Beat 'em Ups (Including Switch List)

[Sima Tuna]

I wanted to ask if anyone had played Vengeance Hunters yet. Good to hear it sounds legit. I should go see if Murphagator has any uploads for the game.

Metamorphic Force, Rastan III and Vengeance Hunters are all still on my to-buy list. I've been playing other kinds of games and also doing much less gaming in general.

[Durandal]

For those interested, I've written two guides on my new personal blog about all the possible versions to play SpikeOut on and how to install them, and a guide explaining the basics of SpikeOut's gameplay. I'll be making a second part for the latter explaining some of the more advanced concepts and level-specific strategies.

Hopefully it will be of any use to anyone interested in playing SpikeOut!

[Randorama]

Shameless self-promotion: the Double Dragon squib is up.

[velo]

1CC on Vengeance Hunters' default difficulty

Game looks great, sounds good, and is fun to play.

Seconded. Unique play style, interesting enemy designs, good pacing. Even better than Final Vendetta imo, and that was one of the best of recent years.

Here are the cheat codes, including a stage select, very nice to have:

Code: Select all

Cheats:
Start the game and be in a level and not in a cutscene. Do not try from a menu or the pause screen.
press in sequence.
Start-B-Y-X-A-Start (Xbox)
Start-B-D-C-A-Start (Neo Geo)
Start-O-Triangle-Square-X-Start (PS4/PS5)
Start-A-X-Y-B-Start (Switch)
THEN (Neo-Geo notation below...adjust for what controller you have):
- Press A for Version
- Press B for Big Damage
- Press C for Level Select
- Press D for Infinite Lives

You can turn off Big Damage and Infinite Lives by repeating the same input. 

Incidentally, Final Vendetta will be getting an update by the end of the year, which will add a playable character and purportedly fix some exploits (it really needs that): https://www.bitmapbureau.com/post/impor ... s-machines

Looks above average by Neo Geo belt scroller standards, but I would like to see higher numbers of weaker enemies, preferably in interesting combinations that require different strategies. Gunstar Heroes float juggling is not what I play belt scrollers for. At least there doesn't appear to be an i-frame dodge roll! The only major red flag here is requiring multiple hits to destroy item crates, which is an unforgivable sin.

Later levels on max difficulty get pretty hectic imo... not massive enemy mobs, but healthy enough for my taste. Infinite juggles are trivial to pull off, but the other guys won't stand around letting you do that. The spongey crates did annoy me a bit, and the character with an iframe dodge does feel overpowered (she'd probably be the top character anyway, she didn't need that on top of all her other BS).

I'm torn on the game. Graphics and visual feedback looks really excellent, which already elevates it over a lot of the genre.
The guy talking as he plays gives me an impression of a person who has thought a lot about the details of how it plays, which gives me quite a bit of faith in it. However, "Red flags" for me, is, as BurlyHeart points out as well, the lack of throws - throwcentric brawlers is what managed to get me into the genre, and instead you get two different punch buttons. I'm a simple guy, there's a reason I'm on a shmups forum. I don't know what to do with multiple attack buttons unless one of them is a bomb

He does say that there's usually nothing wrong with just spamming the same punch button though, but apparently he takes inspiration from "character action games". Maybe some people will enjoy that, but it's not for me. Those games tend to feel like they over-complicate basic combat systems for no clear reason other than appealing to people who want those things to be complex. Memorizing Bayonetta combos isn't my idea of fun. That said, I don't think this game looks much like those games.

I hear you and feel your pain, but this is not one of those games that's trying to do DMC as a belt scroller. Every character has the same 4 or 5 attack strings, they're all easy to execute, and the standard jab mash combo is by far the most generally useful. The others are more niche, and even after nabbing a max difficulty 1cc, I'm still feeling out how to apply them. I don't think they're useless, but you don't absolutely need them either. Big combos are easy to pull off. If the game has complex, tough-to-execute combos, I guess I missed them so far.

I don't miss the lack of a standard throw. The non-throw characters have other stuff to compensate and feel complete as they are. Grabs that are implemented as a separate command with a whiff animation feel overly weak to me in belt scrollers, and that does apply to the grapple character here... I kinda wish they'd gone with the standard walk-in grab for him. But his air throw makes up for it. Air throwing after a mash combo works a lot like the forward throw in certain Capcom games.

They actually successfully pulled off a lot of stuff that I usually look at as red flags. The bonus games are fun, the gimmicky bosses are fun. The enemies that explode on death are fun, since the explosions also affect the bad guys, so you can use that offensively. Amazingly, enemies with superarmor are fun! You can break superarmor with certain attacks, so you can preemptively counter slow, heavy attacks instead of dodging and countering.

[Sima Tuna]

Incidentally, Final Vendetta will be getting an update by the end of the year, which will add a playable character and purportedly fix some exploits

Spoiler

New playable character for an already amazing beat em up? Sounds excellent! One of the few good things about modern game production is you can take a fucking awesome arcade game and then patch it to include new content like extra characters or improved balance.

Imagine if Streets of Rage 2 had been able to do that on the Genny. "Oh yeah, we patched SoR 2 and added a new SoR2 version of Adam in."

