Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch List)

[Sima Tuna]

I wanted to ask if anyone had played Vengeance Hunters yet. Good to hear it sounds legit. I should go see if Murphagator has any uploads for the game.

Metamorphic Force, Rastan III and Vengeance Hunters are all still on my to-buy list. I've been playing other kinds of games and also doing much less gaming in general.

[Durandal]

For those interested, I've written two guides on my new personal blog about all the possible versions to play SpikeOut on and how to install them, and a guide explaining the basics of SpikeOut's gameplay. I'll be making a second part for the latter explaining some of the more advanced concepts and level-specific strategies.

Hopefully it will be of any use to anyone interested in playing SpikeOut!

[Randorama]

Shameless self-promotion: the Double Dragon squib is up.

[velo]

1CC on Vengeance Hunters' default difficulty

Game looks great, sounds good, and is fun to play.

Seconded. Unique play style, interesting enemy designs, good pacing. Even better than Final Vendetta imo, and that was one of the best of recent years.

Here are the cheat codes, including a stage select, very nice to have:

Code: Select all

Cheats:
Start the game and be in a level and not in a cutscene. Do not try from a menu or the pause screen.
press in sequence.
Start-B-Y-X-A-Start (Xbox)
Start-B-D-C-A-Start (Neo Geo)
Start-O-Triangle-Square-X-Start (PS4/PS5)
Start-A-X-Y-B-Start (Switch)
THEN (Neo-Geo notation below...adjust for what controller you have):
- Press A for Version
- Press B for Big Damage
- Press C for Level Select
- Press D for Infinite Lives

You can turn off Big Damage and Infinite Lives by repeating the same input. 

Incidentally, Final Vendetta will be getting an update by the end of the year, which will add a playable character and purportedly fix some exploits (it really needs that): https://www.bitmapbureau.com/post/impor ... s-machines

Looks above average by Neo Geo belt scroller standards, but I would like to see higher numbers of weaker enemies, preferably in interesting combinations that require different strategies. Gunstar Heroes float juggling is not what I play belt scrollers for. At least there doesn't appear to be an i-frame dodge roll! The only major red flag here is requiring multiple hits to destroy item crates, which is an unforgivable sin.

Later levels on max difficulty get pretty hectic imo... not massive enemy mobs, but healthy enough for my taste. Infinite juggles are trivial to pull off, but the other guys won't stand around letting you do that. The spongey crates did annoy me a bit, and the character with an iframe dodge does feel overpowered (she'd probably be the top character anyway, she didn't need that on top of all her other BS).

I'm torn on the game. Graphics and visual feedback looks really excellent, which already elevates it over a lot of the genre.
The guy talking as he plays gives me an impression of a person who has thought a lot about the details of how it plays, which gives me quite a bit of faith in it. However, "Red flags" for me, is, as BurlyHeart points out as well, the lack of throws - throwcentric brawlers is what managed to get me into the genre, and instead you get two different punch buttons. I'm a simple guy, there's a reason I'm on a shmups forum. I don't know what to do with multiple attack buttons unless one of them is a bomb

He does say that there's usually nothing wrong with just spamming the same punch button though, but apparently he takes inspiration from "character action games". Maybe some people will enjoy that, but it's not for me. Those games tend to feel like they over-complicate basic combat systems for no clear reason other than appealing to people who want those things to be complex. Memorizing Bayonetta combos isn't my idea of fun. That said, I don't think this game looks much like those games.

I hear you and feel your pain, but this is not one of those games that's trying to do DMC as a belt scroller. Every character has the same 4 or 5 attack strings, they're all easy to execute, and the standard jab mash combo is by far the most generally useful. The others are more niche, and even after nabbing a max difficulty 1cc, I'm still feeling out how to apply them. I don't think they're useless, but you don't absolutely need them either. Big combos are easy to pull off. If the game has complex, tough-to-execute combos, I guess I missed them so far.

