Are the Sony BVM D24 & D32 truly multi-scan?

[SuperSpongo]

Alright I'm back.

My MiSTer setup has a couple of alternative inis so that I can quickly test 240p, 384p, 480p and 720p. You'll see me navigating the menu and switch from custom 240p modeline (I'm using this in the menu core so that I can have a wallpaper instead of static) to the 384p modeline.

This is what it looks like on a Barco OCM 3346 Multidata II, a midres compatible monitor:
https://youtu.be/oArQHGtGoWs

And this is the D32E1WE:
https://youtu.be/fv0oYpgBGSM

(Please ignore the error message of an unknown option in the ini).

[famiac]

well, that settles the question. thank you!

[SuperSpongo]

You're welcome!

[DejahThoris]

Alright I'm back.

My MiSTer setup has a couple of alternative inis so that I can quickly test 240p, 384p, 480p and 720p. You'll see me navigating the menu and switch from custom 240p modeline (I'm using this in the menu core so that I can have a wallpaper instead of static) to the 384p modeline.

This is what it looks like on a Barco OCM 3346 Multidata II, a midres compatible monitor:
https://youtu.be/oArQHGtGoWs

And this is the D32E1WE:
https://youtu.be/fv0oYpgBGSM

(Please ignore the error message of an unknown option in the ini).

I've finally come back 'round and saw I was asked what the D24 does exactly. The D24 is the same as the D32 here in SuperSpongo's video. I used real hardware and not a mister, but same result. Just can't sync to it.

[LordKirkis]

The D24 and D32 can display many signals well, but certainly not all;

-Pal/RGB N64 is entirely a no go on both sets. Same goes for Pal/RGB Wii.

-The Sega Saturn works, but with some issues on many of its games in the form of a subtle, but very present rainbow banding. This is really unfortunate as Saturn has so many beautiful, sprite based games.

I am sure there are more sync related issues with other consoles, but these are the ones I have personally experienced.

One interesting bit I will note too is that the D32 properly sync's NTSC/RGB N64 expansion slot upgraded games where the D24 could not. Tested games with upgraded resolution were Hybrid Heaven, Resident Evil 2, and Perfect Dark.

[fernan1234]

One interesting bit I will note too is that the D32 properly sync's NTSC/RGB N64 expansion slot upgraded games where the D24 could not. Tested games with upgraded resolution were Hybrid Heaven, Resident Evil 2, and Perfect Dark.

Interesting that there's a difference between the two monitors. I wouldn't generalize too much though since results may be different with different N64 RGB solutions (simple RGB amp, Borti's board, N64Advanced, N64Digital, etc.)

[Josh128]

One interesting bit I will note too is that the D32 properly sync's NTSC/RGB N64 expansion slot upgraded games where the D24 could not. Tested games with upgraded resolution were Hybrid Heaven, Resident Evil 2, and Perfect Dark.

Interesting that there's a difference between the two monitors. I wouldn't generalize too much though since results may be different with different N64 RGB solutions (simple RGB amp, Borti's board, N64Advanced, N64Digital, etc.)

Yes, that makes no sense at all, because all N64 expansion pack does is use 480i for most games, which is exactly the same as 240p-- still 15KHz. Perfect Dark, BTW, still uses 240p with the expansion pack-- all it does is increase texture resolution, doesnt use 480i. This wouldnt affect any monitor at all vs literally any other N64 game.

Has anyone tried using the 5X or GBS-C to line double 384p to 768p and add scanlines? Such a technique would get you perfection (at the cost of some brightness) on a 768p compatible CRT. Ive used CRTEmudriver with 5000 series AMD GPUs to get native 384p60 30fps games on a CRT monitor by outputting them at 384p90 native. Looks beautiful, works on most PC CRTs, and theres no loss of brightness. For 60fps games like VF3 and Daytona 2, you'd need to output 384p120. I think 48KHz capable monitors would work fine for this mode.

[fernan1234]

Has anyone tried using the 5X or GBS-C to line double 384p to 768p and add scanlines? Such a technique would get you perfection (at the cost of some brightness) on a 768p compatible CRT. Ive used CRTEmudriver with 5000 series AMD GPUs to get native 384p60 30fps games on a CRT monitor by outputting them at 384p90 native. Looks beautiful, works on most PC CRTs, and theres no loss of brightness. For 60fps games like VF3 and Daytona 2, you'd need to output 384p120. I think 48KHz capable monitors would work fine for this mode.

