OSSC Pro

[ZellSF]

Most negative feedback was due to lack of composite/s-video so I'd like to develop that next. The analogue out card RetroRGB showed on his live stream that works already.

I can understand composite/S-video on a CRT, but on an upscaler? Seriously, who is still using these low quality video signals into scalers? It makes 0 sense to me.

People who have systems that only can output those signals? People who have systems that can be modded for other signals, but don't want to waste lots of money on that? People who want to play games that are designed around composite signal degradation?

[Josh128]

Most negative feedback was due to lack of composite/s-video so I'd like to develop that next. The analogue out card RetroRGB showed on his live stream that works already.

I can understand composite/S-video on a CRT, but on an upscaler? Seriously, who is still using these low quality video signals into scalers? It makes 0 sense to me.

While I agree with your sentiment, the reality is, probably a lot of folks are still using them, actually. Even for power users / videophiles like the majority of us here on this forum, they can come in very handy, especially when testing unmodded consoles. Just yesterday I used both composite and S-Video inputs on my 5X to test an unmodded 2 chip SNES and compare color and lag between multiple displays.

As far as actually using the signals for gameplay, not my preference, but I will say that these scalers clean up composite A LOT compared to direct feed to HD displays of any kind and its my opinion that S-Video is good enough to still be a viable option when playing even in this day and age. If I had to rate them in quality, I would say:

Composite: 50%
SVideo: 85%-90%
Component/RGBS:100%

I mean, this is a low res photo of composite (or S-Video? dont remember as I used both but damn it looks good if composite ) out of a 2 chip SNES to an HS 420 I took yesterday, its far from unplayable. For the reason these scalers were created, that is, to scale classic console signals, I agree that its kind of strange to not have them, especially considering the asking price of these scalers when composite/svideo is all most of these consoles offer in the NTSC world, unless modded, right up to the Dreamcast+ generation.

[tongshadow]

People who have systems that only can output those signals? People who have systems that can be modded for other signals, but don't want to waste lots of money on that?

I can only think of few notable examples: the NES and 2nd gen consoles. They all already have RGB mods available to them, and even if it's too expensive, then so is the OSSC Pro. Why would anyone look at the OSSC Pro if they arent even committed enough to at least invest in a RGB mod for their favorite console? This is the product they should be looking at:

Spoiler

People who want to play games that are designed around composite signal degradation?

I can agree that developers had to work around limitations, the NES is good example due to its limited color pallete. But there's no evidence suggesting that "games were designed for a specific video signal", however, that's an entirely different discussion not fit to be here.

The point is that a hardware designed for enthusiasts shouldnt need to cater to ALL needs. That would be like saying the LG OLED C2/C3 should have composite/component inputs just because I still use VHS and DVD players, and that not including those legacy inputs should be viewed as a valid criticism.

[SavagePencil]

I think I’d trust Bucko a bit more, as he has to run a business around it and lives off what people actually want.

[ZellSF]

I can only think of few notable examples: the NES and 2nd gen consoles.

3DO? N64? PC Engine Duo?

[and even if it's too expensive, then so is the OSSC Pro. Why would anyone look at the OSSC Pro if they arent even committed enough to at least invest in a RGB mod for their favorite console? This is the product they should be looking at:

It's not all or nothing, or there would be no reason to look at the OSSC Pro either. If they have so much cash why not just go with a RetroTink4K?

I can agree that developers had to work around limitations, the NES is good example due to its limited color pallete. But there's no evidence suggesting that "games were designed for a specific video signal", however, that's an entirely different discussion not fit to be here.

The NES could only output composite. Of course games were designed for it.

[marqs]

Any plans to offer different case colors? I hate white and don’t want to purchase a second housing.

I've asked about this as well. They only have white available for now but hopefully they can offer black in the future or open-source the case enclosure.

We have been considering this, also for the remote. Expect some details soon. Unfortunately at the quantities we're talking about alternative colors / cases are not very economical.

What is the status of the various expansion boards being developed?

Very much work in progress, more developers / testers would be appreciated.

