R2TRRFF: High-speed Hedgehog Monogatari & Knuckles

[Steven]

I have discovered something fascinating: the 2011 Sonic CD remake supports 16:10 resolutions! Or 8:5 if you want to call it that. Normally I wouldn't care that much, but the Sonic CD in Sonic Origins is stuck at 16:9. The aspect ratios of the 2011 and Origins versions of Sonic CD have different aspect ratios if you play both of them on a 16:9 screen, but yeah. The 2011 version has worse audio quality and an aggressive interpolation filter that can't be disabled, so it still looks and sounds worse in most cases, but the special stages run at a much higher resolution than the Origins version does, which is extremely weird.

Here, check it out. Lossless screenshots from Steam Deck, which puts black bars on stuff that doesn't fit the 16:10 aspect ratio. 2011 is first, Origins is second. You can really tell the difference in resolution in the special stage!

Spoiler

So is this more proof that Origins sucks?

[Air Master Burst]

So is this more proof that Origins sucks?

Kinda? It's probably the best official way to play them for anyone without a Genesis. Sonic 1 Forever, Sonic 2 Absolute, and Sonic 3 Complete all exist, though, so there's no reason to put yourself through that.

The only real issue is picking between Sonic 3 Complete and A.I.R., but it's been a few years and A.I.R. might have finally added everything from S3C. Once they do, it'll be definitive.

I'd say it is more proof that Sonic CD sucks but deep down everyone already knows it's true.

[Lander]

Hmm, it looks to me like the Origins shots might be more correct for aspect ratio in 2D scenes; the 2011 ones look slightly vertically stretched if you focus on circular objects like the ZONE 1 indicator and skybox planets.
Though the special stage definitely looks sharper in the 2011 version, along with whatever aspect ratio oddness is going on.

Oh, and good title tweak it's about time!

[NairobiNantucket]

Sonic CD Restored should probably be mentioned in that list. Restored was meant for speedrunning but it seems to be the most comprehensive CD mod today with the caveat you need to compile it yourself following the Github steps if you want Knuckles. It addresses the audio fidelity and accepts .ini filter adjustments.

I casually played CD for the first time last year through Restored and found it agreeable for my needs. I ended up learning either destroying all past transporters or collecting all Time Stones is sufficient for the good ending; figuring out how to get to the transporter in Wacky Workbench 1 was a doozy.

[Sima Tuna]

So is this more proof that Origins sucks?

Kinda? It's probably the best official way to play them for anyone without a Genesis. Sonic 1 Forever, Sonic 2 Absolute, and Sonic 3 Complete all exist, though, so there's no reason to put yourself through that.

The best official way to play Sonic 1 and 2 is through the M2-ported Sega Ages collections, which add the cool extra content while still allowing you to disable everything if you want.

As you said, there are even better ways to play Sonic games unofficially. And I don't think anybody should feel guilty about emulating extremely old games from a scummy company like Sega.

[Steven]

The only real issue is picking between Sonic 3 Complete and A.I.R., but it's been a few years and A.I.R. might have finally added everything from S3C. Once they do, it'll be definitive.

That's easy: Complete, because it works on a real Mega Drive/Genesis. All it really needs to be perfect is to restore the ability to take Knuckles into Sonic's Ice Cap Act 2 without debug and add an optional drop dash, but neither of those will probably happen, especially since development stopped 11 years ago or something like that.

How does A.I.R. work, anyway? Is it running natively or is it some kind of software emulator?

I'd say it is more proof that Sonic CD sucks but deep down everyone already knows it's true.

CD is like the 3rd or 4th best Sonic game, and I generally prefer it (and Sonic 1) over Sonic 2, so if CD sucks that makes the rest of the series complete garbage or something.

Hmm, it looks to me like the Origins shots might be more correct for aspect ratio in 2D scenes; the 2011 ones look slightly vertically stretched if you focus on circular objects like the ZONE 1 indicator and skybox planets.
Though the special stage definitely looks sharper in the 2011 version, along with whatever aspect ratio oddness is going on.

Oh, and good title tweak it's about time!