I don't miss the lack of a standard throw. The non-throw characters have other stuff to compensate and feel complete as they are. Grabs that are implemented as a separate command with a whiff animation feel overly weak to me in belt scrollers, and that does apply to the grapple character here... I kinda wish they'd gone with the standard walk-in grab for him. But his air throw makes up for it. Air throwing after a mash combo works a lot like the forward throw in certain Capcom games.

They actually successfully pulled off a lot of stuff that I usually look at as red flags. The bonus games are fun, the gimmicky bosses are fun. The enemies that explode on death are fun, since the explosions also affect the bad guys, so you can use that offensively. Amazingly, enemies with superarmor are fun! You can break superarmor with certain attacks, so you can preemptively counter slow, heavy attacks instead of dodging and countering.

[Sima Tuna]

Incidentally, Final Vendetta will be getting an update by the end of the year, which will add a playable character and purportedly fix some exploits

Spoiler

New playable character for an already amazing beat em up? Sounds excellent! One of the few good things about modern game production is you can take a fucking awesome arcade game and then patch it to include new content like extra characters or improved balance.

Imagine if Streets of Rage 2 had been able to do that on the Genny. "Oh yeah, we patched SoR 2 and added a new SoR2 version of Adam in."

Final Vendetta isn't quite SoR2 level, but it's up there. I'd rank it just below Fight 'n' Rage for new-school beat em ups, but above SoR 4. I imagine most people would rank FnR lower and SoR4 higher, but each have their own opinions. Final Vendetta feels very faithful to arcade beat em up design, which I prefer over some of the things SoR 4 does that seem more console or new-school design oriented. Final Vendetta isn't nearly as overlong as FnR or SoR4 and it doesn't do the whole "one new gimmick/new enemy per level and no more" thing that SoR4 is guilty of. Final Vendetta is willing to throw you into the shit by level 2 or level 3.

Spoiler

As far as throw-centric beat em up design goes, I have to agree there. I think I've rambled in the past about how beat em ups are like jousting. It's jousting with hitboxes vs the enemy hitboxes. You want the main character to be a little overpowered because this isn't a 1vs1 fighting game. So you need some options and ways to handle high pressure situations. Typically, long-range enemies are handled by either axis manipulation or jump attacks. Mid-range enemies fall to jabs and standard combos. And then enemies who get to close are grabbed and used as ammo to sling against enemy crowds. Of course, if all else fails, the player can use a desperation attack/superjoy (if the game allows this.)

Well, if you take away grabs, you remove the player's answer for enemies that are too close. Jab hitboxes get really fiddly (in basically every bmup I ever played) when an enemy is standing right on top of you and walking around on in your sprite. There's not really a foolproof way to prevent enemies from doing this. Many enemies have it in their programming to set up this situation anyway, but even if they don't-you are inevitably going to be swarmed while learning a beat em up. You can superjoy if you have the resource for it. If the game doesn't have superjoys though or you don't have the resource, you're kinda fucked without grabs. You can't get the enemy off you because he keeps walking in your sprite and your jab hitbox doesn't overlap his because of how he's moving. If you do stop to jab him, a different guy might hit you from behind. Grabs provide an elegant solution to the whole problem. Of course, grabs are also great for games that have armored enemies (who are not grab immune) or other kinds of enemy types that are vulnerable to grabbing. Grab pummeling is usually a high damage option and it gives great flexibility for responding to threats while beating up on a boss.

Grabs just add so much depth to the game and walk-to-grab is such an elegant solution to the problem (of few buttons + trying to measure up a grab manually) that it's baffling to me anyone would remove the feature.

[BrianC]

New playable character for an already amazing beat em up? Sounds excellent! One of the few good things about modern game production is you can take a fucking awesome arcade game and then patch it to include new content like extra characters or improved balance.

Imagine if Streets of Rage 2 had been able to do that on the Genny. "Oh yeah, we patched SoR 2 and added a new SoR2 version of Adam in."

They kind of did, but not officially. There are hacks that add all sorts of characters, some of them very elaborate. Most work on real hardware too.

[Sumez]

New playable character for an already amazing beat em up? Sounds excellent! One of the few good things about modern game production is you can take a fucking awesome arcade game and then patch it to include new content like extra characters or improved balance.