I read on a discord somewhere that a rival unit is able to output an upscaled and a downscaled image at the same time via different outs. This would be an incredible feature if possible. Would this be feasible when the expansion is ready?

Completely independent outputs would require duplicating a large part of the logic in FPGA, but some kind compromise could possibly be found (e.g. secondary output being limited to P-LM only when not working in 'clone' mode).

Most negative feedback was due to lack of composite/s-video so I'd like to develop that next. The analogue out card RetroRGB showed on his live stream that works already.

I can understand composite/S-video on a CRT, but on an upscaler? Seriously, who is still using these low quality video signals into scalers? It makes 0 sense to me.

People who have systems that only can output those signals? People who have systems that can be modded for other signals, but don't want to waste lots of money on that? People who want to play games that are designed around composite signal degradation?

How come nobody has requested RF yet? I've almost seriously considered adding a tv tuner on the expansion card for low-quality sources.

[jaffa225man]

How come nobody has requested RF yet? I've almost seriously considered adding a tv tuner on the expansion card for low-quality sources.

I realize you might be joking. However, there are some use cases for that. I can think of this one: My Atari 2600 is RGB modded, but the RGB output doesn't work for Starmaster. Granted, I still have VCRs so I can demodulate it on that to composite, or with S-VHS capable units, S-Video. I doubt other people want to hang on to VCRs much now, though, unless they have lots of tapes like I do.

I love you for suggesting it, if in earnest! You do think outside the box and have created the best video processors to date, in my opinion. (Does anyone else go out of their way to avoid chroma-subsampling? I think not, and I think that quality shows.)

Thanks!

[BuckoA51]

I think I’d trust Bucko a bit more, as he has to run a business around it and lives off what people actually want.

I didn't really expect this to turn this into a debate Obviously there are plenty of use cases for a composite input on a scaler even in 2023.. How else are you going to play your Casio Loopy on your big screen TV, for example?? (yes that's my attempt at a joke.. unless it isn't and you do want to play your Loopy in which case you do you I'm not going to judge ).

Me personally I don't have any composite only systems in my main setup but I'd love S-Video for my beloved C64. Yes I could use the Copperdragon mod but C64 was my childhood computer and I want 100% accuracy.

So I mean obviously having composite/S-video is useful for some folks for a multitude of reasons, and for others it's not really an issue. If you need it, this isn't the product for you, at least right now.

How come nobody has requested RF yet? I've almost seriously considered adding a tv tuner on the expansion card for low-quality sources.

I'm not sure if you're joking but I've been working with a client here in Ireland and he's designing a whole custom RF setup for his games room, specifically for Atari 2600, Odyssey etc, that he wants to run on period accurate hardware and displays. He'd probably buy your RF add-on card in a heart beat so he could capture the output and also show it on his HDTV at the same time.

I'm sure we've all seen the sunset in the game Enduro on the 2600 no doubt, absolutely designed for the blur of RF.. though with these newer scalers we can also probably expect to see filters, post processing etc emulate some of that where necessary too.

[orange808]

I'd buy an analog RF coax tuner card.

[SavagePencil]

I would kill for a way to digitize and upscale an Atari Video Music (RF-out only).

[awe444]

Once the analog output add-on board is finalized and produced, could a pure DAC operating mode be possible to add? Meaning the Pro would take the AV4 digital input and output the signal as analog without any other processing other than the conversion to analog. Obviously there are lots of cheap DACs that do this (some better than others) but there is value in consolidating functionality into fewer devices for a less cluttered setup.

Related question is: can the AV4 input be passed through out the HDMI output with zero processing? With no lag and leaving any metadata flags untouched?

[tongshadow]

3DO? N64? PC Engine Duo?

We're in 2023, numerous cheap and good RGB solutions exist.
But for the sake of argument, let's say there's a person who is one of those "Composite Lovers" and doesnt want a better picture quality using RGB. This person probably already has his composite setup figured out, he probably uses a composite switch and has a RetroTink 2X MINI.
Now, considering all that, why would he criticize the OSSC Pro for the lack of composite/s-video support when his setup is already figured out? He would just need to plug the 2X MINI output into the OSSC Pro's digital input.

