? Having lurked here for more than a decade I never saw any of the same hostility. Cave and 8ing are much larger companies than exa and are fully capable of doing ports. Where is your open boycott of these companies for not porting their games?

As I see it, Cave and Raizing's goats belong to an era where where you still couldn't replicate the arcade games at home unless you went pretty hardcore. Even with the SAT and the DC there (though admittedly with the former's late years you could see how this was finally changing, yet you still needed hard-to-get gear for the full experience), the people assumed that powerful arcade hardware was needed to make a game shine, particularly a STG, as well as an arcade environment to get it tested enough for robust-enough mechanics. And ports of arcade games were an unlikely event, not a given. And there's the fact that arcades were still a thing even outside Japan.

All that changed.

The foundation of shmups is the arcade. The super players and arcade culture we adore and the games have all come the arcade business model. Games like Katsui and Battle Garegga would have never been created without this model. People are fooling themselves if they think a 20 dollaroo title on Steam is getting the production values of a Cave game. Selling even 10000 copies is not paying for the people to make the games.

Now we have a company whom is extending the life of arcades with games that are of a high quality standard.

Surely it's just me, but I'm still to see high quality if you're talking Exarcadia. Hopefully we can agree that rereleasing old games of high quality with tweaks and extras just can't count and doing the same with Steam games of questionable quality counts even less. There's always an interesting exception, but they're still too few and far from the high quality of the likes from peak Eighting or Cave. These companies also made their own custom hardware - Exarcadia is using freaking Windows PCs.

Neither the former is true - arcades are still around in Japan thanks to other type of machines and Exarcadia is just taking advantage of it. I'd hardly call their presence out of that country relevant. Maybe even anecdotal is still too generous.

Mate no hardware Cave used has ever been high spec. Even the Windows PC(!) used for Desthsmiles 2 is off the shelf. If either company thought the console ports were worth their time, they would have done them. At the end of the day, it is a financial decision because they are companies who need to be profitable. Companies are not here to lose money for your convenience.

I reckon you have not been to Japan where the last remaining real arcades like the Mikados and Heys are all running exa cabinets because they are the only ones releasing games that are worth playing. Taito Nesica and Sega PRAS (hello Sonic Wings Rubbish) are both deserted islands. If you think the re-releases are just tweaks, then I do not think you even seriously play shmups. They may not be all original games like the heyday of Cave but they are damn good and play significantly different. Go ahead and tell me Air Gallet and Fixeight are just tweaks or Earthion isn’t a better game in the arcade. The Japanese players I’ve talked to and the many submissions on JHA are evidence enough.

[Jackoz]

Since when were Cave's games only released in the arcade?
At the time there was in fact a lot of frustration for a while that Ketsui was super elusive and most people couldn't play it, but obiously that was silenced when the X360 port finally came out.
But it made no sense to berate Cave themselves for it, because it was not their choice. The intent *was* there to port it to PS2. It's not like they just actively chose not to. Even in the early 00s, releasing the games on the hardware they did still made a lot of sense, which should be obvious considering how much trouble they had even making them play decently on PS2.
And by the X360 era they eventually got into a pretty steady pace of getting the ports out surprisingly soon after the arcade releases.

You have some selective memory and quoting there.
I clearly remember a long 5 years gap for Espgaluda 2. That is almost a console generation. Cave did not port games to console in the PS2 generation because it was not worth their time. Their “intent” was to make money in the arcade business and the growing mobile market. It may have been Arika’s “intent” to port but please do not confuse the two companies. If the financials made sense, every company would have put their shmups on console. These companies exist to make money. They are not here to do money losing ventures so you can conveniently play their products on the platform you may own.

[Sumez]

Go ahead and tell me Air Gallet and Fixeight are just tweaks or Earthion isn’t a better game in the arcade

Given it's nearly impossible to play those games, how would anyone be able to tell you that?
How can you possibly *defend* not allowing for more accessible ports of those revisions? You even claim they are better games, but you don't want people to be able to play them? What the hell.

[spmbx]

I just think the image quality is sharper and more pleasant, the gadgets are interesting and the voicework and music isn't bitcrushed to absolute fuck. I also like the little text boxes for each weapon. I'd sooner pay extra to get something comparable, just not $1800 for the eXA cart and the h/ware to play it on.

For me it really is part of the charm Maybe you're not into megadrive at all, or you just prefer to play games with modern improvements when you can, anyway not to start a discussion but out of interest i wonder which of these options you would prefer?
- Earthion on stock megadrive cart with current voices/samples/etc
- Earthion on a megadrive cart with custom FPGA allowing higher quality voices/samples/etc
- Fuck megadrive just give me PC

[AGermanArtist]

I had a Japanese MD before its release in the UK. I have a fondness for it and regularly use Ares, but the eXA version takes the MD version and improves upon it. I'd sooner have the eXA version for home use. The eXA certainly adds value, but I can't justify owning it. If I had unlimited pots of cash on the otherhand, I wouldn't be posting here. I'd have it installed in my yacht in Monte Carlo while I shop for a Seiko Credor.
As it stands, my sweet-spot would be $45 for the eXA version on PS5.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Mate no hardware Cave used has ever been high spec. Even the Windows PC(!) used for Desthsmiles 2 is off the shelf. If either company thought the console ports were worth their time, they would have done them. At the end of the day, it is a financial decision because they are companies who need to be profitable. Companies are not here to lose money for your convenience.