Final Vendetta isn't quite SoR2 level, but it's up there. I'd rank it just below Fight 'n' Rage for new-school beat em ups, but above SoR 4. I imagine most people would rank FnR lower and SoR4 higher, but each have their own opinions. Final Vendetta feels very faithful to arcade beat em up design, which I prefer over some of the things SoR 4 does that seem more console or new-school design oriented. Final Vendetta isn't nearly as overlong as FnR or SoR4 and it doesn't do the whole "one new gimmick/new enemy per level and no more" thing that SoR4 is guilty of. Final Vendetta is willing to throw you into the shit by level 2 or level 3.

Spoiler

As far as throw-centric beat em up design goes, I have to agree there. I think I've rambled in the past about how beat em ups are like jousting. It's jousting with hitboxes vs the enemy hitboxes. You want the main character to be a little overpowered because this isn't a 1vs1 fighting game. So you need some options and ways to handle high pressure situations. Typically, long-range enemies are handled by either axis manipulation or jump attacks. Mid-range enemies fall to jabs and standard combos. And then enemies who get to close are grabbed and used as ammo to sling against enemy crowds. Of course, if all else fails, the player can use a desperation attack/superjoy (if the game allows this.)

Well, if you take away grabs, you remove the player's answer for enemies that are too close. Jab hitboxes get really fiddly (in basically every bmup I ever played) when an enemy is standing right on top of you and walking around on in your sprite. There's not really a foolproof way to prevent enemies from doing this. Many enemies have it in their programming to set up this situation anyway, but even if they don't-you are inevitably going to be swarmed while learning a beat em up. You can superjoy if you have the resource for it. If the game doesn't have superjoys though or you don't have the resource, you're kinda fucked without grabs. You can't get the enemy off you because he keeps walking in your sprite and your jab hitbox doesn't overlap his because of how he's moving. If you do stop to jab him, a different guy might hit you from behind. Grabs provide an elegant solution to the whole problem. Of course, grabs are also great for games that have armored enemies (who are not grab immune) or other kinds of enemy types that are vulnerable to grabbing. Grab pummeling is usually a high damage option and it gives great flexibility for responding to threats while beating up on a boss.

Grabs just add so much depth to the game and walk-to-grab is such an elegant solution to the problem (of few buttons + trying to measure up a grab manually) that it's baffling to me anyone would remove the feature.

[BrianC]

New playable character for an already amazing beat em up? Sounds excellent! One of the few good things about modern game production is you can take a fucking awesome arcade game and then patch it to include new content like extra characters or improved balance.

Imagine if Streets of Rage 2 had been able to do that on the Genny. "Oh yeah, we patched SoR 2 and added a new SoR2 version of Adam in."

They kind of did, but not officially. There are hacks that add all sorts of characters, some of them very elaborate. Most work on real hardware too.

[Sumez]

New playable character for an already amazing beat em up? Sounds excellent! One of the few good things about modern game production is you can take a fucking awesome arcade game and then patch it to include new content like extra characters or improved balance.

Imagine if Streets of Rage 2 had been able to do that on the Genny. "Oh yeah, we patched SoR 2 and added a new SoR2 version of Adam in."

Probably somewhat irrational and a bit of a hot take, but I'm actually not a fan of the idea.
I really don't like buying a game and then suddenly not owning the finished version of it. This has already been common practice with modern games for a long time now, and Streets of Rage 4 is in fact a good example of a game that took a lot of post-release fine tuning to really become as good as it would be. While of course it's "good" that devs can do that, I really don't like how it entices releasing something unfinished - which let's face it, is absolutely happening, and probably more often than not at this point.

If you really feel like adding a brand new mode or something to a game, I'm fine with making that a new release. And honestly, I haven't even tried all the playable characters that SOR2 does make available to you yet.

Anyway, the update to Final Vendetta coincides with the (expectedly horribly delayed) Neo Geo release, which will feature the same improvements. I preordered that cartridge an eternity ago, so hopefully they will make no new major alterations to the game after it comes out. IIRC there's a way to patch Xeno Crisis, so I guess it could be supported, but eh.

[velo]

Grabs just add so much depth to the game and walk-to-grab is such an elegant solution to the problem (of few buttons + trying to measure up a grab manually) that it's baffling to me anyone would remove the feature.

To me it just depends. Even Capcom didn't put throws in every game. There are also games/instances where grabbing by accident can occasionally cause problems. I can live without it in VH. I haven't quite figured out Golem's throw game yet, but he's the character I've played with the least.

Probably somewhat irrational and a bit of a hot take, but I'm actually not a fan of the idea.
I really don't like buying a game and then suddenly not owning the finished version of it. This has already been common practice with modern games for a long time now, and Streets of Rage 4 is in fact a good example of a game that took a lot of post-release fine tuning to really become as good as it would be. While of course it's "good" that devs can do that, I really don't like how it entices releasing something unfinished - which let's face it, is absolutely happening, and probably more often than not at this point.

On the other hand, there are 30 year old games that would greatly benefit from minor tweaks that they will never (officially) get. I think post-release patches have been a net positive for for beat em ups in particular, giving us improvements to games that already felt complete on release. Might be nice if they waited for the dust to settle before manufacturing physicals, but I know that's not likely.

Actually, I would single out Final Vendetta as the beat em up that most desperately needs patching, and I think I've mentioned that before ITT. My enthusiasm for the game dropped a bit when I figured out that Claire can stick to spamming two moves and still be the strongest character in the game by far. There's a lot of stuff I wish they'd tweak or rebalance, but Claire feels like she wasn't properly tested before release. I'm interested to see how far the changes go.