It's not all or nothing, or there would be no reason to look at the OSSC Pro either. If they have so much cash why not just go with a RetroTink4K?

My point is, if that "Composite Lover" guy doesnt even want to spend money upgrading his consoles to RGB, then why would he suddenly look at the premium OSSC Pro and think: "Damn, this is EXACTLY what I need... but booo, no composite/svideo!? Crappy product!!"? And if he wants to upgrade from the amazon av2hdmi converter, he would probably just buy the 2X MINI anyways.

The NES could only output composite. Of course games were designed for it.

This is actually wrong, the original Famicom could only output RF. Therefore, if we use the same argument, then I can say NES/Famicom games were designed with RF in mind, and that Composite would not give the intended look. In fact, I can go even further by claming: Due to the way RF modulates sound and the low bitrate of the console, only RF gives the true audiovisual experience.

Sounds silly, right? But so is claiming the NES is meant to be used on composite only. I think it's far more likely that it's only due to majority of displays at time accepting RF/Composite signals. If RGB inputs were as ubiquitous as the other inputs, I guarantee the NES would output RGB from the factory.

[Guspaz]

N64 RGB mods are not necessarily cheap, and the cost of a CPLD/FPGA-based mod (since few consoles are compatible with the simple mod), including the cost of the mod, installation, and shipping a console both ways, can easily get into the hundreds of dollars. And for what? RGB isn't a massive improvement in image quality over S-Video on the best of days, and for the N64, there's almost no difference, especially when you can do the deblur on the scaler. If you have to RGB mod several consoles like this, you can easily spend far more money than the OSSC Pro even costs in the first place. I think it's a silly argument that composite/s-video isn't needed in a scaler because people can just RGB mod all their consoles. That's a waste of money, especially if it's a lower priority console, one that you don't use all that often.

[ZellSF]

Also the notion "composite lovers" already have a RetroTink2X or should just buy one is laughable; RGB lovers also likely already have a OSSC or could just buy one.

It's true that NES games could be designed for RF and not composite though. They just certainly were not designed around sharp RGB output.

[bobrocks95]

What if most of my consoles are RGB, sure, but some aren't? What a weird take that the solution is several hundreds of dollars to upgrade all those systems instead of can I buy a $50ish add-on board?

[jaffa225man]

I'm sure the OSSC Pro adapter will work better than the RetroTink2X (mine's glitchy) and will also (at least slightly) improve upon the Koryuu's picture quality. I have both, but still want these legacy inputs to be supported by the OSSC Pro, at least for the possibility of 4:4:4 processing.

Marqs has a track record of developing devices that are the ideal, while also providing exemplary, and even unprompted, support.

[fernan1234]

Famicom/NES RF/composite (or S-video for that matter) is important simply because it has not been possible to get an RGB palette that works well for all games.

Also for S-video don't forget about the FM Towns Marty!

Anyway, the add-on board will be much welcome whenever it's available. For now I'm eyeing an OSSC Pro for use with old computers like X68000 and PC98, not to display them on flat panels but to adjust their video output for a CRT monitor. Hopefully there won't be stock problems or else I might as well just get a new Tink when it comes out next month.

[tongshadow]

I think it's a silly argument that composite/s-video isn't needed in a scaler because people can just RGB mod all their consoles. That's a waste of money, especially if it's a lower priority console, one that you don't use all that often.

Sounds silly, right? But in truth, that's precisely what happened when video game scalers, like the Framemeister, became more popular. Everyone started looking for ways to get RGB out of their consoles, even going to extremes like the NES.
I dont remember the original OSSC being criticized this badly for not having composite/S-Video, people either had to find ways to convert those lower quality signals into the OSSC, or just got into the world of RGB.

It's true that NES games could be designed for RF and not composite though. They just certainly were not designed around sharp RGB output.

Master System had RGB from the get go and similar visuals to the NES. Sure, it's a more powerful console but the visuals are similar enough to make a case in favor of the same composite trickery used on the NES.
The reality is far more simple looking at how Nintendo designs their consoles: Cost-saving.