Imagine if Streets of Rage 2 had been able to do that on the Genny. "Oh yeah, we patched SoR 2 and added a new SoR2 version of Adam in."

Probably somewhat irrational and a bit of a hot take, but I'm actually not a fan of the idea.
I really don't like buying a game and then suddenly not owning the finished version of it. This has already been common practice with modern games for a long time now, and Streets of Rage 4 is in fact a good example of a game that took a lot of post-release fine tuning to really become as good as it would be. While of course it's "good" that devs can do that, I really don't like how it entices releasing something unfinished - which let's face it, is absolutely happening, and probably more often than not at this point.

If you really feel like adding a brand new mode or something to a game, I'm fine with making that a new release. And honestly, I haven't even tried all the playable characters that SOR2 does make available to you yet.

Anyway, the update to Final Vendetta coincides with the (expectedly horribly delayed) Neo Geo release, which will feature the same improvements. I preordered that cartridge an eternity ago, so hopefully they will make no new major alterations to the game after it comes out. IIRC there's a way to patch Xeno Crisis, so I guess it could be supported, but eh.

[velo]

Grabs just add so much depth to the game and walk-to-grab is such an elegant solution to the problem (of few buttons + trying to measure up a grab manually) that it's baffling to me anyone would remove the feature.

To me it just depends. Even Capcom didn't put throws in every game. There are also games/instances where grabbing by accident can occasionally cause problems. I can live without it in VH. I haven't quite figured out Golem's throw game yet, but he's the character I've played with the least.

Probably somewhat irrational and a bit of a hot take, but I'm actually not a fan of the idea.
I really don't like buying a game and then suddenly not owning the finished version of it. This has already been common practice with modern games for a long time now, and Streets of Rage 4 is in fact a good example of a game that took a lot of post-release fine tuning to really become as good as it would be. While of course it's "good" that devs can do that, I really don't like how it entices releasing something unfinished - which let's face it, is absolutely happening, and probably more often than not at this point.

On the other hand, there are 30 year old games that would greatly benefit from minor tweaks that they will never (officially) get. I think post-release patches have been a net positive for for beat em ups in particular, giving us improvements to games that already felt complete on release. Might be nice if they waited for the dust to settle before manufacturing physicals, but I know that's not likely.

Actually, I would single out Final Vendetta as the beat em up that most desperately needs patching, and I think I've mentioned that before ITT. My enthusiasm for the game dropped a bit when I figured out that Claire can stick to spamming two moves and still be the strongest character in the game by far. There's a lot of stuff I wish they'd tweak or rebalance, but Claire feels like she wasn't properly tested before release. I'm interested to see how far the changes go.

[Sima Tuna]

I bought Double Dragon Gaiden during the current switch sale. I'm not impressed, so I'll just give some basic first impressions. I don't know if I'll play it more.

In theory, I should love DDG. It has multiple characters, attractive pixel art, an open mission select structure and amazing music. But I actually kinda hate it. Why? It's always down to gameplay.

Nailing the feel of a beat em up is the most essential first step. If a game feels bad to play, then nothing else matters. But if a game feels good to play, then that's really all you need. Mutation Nation isn't an amazing beat em up, but it feels good to play. The controls are snappy and the movesets feel good to pull off. You can get completely fucked if an enemy starts hitting you, and there are some weird and jank elements (like no true superjoys) but the game fundamentally works.

I always say this, but a beat em up is like a fencing match between hitboxes. The player needs to be a little bit overpowered because you're fighting a lot of enemies at once. If the player is overtuned too far into the "weak and shit" category, fights feel unfair and bad to play. Unfairness itself isn't the problem (cue Final Fight's "fuck around and find out" final stage,) but the "feeling bad to play" issue is terminal.

All of this to say Double Dragon Gaiden feels like absolute wank garbage asscheeks to play. I'll break down why:

1) Attacks are way too committal:

Attacks stick you in place like a stone. You can't really shimmy or hit and move, because even the most basic jab locks you into position. The recovery frames after a basic 3-hit combo are insane. You *can* dash cancel out of combos, but this only helps you offensively. I'll explain more later. Fast characters feel incredibly slow in practice and slow characters feel like slugs. Enemy groups have a field day with you whenever you stop moving in this game, and sometimes even when you don't stop moving. Because your characters are just too slow to react to what they do.