Yeah, I need to go get screenshots from my 16:9 monitor for comparison and haven't gotten around to it yet. I am especially curious about the title screen and the special stages.

As for the title... yeah, I can't believe I forgot to do that from the start. I really should have, but...

Sonic CD Restored should probably be mentioned in that list. Restored was meant for speedrunning but it seems to be the most comprehensive CD mod today with the caveat you need to compile it yourself following the Github steps if you want Knuckles. It addresses the audio fidelity and accepts .ini filter adjustments.

I casually played CD for the first time last year through Restored and found it agreeable for my needs. I ended up learning either destroying all past transporters or collecting all Time Stones is sufficient for the good ending; figuring out how to get to the transporter in Wacky Workbench 1 was a doozy.

The 2011 remake broke or altered a bunch of things for some reason, including the physics, probably at least partially because it was completely remade from nothing without using the original source code. This is why I greatly prefer the Japanese Mega-CD version, which I still consider by far the best version of the game despite its disappointing performance problems. Too bad my Mega-CD is being weird, so I can't play it. I'll fix it eventually, but until then I'm stuck with the remakes.

[Air Master Burst]

How does A.I.R. work, anyway? Is it running natively or is it some kind of software emulator?

A.I.R. is interesting; it requires a rom to play, but it's a dedicated program.

S3C isn't widescreen with 60 fps, which is why if A.I.R. has added all the S3C stuff it will automatically become the best version.

CD is like the 3rd or 4th best Sonic game, and I generally prefer it (and Sonic 1) over Sonic 2, so if CD sucks that makes the rest of the series complete garbage or something.

Well yeah; taken as a whole series, the vast majority of Sonic games ARE complete garbage. I'm a little surprised anyone would prefer CD to 2 though; the difference in level design quality alone is pretty drastic. Outside of that stupid pit in Mystic Cave, Sonic 2 has some of the tightest level design in any platformer of the era; while Wacky Workbench might be the worst Sonic zone of all time (the only thing worse off top are the special stages in Advance 1).

CD used to be worth playing sometimes for Stardust Speedway, but the Mania version is so much better I can't imagine ever booting up CD again.

[Steven]

Here's what it looks like on the 16:9 screen. The orange planet thing in the special stage looks really wide here for some reason. Not good at comparing aspect ratios by eye, so I'll let someone else compare them.

Spoiler

How does A.I.R. work, anyway? Is it running natively or is it some kind of software emulator?

A.I.R. is interesting; it requires a rom to play, but it's a dedicated program.

Yes, I downloaded it several years ago, but I'm not sure exactly what it is. Is it a standalone emulator or is it actually running the game natively on Windows?

S3C isn't widescreen with 60 fps, which is why if A.I.R. has added all the S3C stuff it will automatically become the best version.

Is it actually 60FPS or is it 59.92? Genesis and Japanese MD run at 59.92Hz, and S3C, like every Sonic game on that system aside from Spinball, is 320x224 at 59.92FPS, with NTSC standard refresh rate being 59.94Hz. If it's using the code from the MD game, it's almost certainly 59.92Hz because that's what the system runs at.

Well yeah; taken as a whole series, the vast majority of Sonic games ARE complete garbage. I'm a little surprised anyone would prefer CD to 2 though; the difference in level design quality alone is pretty drastic. Outside of that stupid pit in Mystic Cave, Sonic 2 has some of the tightest level design in any platformer of the era; while Wacky Workbench might be the worst Sonic zone of all time (the only thing worse off top are the special stages in Advance 1).

CD used to be worth playing sometimes for Stardust Speedway, but the Mania version is so much better I can't imagine ever booting up CD again.

Sonic 2 is on the weak side for MD/Genesis 2D Sonic for two reasons. First, it's the easiest one by far, not that any of the others are actually hard, but 2 is definitely the easiest, especially when you can be Super Sonic before the end of Emerald Hill Act 2. Solution is to be Tails so you can't be Super, or just not get the Chaos Emeralds, of course. At least Sonic 1 has Scrap Brain Act 1, where you can fall in a hole and die if you aren't careful. The other reason is because Sonic 2 has the least interesting and possibly simplest level design out of all of them. It's still way better than garbage like Advance 2 or whatever, at least.