[orange808]

I believe Bucko specifically mentioned complaints when Koryuu came to market. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[LDigital]

I have a downscale question

If I want to output 240p to a bvm, would a hdmi to vga dac with a vga to bnc cable do the job?

Also in terms of how the final image woild look, would I get the same results downscaling 720p > 240p as say 480p or 1080p to 240p?

[Fed]

I have a downscale question

If I want to output 240p to a bvm, would a hdmi to vga dac with a vga to bnc cable do the job?

Also in terms of how the final image woild look, would I get the same results downscaling 720p > 240p as say 480p or 1080p to 240p?

Make sure you get a quality DAC, would be a pitty to use a cheap one with bad RGB range rendering on a BVM.

[jaffa225man]

I think it's a silly argument that composite/s-video isn't needed in a scaler because people can just RGB mod all their consoles. That's a waste of money, especially if it's a lower priority console, one that you don't use all that often.

Sounds silly, right? But in truth, that's precisely what happened when video game scalers, like the Framemeister, became more popular. Everyone started looking for ways to get RGB out of their consoles, even going to extremes like the NES.
I dont remember the original OSSC being criticized this badly for not having composite/S-Video, people either had to find ways to convert those lower quality signals into the OSSC, or just got into the world of RGB.

I remember Marqs mentioning in the original OSSC thread that composite and S-Video wouldn't be possible to support on it without a transcoder, and that a future version would have to be released to address them. The expansion port on the OSSC Pro puts them in the realm of possibility, so that may explain why people are now voicing their hopes that they will be.

Their lack upon release doesn't diminish how great the OSSC Pro is. The less finicky input chip (often not needing phase adjustment) and the added possibility to use a frame buffer and motion adaptive deinterlacing should be substantial enough reasons for most people to choose to upgrade.

[NewSchoolBoxer]

Sorry if asked before. If I wanted to DIY, how would I obtain the ADV7611 receiver and ADV7513 transmitter? HDMI cartel laid down the banhammer in 2016 to prevent people buying HDMI chips without paying the annual $5k protection fee. At least from DigiKey, Mouser, Arrow etc. official distributors.

AliExpress counterfeit or recycled chips for the win? Some of the DVI+1.3 ones are still floating around but would need a new design to use.

[Paranoid_Andy]

Hey @marqs

I know it was mentioned the Pro can't do 4K, but I was wondering if that was just in scaler mode or would it be possible in pure line double mode or possibly with pixel repetition?

Thanks!

[NewSchoolBoxer]

RF would be sick for the dozens of us that would use it and replace VCRs encoding RF to composite.

Lack of composite/S-Video support in OSSC willed the €103.70 (with VAT) Koryuu into existence that goes composite/S-Video -> digital video -> component and both steps are lossy. To be fair, OSSC would have cost more with full analog video support. Of the analog to digital video chips I'm aware of, none do it all. They fall in 1 of 3 camps: composite/S-Video, composite/S-Video + component, or component + RGB. The RGB ones accept composite (or luma) specifically as sync.

Saying to RGB mod for compatibility must be nice if you sell RGB mods, expensive component or RGB cables or have an outlet to spread referral links. I never liked how all the mods use the cheapest video amp in existence when higher quality (less noise, less color error, more linear gain) ones sit at the $3-5 tier. Scaler warranties don't apply to modded consoles for obvious reasons. I think $15 S-Video cables are the best bang for buck in retro gaming and NES and N64 are 2 of the 4 consoles I play. NES palette is native composite as well.

But yeah the OSSC criticism for lack of composite/S-Video was not anywhere near what I anticipated. Nor was the original 2X's lack of RGB criticized on any real level. It was "the perfect plug and play low latency solution."

Although it's still early stages for them, when S-Video and composite video inputs do become supported, I hope the signal path isn't limited by chroma subsampling (is 4:4:4) because I've never had a solution for that. If I remember right, the Koryuu transcoder (great as an option anyway) does chroma subsampling.

