Wolf Fang/Skull Fang Saturn Tribute

[hamfighterx]

Nobody mentioned here that the SAT ports got additional lag vs the PCB.

Like four posts up it was in Arino’s list

It's also the entire point of the large quote from GSK in my reply halfway down page 1.

I have never played this City Connection version of SS Batsugun in particular, but I have had enough experience with the "efforts" of City Connection to dislike them for good reasons. Every single time their work is nothing but a lazy and shameful cash grab, targeting casuals, dads, collectors, and just anybody who doesn't care. They will never get their shit together. Also, why would I wait every time they release something new until someone lag tests it? To me CC = don't buy. Plus I dislike them because most likely some people have had a bad experience with CC and then conclude that games handled by ACA or M2 are just as bad.
By now there are so many ways to play those games and every single one is probably better (some cheaper) than supporting CC.

So which of their releases exactly did you have a problem with? You can't blame City Connection for any issues with the ZeroDiv Psikyo ports, which were made by ZeroDiv before CC acquired them. Deathsmiles 1&2 and Akai Katana are widely accepted to be excellent ports, I don't think anyone complaining about the quality of those releases is arguing honestly.

So is it just the S-Tribute stuff? I mean, obviously don't buy it if that's not what you're after (Saturn ports on modern consoles), but at this point it's definitely a known quantity and does not require lag testing to know what you're going to get. The emulator adds ~3 frames of lag from whatever lag already existed in the Saturn ports. This is a known limitation of the emulator, and isn't really egregiously bad on games that weren't already laggy on Saturn (like Cotton 2 & Guardian Force). If anything, I think CC's biggest failure was launching the S-Tribute line with THAT Cotton/GF release, which really was poor and gave them a bad reputation that remains to this day. CC should have known better and started the series with games that weren't already a laggy mess BEFORE adding additional emulator lag. I do fault them for that terrible decision. Had they launched instead with, say, Elevator Action Returns and followed that up with Puzzle Bobble 2X/3... I bet we'd see a lot less CC hate around these parts.

Plus I dislike them because most likely some people have had a bad experience with CC and then conclude that games handled by ACA or M2 are just as bad.
By now there are so many ways to play those games and every single one is probably better (some cheaper) than supporting CC.

I don't really think City Connection is turning off any newcomers to the genre, people who are sickos enough to be buying S-Tribute releases of WOLF FANG are the kind of people who were also gonna buy Hamster's and M2's stuff regardless.

And what's with this obsession with using "dads" as a pejorative? Maybe a personal thing due to your own familial relationships? If so, I wish you well. But honestly, if I'm a publisher and can target casuals, dads, and collectors... that's probably a hell of a lot more sales than going out of your way to try to please 100 hardcore STG dudes who will find any reason they can to gripe about your game. I don't blame CC at all for going where the money is instead of trying to appease people who are just gonna play on MAME no matter what they do. Most players ARE casual enough that they can't perceive a couple extra frames of lag in Batsugun, or if they can it's minor enough to not affect their enjoyment.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Nobody mentioned here that the SAT ports got additional lag vs the PCB.

Like four posts up it was in Arino’s list

It's also the entire point of the large quote from GSK in my reply halfway down page 1.

Doesn't seem like you've really followed the conversation. Arino states that there's generally additional lag on a game ported from the arcade to the Saturn and believes that it's a point that was made earlier. I was telling him neither of that is true. That quoted text doesn't say anything which hasn't been here on this forum since the first release - some SAT games had noticeable input lag originally. But it's not additional lag over the arcade versions. Indeed, precisely for STG, you'll find more cases where it seems to be just the opposite, the SAT version gets at least 1 frame less of input lag - Garegga, Guardian Force, Ray Force come to mind.

[Marc]

Is there anyone here who actually played Batsugun S-Tribute and found it that horrible? In my experience, it really isn't some unplayable mess. It would be surprising to me for anyone to find it that bad unless you fall into the categories of (1) people who are unusually sensitive to lag, or (2) Batsugun megafans who are used to PCB-only and chasing WW high scores. I expect the vast majority of people who want to play the game will be just fine with it. I know I was, and while I'm no pro Batsugun player, I've played a good bit of the Saturn release over the years so have a decent frame of reference.

It feels like people are often happier to just be miserable and parrot stuff like The Electric Underground's overblown rants though, to each their own.

Nope, does the job as far as I'm concerned. Between that and that upcoming Evercade cart, I couldn't care less about am M2 release now.