2) Few defensive options:

In Final Fight, if you're getting overwhelmed by enemies, you can superjoy out of their attacks and gain some breathing room. Gaiden doesn't believe in this. Superjoys, as far as I can tell, have no i-frames at all. Perhaps they have a couple at the exact point of impact, but the animation itself has none. You can be knocked out of a superjoy, despite that it takes meter to use one. So this pretty much makes superjoys a thing you use to cap off combos and get the hotdog bonus from. A slow-ass character like Abobo can't really do anything about long-ranged, faster characters attacking him. He can't preempt them because he's too slow and attacking locks him into place. And he can't defensively or preemptively superjoy because he'll get knocked out of it.

3) Boss shenanigans:

Bosses can get out of your combo whenever they want. I have this on authority from someone who has played the game much more than me. It's also born out by my own playtime. Once the boss has decided you've hit him enough, he's going to get out of your combo and probably wallop you one that you can't avoid (because committal attacks.)

4) Fucking annoying stage design:

The level select at the start? Good idea. Some of the most obnoxious trap platforming since the NES DD games? Bad idea. Needing to walk back and forth through a spike maze in low light conditions because the enemies I have to kill are on opposite ends of the maze and refuse to walk over to me is just shitty design. To need to do this a dozen goddamn times before the area is clear and I'm allowed to progress is player punishment. You will see everyone who plays Gaiden recommends to take stages in certain orders so you can avoid the shittiest of the platforming/trap puzzles. As is always the case with DD and platforming, the engine isn't made for it and it doesn't work. But I had more fun platforming in Double Dragon 4 than this game.

5) Incomplete movesets:

There are lots of characters, but each feels incomplete. Technos beat em ups are 2-attack brawlers. You typically have a punch button and a kick button. You may also have other modifiers or dedicated buttons in the newer games, so I'm not faulting Gaiden for having a run button. I will fault them for the grab button, but only because the animation is slow and shitty. Yes, I know you can run into a grab but the hit detection on it feels weird.

Anyway, what I mean by incomplete movesets is characters like Bimmy and Jammy can't do half of what they can in DD1 NES or DD4. Or hell, even in a game like River City Ransom. Each character in Gaiden has one striking combo. This means one of the twins has all the kicks and one of them has all the punches. It sucks. No more can you freely combo jabs into a crescent kick at the head, or kicks into a super uppercut. With grab on its own button, you can combo strike into grab into more strikes or a throw, but this all feels very slow to pull off in practice and I don't think you get many i-frames... You might get some at the moment when you release the throw, but grab itself is vulnerable as hell. I'm not arguing that Gaiden should use walk-to-grab. Technos brawlers are their own beasts. And I'm aware the newer Kunio games have a grab button... But I think that's a mistake in those games too. The best use of grab in Technos-style beat em ups is probably found in Vendetta or DD NES. There's a little bit of imprecision but direction+button+context is a better solution than being rooted in place to a slow grappling animation that plays even on a whiff.

6) Enemy attacks jail

So, the whole "no invincible superjoys" issue comes into play here. It creates a rocket launcher tag scenario, because you can dash cancel a combo until an enemy is dead (assuming they aren't a boss who can break out.) But you only have one tool to get out of an enemy combo, which is to tag. Tagging uses your meter like a superjoy would, but it doesn't give you anything other than a chance to maybe avoid the rest of the combo. I say "maybe" because I have tagged and still been caught by the same motherhumping enemy doing the same combo I tried to tag out of.

Every time I have died in this game, it was because I went from full health to dead in an instant or full health to dead in nearly an instant. I'd get caught in a combo and the combo would just go forever and I'd be dead. You can tag but you can still get caught coming in from the tag.

Oh yeah, and you have no i-frames on the ground at all, despite being unable to move or do anything. Enemies can easily setplay you with a knockdown and then just spamming attacks on you while you try to get up. Have fun.