[Lander]

Those screenies look correct for aspect; square pixels, straight diagonals, etc. Some of the spritework looks author-squished (like the planets) but I'd guess that's an intentional thing to correct for whatever manner of not-quite-square pixels the MD / CD worked out to.

Based on that, I'd guess the 2011 port is hardcoded to 16:9, and just stretches if you exceed it vertically. So unless there's some sort of 'margin of error' thing going on to dynamically switch between supported ratios, trying to run in Tate would break it quite badly.

A.I.R. sounds cool; probably not an emulator (or an accurate one, at least) if it's able to render beyond the original viewport bounds. I'd guess it tears apart the ROM to acquire all the assets, then combines them with manually reverse-engineered game code to produce a native program - somewhat like how the Mario 64 PC ports work.
Smart way to go if so - requiring a ROM sidesteps a bunch of legal issues, and the breakdown-reconstruct methodology is most philosophically pleasing

Unrelated: I found a sitcom cover of Hill Top Zone *canned laughter*

[Steven]

It's worth noting that the special stages in both 2 and CD run at 256x224 (except on Sonic Jam Sonic 2 for obvious reasons), so aspect ratios in the special stages for those games are different from everything else. That might be why the planet's all stretched.

I put Sonic CD back to 1280x720 on the Steam Deck. Too bad it mangles the aspect ratio if you put it to something other than 16:9. That, along with the weird physics and the 60FPS cap are the most disappointing things about the Retro Engine remakes and Mania, but that's how it is. Retro Engine is flexible enough and built with modding in mind, so someone can probably fix it somehow.

[Air Master Burst]

Sonic 2 is on the weak side for MD/Genesis 2D Sonic for two reasons. First, it's the easiest one by far, not that any of the others are actually hard, but 2 is definitely the easiest, especially when you can be Super Sonic before the end of Emerald Hill Act 2.

These games were designed for children, of course they're easy! I find Sonic 2 has the best level design because it actually lets you go fast, which is the whole fucking point. It also has the least objectionable water level in the franchise in Aquatic Ruin.

That said, you have to be fairly careful with your routing and practice the last couple special stages a whole lot to get all 7 emeralds by the end of Emerald Hill. It is fun as hell tearing through the whole game as Super Sonic anyway, even if it does paradoxically make a few parts significantly harder.

If you really want a challenge, try getting all 7 emeralds with a follower Tails. I did it once, do not recommend.

[Sima Tuna]

I discovered earlier in this thread than people have wildly different opinions on which Sonic games are the best.

I enjoy Sonic 1, Sonic 2 and Sonic CD quite a bit. I haven't played 3K enough to form an opinion on it. I agree that there are some fundamental design differences between Sonic 1/CD and Sonic 2/later games, especially with regard to how momentum and speed function in level design. As time went on, and especially when getting to the Advance games, speed became more of "the point" and less of a reward for skillful play. Whereas Sonic 1 and CD will continually punish new players who try to rush. There are a lot of sections in those games where you need to go a little slower and not try to Blue Blur everything.

I like both style of classic sonic game. Going fast is fun, but the thoughtful, slower pace is enjoyable too. Sonic 2 is probably my favorite of the classic games, but I still enjoy CD and Sonic 1.

[Air Master Burst]

I haven't played 3K enough to form an opinion on it. I agree that there are some fundamental design differences between Sonic 1/CD and Sonic 2/later games, especially with regard to how momentum and speed function in level design. As time went on, and especially when getting to the Advance games, speed became more of "the point" and less of a reward for skillful play.

Sonic 3 is probably the worst as far as level design (apart from whatever CD was doing); Hydrocity > Marble Garden > Carnival Night is a total slog every time, and it's pretty frontloaded so you always have to work through it to get to the good parts of S3+K.

Also, that stupid cylinder in Carnival Night can die in a fire.