Yes, Koryuu converts to 10-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr with the ADV7280. That feeds the ADV7391 video DAC which can actually output composite, S-Video, component or RGB and the latter two in SD, ED or HD. Why is the MiSTer analog board not using this thing instead of ghetto R2R ladder that can't physically do 8-bit?

Well, composite, S-Video and component are already chroma compressed to 50% or less of luma's bandwidth. One of the Retrotink 2X product descriptions floats that argument for 4:2:2 YCbCr not losing video quality from those three inputs and I agree. Component does have an option for 4:4:4 but I'm not aware of anything that outputs it, or which video chips can sample PbPr at 13.5 MHz to use the extended bandwidth. Even GameCube and Wii's RGB is converted from native 4:2:2 YCbCr.

[Das Muel]

I think it makes perfect sense to offer Composite/RF/S video input as an optional extra. Being born in PAL land (as is Marqs) I've been using RGB scart solely for all my consoles since the late 90s (later on I also used VGA and very occasionally component too). Admittedly I'm not a big Nintendo man although I did have an RGB modded N64 at one time which was relatively inexpensive to buy. Gamecube and beyond are covered by the OSSC Pro's inputs already of course. I have a Pro coming in the post and I wouldn't have wanted to pay the extra money for something I *may* possibly use at some point in the future. $50 sounds quite reasonable for those who need it and I'm sure it will be a high quality transcoder.

[ZellSF]

Gamecube and beyond are covered by the OSSC Pro's inputs already of course.

That's actually an interesting mention, because the Gamecube is probably a s-video only console for a lot of NTSC people. Only PAL Gamecubes output RGB and to get component/HDMI output via the digital port (that not all Gamecubes had) you need to pay 80$ before shipping and taxes.

[VEGETA]

Sorry if asked before. If I wanted to DIY, how would I obtain the ADV7611 receiver and ADV7513 transmitter? HDMI cartel laid down the banhammer in 2016 to prevent people buying HDMI chips without paying the annual $5k protection fee. At least from DigiKey, Mouser, Arrow etc. official distributors.

AliExpress counterfeit or recycled chips for the win? Some of the DVI+1.3 ones are still floating around but would need a new design to use.

you could try LCSC which has both chips and more AD HDMI chips. LCSC is legit and everything in it is authentic so go for it. In case you didn't find some chips anywhere, go to Alibaba and contact some suppliers but this is not guaranteed.

luckily for you, your desired chips exist in LCSC.

(great as an option anyway) does chroma subsampling.
Yes, Koryuu converts to 10-bit 4:2:2 YCbCr with the ADV7280. That feeds the ADV7391 video DAC which can actually output composite, S-Video, component or RGB and the latter two in SD, ED or HD. Why is the MiSTer analog board not using this thing instead of ghetto R2R ladder that can't physically do 8-bit?

can you explain more about mister DAC and why you think it is not good enough?

I plan to make a DAC cheaper than available chips if I could... but how to add csync and so on? which will need maybe opamp adding circuits and buffering if using resistor ladder thing.

adv7343 seems best if you need composite and s-video. but does it need to pick SD\ED\HD manually or can just feed it digital bits and it outputs correctly?

I found other interesting chips such as THS8200 but this one has no support from TI now. it can't do composite and s-video though.

[Das Muel]

That's a fair point about the Gamecube although to be honest I just use a Wii to play my Gamecube games via component or RGB scart (I know they don't output RGB by default in NTSC territories). If I lived in an NTSC territory myself, really loved the Gamecube, couldn't stand to use a Wii instead and was dedicated enough to spend £300+ on a scaler, I'd probably already have one of the HDMI/component dongle things for it already.
Ultimately we're looking at a somewhat Euro-centric device here I guess, but that's understandable seeing as the designer is from Finland. I still think an optional $50 add on is perfectly reasonable.

[VEGETA]

as for gamecube, i went with the easiest solution and got PAL gamecube since it outputs rgb by default. i got rgb scart cable from rgc and it is fantastic. with swiss, you can play all games in their native resolution and fps... no worries.