[Marc]

DP

[Marc]

I don't really think City Connection is turning off any newcomers to the genre, people who are sickos enough to be buying S-Tribute releases of WOLF FANG are the kind of people who were also gonna buy Hamster's and M2's stuff regardless.

And what's with this obsession with using "dads" as a pejorative? Maybe a personal thing due to your own familial relationships? If so, I wish you well. But honestly, if I'm a publisher and can target casuals, dads, and collectors... that's probably a hell of a lot more sales than going out of your way to try to please 100 hardcore STG dudes who will find any reason they can to gripe about your game. I don't blame CC at all for going where the money is instead of trying to appease people who are just gonna play on MAME no matter what they do. Most players ARE casual enough that they can't perceive a couple extra frames of lag in Batsugun, or if they can it's minor enough to not affect their enjoyment.

1st paragraph - great point. Anyone buying a conversion of a 90s 2D shmup in this day and age, we're already into nerd territory so they have some idea - nobody is picking this up on the Switch eshop on a whim, then boycotting the genre forever because 'it doesn't feel right'.
If 'casual' means that between the CC version, the upcoming Evercade release, and my Pi5 setup, i won't be shelling out £40 on the M2 version for a 3/4 frame reduction in lag, then I accept the label happily.

2nd paragraph - glad I'm.not the only one to have similar thoughts on the 'dad" thing.

[Air Master Burst]

If you have a PC just get the Bitwave version, seriously. It's a fraction of the price and better in every way.
ETA: except the music in level 3; Bitwave's version sounds a bit off, but I also haven't really messed with the audio filter options much.

Apparently their Out Zone is still a mess, though. But they have been releasing regular patches, so there's hope.

[hamfighterx]

I like that we have options.

Personally, I don't like playing on PCs in the first place. And even if I do (generally because it's the only option), I really REALLY don't care about a PC version of any arcade game that is better emulated in MAME on the very same hardware. Especially considering Bitwave's releases have had issues too, as some here have documented in great detail (like Steven's notes on the broken sound in many of their Toaplan releases). I appreciate that Bitwave's ports exist for those who want them, but they aren't for me.

[Arino]

Just to be clear: The only reason why I was going on about this is because I just love these games so much. I just care. And I want the best for all of us. I just want to show those assholes (City Connection) that it's not okay what they are doing, and that nobody should let them get away with it. I just want a better world for all of us!

City Connection don't care about us, and that's not right!

https://youtu.be/QNJL6nfu__Q?si=FKZsYJhoef0YOf1L

[Air Master Burst]

I really REALLY don't care about a PC version of any arcade game that is better emulated in MAME on the very same hardware.

Bitwave's Batsugun is better than MAME. I can't speak for the rest of their lineup, but their Batsugun is probably the best way to play it unless you happen to have a PCB.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Bitwave's Batsugun is better than MAME.

How so?

[Air Master Burst]

Feels a bit more responsive to me, although I admit I haven't officially tested it.

[SeafoamGaming]

Is there anyone here who actually played Batsugun S-Tribute and found it that horrible? In my experience, it really isn't some unplayable mess. It would be surprising to me for anyone to find it that bad unless you fall into the categories of (1) people who are unusually sensitive to lag, or (2) Batsugun megafans who are used to PCB-only and chasing WW high scores. I expect the vast majority of people who want to play the game will be just fine with it. I know I was, and while I'm no pro Batsugun player, I've played a good bit of the Saturn release over the years so have a decent frame of reference.

It feels like people are often happier to just be miserable and parrot stuff like The Electric Underground's overblown rants though, to each their own.

The Guardian Force port drove me bonkers, and I loathe the Sega Genesis Classics set and consider that to have unplayable lag, to the point I groan when people recommend that over M2's excellent NSO app.

The S-Tribute games I've played post Success are all fine. All 3 taito games were fine and I enjoyed em on Steam Deck/Xbox, and I enjoyed Batsugun quite a lot. I still like it more than the bitwave port even though the bitwave port absolutely wins on the input lag front. But yeah, I found it better than the astro V version of Batsugun, so... These are fine. They exist, and I'd much take a S-tribute port over godawful buggy Carbon Engine rom dumps any day of the week.

Never played these two before, so I'm eager to check em out. Still need to play Leynos 2, which I plan to on Xbox eventually. Very dumb Embracer has their hands on the western releases of these though, and delay the PS4/Switch digital versions for their dumb physicals. They did that with Batsugun and it didn't even come out here in the end because Clear River canceled the release. But yeah like, if you want a garbage line of bad emulation, the LRG Carbon releases are right there, and lord help us if they port NES Crisis Force or something with the missing sound channels they had in their other NES ports.