[XoPachi]

Filtered by funny barrel.
I know the pain too well.
(Sonic 3 is lovely)

[null1024]

Marble Garden would be a lot better with every instance of the swinging giant spike ball removed, but even then there's a LOT of shit that even when you know it's coming, you don't really have the movement ability to react to it. It's definitely kind of rough. I used to like the level more when I was younger, for some reason. It's probably the worst overall level I'd say.
Carnival Night Act 1 is entirely fine, Act 2 is a slog. There's probably a faster way through it, but it's like 6-7 minutes when I do it these days. It's kind of funny just how short Knuckles' version of CNZ2 is. I don't think I ever got stuck on the barrel, but I think someone told me when I was young, so maybe I knew what to do going in. I've gotten screwed going into the boss with like 9:30 on the clock before [and again, I didn't get stuck on the barrel].
I genuinely have nothing bad to say about Hydrocity other than the Act 2 crushing wall killed me a bunch as a kid. Otherwise, great level. Pretty much none of the typical water level bullshit, you get a good mix of underwater and fast sections interspersed throughout.
They really wanted to use the water in S3, every zone except for Marble Garden has water somewhere in it. There's no water in S&K.

The S&K half is largely just better than S3 though. Sandopolis Act 2 is also too long, but I've actually grown to like the stage more over time. Act 1 is cool.

[Air Master Burst]

I genuinely have nothing bad to say about Hydrocity other than the Act 2 crushing wall killed me a bunch as a kid. Otherwise, great level. Pretty much none of the typical water level bullshit, you get a good mix of underwater and fast sections interspersed throughout.

I never considered underwater sections to be good things, but if you're into them I can see the argument for Hydrocity. There are some fun bits! I like the speed charger things, and running across the top of the water like turbo jesus is pretty dope. I will also admit the bubble shield makes things less annoying, although I really wish they'd offered complete upper routes like Aquatic Ruin. I also find Hydrocity's aesthetics a bit bland, but that's a seperate issue.

ETA: the barrel in Carnival Night was so bad I seem to recall the programmer personally apologized for it.

[XoPachi]

Honestly, the barrel itself isn't even really that bad. It's not an exciting gimmick, but when you know how it works, it's not frustrating anymore and only appears once as an obstacle. It's a first time trap because you don't know how to use it and are given mixed signals about how you interact with it.

The way the game guides you to them is to jump on them which then begins their motion. So you assume timing jumps, which gives it some additional movement, is what you're meant to do because nothing else in the game is operated by holding up or down. That's the last way you would think it works. It's the poster child of unexplained mechanics.

[XoPachi]

To this day I do not understand the niche appeal of Sonic Riders. It's such a boring racing game.
Half the game plays itself and this "depth" it's fans always go on about amounts to timing jumps on a ramp and sometimes jerking the control stick around in a circle. There's so many moments where you're not doing anything and even accelerating is automated.

People frequently try to say it didn't do well because it doesn't have a tutorial. But it's not a difficult game to play? It's a neutered F-Zero with gimped THPS elements. There's nothing to get. Even the air system is bungled because if you run out you just go on foot until you get to a refill station 2 steps in front of you. And you level the meter up to a comical capacity after hitting 2 ring capsules killing any remaining risk/reward anyway. So air doesn't even matter by lap 2.

And it's a shame because the aesthetic is PEAK modern Sonic next to the handheld games and Heroes. I wish this game was fun.

[Air Master Burst]

To this day I do not understand the niche appeal of Sonic Riders. It's such a boring racing game.

Zero Gravity added a good bit of depth, and is actually pretty fun party game, but it's still no Sonic All-Stars Racing.

ETA: the less said about the Kinect game the better.

[XoPachi]

Turbulence has to be the single worst mechanic I've ever seen in a racing game. All the complaining I may have ever done about Mario Kart items, the horrible bike balancing of Wii, the item stat in DS, I'd rather have every misstep of that series in one package than whatever the fuck they were thinking with this here.

"Hey you know racing lines and track knowledge? Yeah fuck that." If you're in second, you basically don't get to interact with the track.
It wouldn't be so annoying if you could just get the fuck out of it but, you quite literally can't avoid in most cases. Often time you straight up land into someone's slipstream when doing a trick. It causes so many problems if you actually want to do something that would be better to get you on a more optimal route.
On top of that it's purely spectacle. It's one of the many times this game takes some degree of control from you. It's just some dummy catchup mechanic that's worse than the catchup mechanics already in the game. 90% of the tracks are all just automated short cuts as it is. You don't really need more than what's already here.