Never meant to say that Cave hardware was high spec, just that it was not a freaking Windows PC. I want to think that mentioning the implications of using a freaking Windows PC vs a PCB is not needed at this point.

Re: profitability of console ports. Not sure how that has to do with anything I said, but Cave did make all the ports except for Daioujou and Espgaluda (and PS1 DDP, but they (or Atlus) had picked the SAT for it). The main issue they had is that they needed a publisher as they never were into that. Nobody asked them for the rights to port Feveron, 'rade or Guwange (and Daioujou and 'galuda apparently came to the PS2 later only as a work of love), so likely it wasn't particularly profitable, but those were convoluted times for the STG genre as everybody was looking at the Western markets where this just didn't sell. But Ibara and Mushi for the PS2 were made by Cave themselves.

I reckon you have not been to Japan where the last remaining real arcades like the Mikados and Heys are all running exa cabinets because they are the only ones releasing games that are worth playing. Taito Nesica and Sega PRAS (hello Sonic Wings Rubbish) are both deserted islands.

Not been there for some years now, yeah. But if you only count the Mikados and the Heys as game centers then how are you not seeing it's a dying medium even in Japan.

If you think the re-releases are just tweaks, then I do not think you even seriously play shmups. They may not be all original games like the heyday of Cave but they are damn good and play significantly different. Go ahead and tell me Air Gallet and Fixeight are just tweaks or Earthion isn’t a better game in the arcade. The Japanese players I’ve talked to and the many submissions on JHA are evidence enough.

Again, never meant to say that the tweaks aren't good or significant as I've never played them, just that they're tweaks of old games. Of known stuff (which usually was already good). It was you the one comparing Exarcadia with Cave and Eighting - these offered almost always something actually new.

[PC Engine Fan X!]

I just think the image quality is sharper and more pleasant, the gadgets are interesting and the voicework and music isn't bitcrushed to absolute fuck. I also like the little text boxes for each weapon. I'd sooner pay extra to get something comparable, just not $1800 for the eXA cart and the h/ware to play it on.

For me it really is part of the charm Maybe you're not into megadrive at all, or you just prefer to play games with modern improvements when you can, anyway not to start a discussion but out of interest i wonder which of these options you would prefer?
- Earthion on stock megadrive cart with current voices/samples/etc
- Earthion on a megadrive cart with custom FPGA allowing higher quality voices/samples/etc
- Fuck megadrive just give me PC

Choice #1 of being able to play Earthion on a "plain vanilla" stock MD/Genesis cart would be the most affordable method of producing it for mass consumption whereas with choice #2, that would be an even better and more desirable variant MD/Genesis Earthion cart worth buying just to listen to the higher bit-rate voice-overs/BGM tunes/sound effects easily (thus making it a high-powered MD/Genesis cart on steroids, indeed, but at a higher initial MSRP price-point) -- it can easily be done/pulled off.

Ancient and Limited Run Games would wise to release both choice #1 and choice #2 together (but choice #2 would be, naturally, the ideal and preferred one to buy on "day one" of release by itself and disregard/skip manufacturing choice #1 entirely to give MD/Genesis gamers the best version "hands down").

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Skykid]

Apologies if this has been covered already but can anyone explain to me how to do the purge timing to kill the stage 7 midboss? I've tried countless times and looked at Jaimer's video and I can't get it to connect. Does it only work on Hotshot mode or something?

Many thanks

[SuperPang]

How can you possibly *defend* not allowing for more accessible ports of those revisions?

So how would this work exactly? Console port of the EXA Label games after 6-12 months? The arcade versions simply wouldn't sell if that was the case. Go and ask any op who forked out 5 figures for a recent Street Fighter or similar.

[Jackoz]

Apologies if this has been covered already but can anyone explain to me how to do the purge timing to kill the stage 7 midboss? I've tried countless times and looked at Jaimer's video and I can't get it to connect. Does it only work on Hotshot mode or something?

Many thanks

Stay at the bottom portion of the screen and wait for the center to materialize before purging.

[Jackoz]

Go ahead and tell me Air Gallet and Fixeight are just tweaks or Earthion isn’t a better game in the arcade

Given it's nearly impossible to play those games, how would anyone be able to tell you that?
How can you possibly *defend* not allowing for more accessible ports of those revisions? You even claim they are better games, but you don't want people to be able to play them? What the hell.

Mate you are putting words into my mouth.

I’m saying If the companies cannot see a financial return in doing these ports, they are not going to do them. You seem to want them to lose money or go bankrupt for your accessibility. This is the real world where people need to get paid for their work or any given company would go under and stop making games. Why does Cave not make the games we like anymore? They make more money on mobile and have to pay all of their employees salaries every month. Why does exa not make games on other platforms? I wager because it is not worth it. Have a quick look at Fixeight sales on Steam. Not even 500 copies sold….you reckon that was worth doing from the company’s perspective?

[Skykid]

Apologies if this has been covered already but can anyone explain to me how to do the purge timing to kill the stage 7 midboss? I've tried countless times and looked at Jaimer's video and I can't get it to connect. Does it only work on Hotshot mode or something?

Many thanks

Wait at the bottom portion of the screen and wait for the center to materialize before purging.

Ok got it. It wasn't what I thought. Since I move it onto my arcade machine my buttons were mismatched and I didn't have ABC lol. It kept auto purging and missing and I thought it was meant to be on a delay