I noticed a patch note said the devs finally added "a free full-screen knockdown when the player is spawning in after using a life." The fact the game shipped without this (allowing even more AI setplay nonsense) makes me laugh. Just... Really basic stuff not being in the game gives me the impression the devs either don't like the same kind of beat em ups I do or don't share a similar understanding to what makes one good.


Anyway, that's enough bitching from me. The game looks good and sounds good but I do not like the way it feels to play. I would genuinely put Double Dragon 4 far above this in terms of the quality of its gameplay. Yes, the game is ugly as fuck, sounds bad, looks like it cost $5 to make and uses NES sprites, but it has depth and feels snappy and fun to control.

Double Dragon Gaiden: Rise of the Dragons gets a "miss me with that shit"/10 from me. I'll probably try out Shredder's Revenge tonight, especially since I saw dlc Usagi Yojimbo is an option. Stan Sakai ftw.

Edit: I went back to the game to check what makes the game feel so cludgy and bad. I think much of it can be taken down to the extreme recovery frames on all attacks plus the excessively slow vertical movement. Left/Right movement is not the worst, and you can dash to make it better. But up/down movement is considerably slower than left/right and this just hurts, man.

[it290]

Double Dragon has to have the worst hit:miss ratio of any long-running franchise in gaming history.

[Sima Tuna]

Double Dragon has to have the worst hit:miss ratio of any long-running franchise in gaming history.

Not as bad as what people think.

Double Dragon Arcade is historically important but was sadly ruined by excessive slowdown.

Double Dragon 2 Arcade is supposed to be fine (ask BIL.)

Double Dragon Famicom is a fucking masterpiece.

Double Dragon 2 Famicom is pretty alright.

Double Dragon 3 Famicom is a brutally punishing kusogepiece.

Double Dragon 3 Arcade is an abortion.

Double Dragon 4 is very solid imo.

Double Dragon Advance is the best game in the franchise.

Super Double Dragon, haven't played but it looks ok.

Neon, haven't played. Took an instant dislike to what I have seen though.

Gaiden sucks.

So Double Dragon isn't a golden franchise or anything, but there are some solid games in there. I think the big problem with the franchise is it keeps changing hands and the people who make DD games end up making them for the fucking memes and don't understand the core game design of Technos beat em ups. So they just make "their own thing" but slap the DD license on it. Instead of looking at Double Dragon Famicom, Advance or even Arcade to understand how you make a DD game.

Spoiler

Gaiden has a lot of the superficial pieces in place (setting, characters, music) but falls flat on the basic building blocks. One of the standard strategies in a technos brawler is vertical shifting up and down while kicking/punching so you can slide into an offensive. You move so slow in Gaiden and enemies start their attacks from so far away this doesn't seem to work at all. Disregarding my entire long rambling post above, if the devs fixed the vertical movement speed alone then the game would be dramatically more playable. I've seen them defending the speed issue/delay on steam forums as "more deliberate." That's fine... For the attacks. But movement shouldn't be committal. With such more ability to maneuver, you can get setplay'd very easily.

[it290]

When you put it like that it doesn't sound bad, although DD3 in the arcades at the time was a historical travesty. I recall seeing it after having played the first two games and me and my friends were all like — WTF is this shit. They basically invented microtransactions, for chrissake.

Neon is bad. SDD I want to like but I just can't really get into the gameplay. DD4... meh. Revive I am not optimistic about. Agreed about DDA. DD Famicom... is ok but I think the SMS version is the better port.

I will say that DDII for the PCE-CD is a nice offshoot—basically takes the arcade's sensibilities and adds a little splash of spice from the Famicom ver.

[1KMS]

Meanwhile, Double Dragon Revive is looking like Dynamite Deka 2 + Jedi Power Battles.
https://youtu.be/JyhbM6DtET8

[Mortificator]

Gaiden's my third-favorite DD. *shrugs* I think I rated it lower than II arcade when I first posted about it but that was before they added SONNY

My vote for worst hit:miss ratio? Wolfenstein