[Sima Tuna]

Yeah, I tried playing some mobile game wave race clone thing a while ago and the wave physics were complete ass. It was more like driving in a bouncy castle than anything approaching waves.

A related pet peeve is slipstreaming. I hate slipstream mechanics in racing games generally, since most racing games already use rubberband AI and slipstream mechanics punish clean driving and prevent the player from ever remaining in the lead for long.

[Air Master Burst]

It wouldn't be so annoying if you could just get the fuck out of it but, you quite literally can't avoid in most cases.

I'm pretty sure hitting both triggers at once will get you out of it, but I haven't played original Sonic Riders in a long time.

Zero Gravity changes it to Slipstream and it works a lot better.

[XoPachi]

Zero Gravity has issues, but this game is a lot less automated than the first. I'm playing a somewhat botched mod that gives some improvements like drifting.
You still don't have control of your acceleration and there's still mid race scripted sequences but I feel like races are much fuller. The mod also gets rid of that horrible blur effect so this gorgeous game can visually shine a bit better.

[Steven]

Sonic Generations is suddenly gone from the Xbox store. Get the PC version while you still can before you're stuck with a shitty version that's online-only.

Completely not related, but has anyone watched Sonic Boom? Against all odds, I've heard it's actually pretty good! Aside from the questionable character designs, anyway.

[XoPachi]

Completely not related, but has anyone watched Sonic Boom? Against all odds, I've heard it's actually pretty good! Aside from the questionable character designs, anyway.

Sonic Boom is decently funny but, many jokes go over your head if you aren't knee deep into Sonic's uhm...culture, I guess. There are fairly deep references and fanbase jabs someone becoming a Sonic fan during or after that show's run will simply not get. Like a scene where Sonic is sleep talking during a nightmare and he goes "no...stop, you're pure evil. why are you coloring my arms!?". To someone fresh, it would just seem like a lolrandumb thing to make him say. But it's a reference to Chris Chan throwing a fit in a GameStop because Sonic's Boom redesign had blue arms instead of beige. There's a few things like that.

It's really poorly animated though when it's trying to have more involved scenes. It really is just a comedy.

It's also the show where everyone wanted to pretend it's characterization of Knuckles was the end of times. People exaggerating, saying how he acts in Boom is how Sega characterizes him in everything now (it's not).

Also Sticks's voice actress is Khan Maykr in Doom Eternal and that shit still throws me off.

[null1024]

From what I've seen, Sonic Boom is genuinely quite funny, but I've been a Sonic fan for the entirety of my memory and have been very involved in its community until the last few years.
XoPachi is totally on the mark.

[XoPachi]

I wish there was a better mod for Sonic Riders ZG than Regravitified because they broke bots and refused to fix them since the focus of the mod was to make the game "cOmpeTitiVe". They also screwed up the music. But it got rid of the base game's disgusting motion blur (this game is so beautiful), sped it up to an actual racing game standard, and put in a standard drift. I just want that with the full ZG experience.

[Steven]

Looks like I'm going to have to watch Sonic Boom, it seems.

Semi-bad news: Sonic Generations is being delisted, but only kind of. It seems that if you buy some bundle of games you'll still be able to get it. If they really insist on delisting it unless you buy it in a bundle, I don't see why they don't make Sonic x Shadow Generations come with regular Sonic Generations for free. Probably better to get it now if you don't have it before doing so becomes an annoyance.

[Sima Tuna]

Same as when Rockstar delisted all the old (good) versions of GTA 3, Vice City and San Andreas prior to releasing their hd "definitive" garbage.

[Steven]

Doom and Doom II just got delisted the other day too. Companies love taking away the ability to buy something and replacing it with a worse and more expensive version of the same thing. It seems that at least Doom and Doom II were replaced by better versions, although I don't know the specifics, and that original Generations will awkwardly live on, even if it's as part of a bundle of games that may or may not be worth buying just to get Generations for those that don't already have it.