The problem with this approach is you're halving motion clarity by having the refresh rate double the source frame rate, as in 60fps games displayed at 120hz. The CRT strobe should match the FPS, which is why 60fps games look (in motion) best on traditional 60hz CRTs. Of course, you can address this by inserting black frames, but this halves your brightness and puts you right back where, say, 384p60 with a scanline filter would have landed you.

[Josh128]

Has anyone tried using the 5X or GBS-C to line double 384p to 768p and add scanlines? Such a technique would get you perfection (at the cost of some brightness) on a 768p compatible CRT. Ive used CRTEmudriver with 5000 series AMD GPUs to get native 384p60 30fps games on a CRT monitor by outputting them at 384p90 native. Looks beautiful, works on most PC CRTs, and theres no loss of brightness. For 60fps games like VF3 and Daytona 2, you'd need to output 384p120. I think 48KHz capable monitors would work fine for this mode.

The problem with this approach is you're halving motion clarity by having the refresh rate double the source frame rate, as in 60fps games displayed at 120hz. The CRT strobe should match the FPS, which is why 60fps games look (in motion) best on traditional 60hz CRTs. Of course, you can address this by inserting black frames, but this halves your brightness and puts you right back where, say, 384p60 with a scanline filter would have landed you.

That only applies for frame doubling 60fps games.

Interestingly, when playing games whose fps is natively 1/2 the refresh rate (ie, any 30fps game), doubling or tripling the refresh rate doesnt affect anything visually as they already exhibit the illusion at native 60Hz, they look identical (in stills and motion) to native with no loss of brightness, but allows it to be displayed on a monitor that cant sync to the native resolution. This works for all 15KHz or 25KHz 30 fps games. I also find the double strobe effect to be minimal for 60fps driving games.

[fernan1234]

Yeah you're right multiplying the refresh rate can work well for 30fps games.

[SuperSpongo]

Interesting that there's a difference between the two monitors. I wouldn't generalize too much though since results may be different with different N64 RGB solutions (simple RGB amp, Borti's board, N64Advanced, N64Digital, etc.)

True, my Borti modded PAL N64 works just fine. N64 Advanced v1.

Semi-related: I do remember having sync issues with a PAL N64 with a "Zerberus" mod, when using an Everdrive to play NTSC Roms on my 20F1E.

[LordKirkis]

Interesting that there's a difference between the two monitors. I wouldn't generalize too much though since results may be different with different N64 RGB solutions (simple RGB amp, Borti's board, N64Advanced, N64Digital, etc.)

True, my Borti modded PAL N64 works just fine. N64 Advanced v1.

Semi-related: I do remember having sync issues with a PAL N64 with a "Zerberus" mod, when using an Everdrive to play NTSC Roms on my 20F1E.

Then it really is specific to the consoles and their mods.

My RGB modded french 64 with original RGB hardware does not work on either the D24 or D32. Also my Tim Worthington NTSC N64 console does but with the expansion slot some games exhibit sync issues when displaying on the D24 even with VCR mode active. Its puzzling.

Also the guy saying the expansion pack doesn’t alter resolution is likely wrong as the N64 from what I read employs a wide variety of resolutions across many games. I think some games even change resolution as soon as you enter in game menus… in fact RE2 may very well be one of those games.

[fernan1234]

Also the guy saying the expansion pack doesn’t alter resolution is likely wrong as the N64 from what I read employs a wide variety of resolutions across many games. I think some games even change resolution as soon as you enter in game menus… in fact RE2 may very well be one of those games.

Yes the expansion pak enable "hi-res" modes (480i) on several games. RE2 can swap between 240p and 480i dynamically throughout different parts of the game, not just the menus.

But the curious thing here is that these hi-res modes are still 15khz like 240p, there is a change in resolution but not a change in the scan rate, which is why we wouldn't expect it to have an effect on sync compatibility.

[Josh128]

Also the guy saying the expansion pack doesn’t alter resolution is likely wrong as the N64 from what I read employs a wide variety of resolutions across many games. I think some games even change resolution as soon as you enter in game menus… in fact RE2 may very well be one of those games.

I suppose Im the guy you are talking about? No, Im not wrong in what I said, you are not understanding what I said. Perfect Dark, Donkey Kong 64, Majoras Mask are expansion pak- required games that dont alter the screen resolution. All those games output 240p only.

Games like Turok 2 and Rogue Squadron have the additional option of 480i output when the expansion pak is used. From the perspective of a CRT monitor, there is no technical difference between 240p and 480i. Every single CRT that can display one can display the other, they are both 15KHz signals. They both light the exact same number of horizontal lines per second. Interlacing is just an optical "trick" that allows more detail to be discerned by the human eye within the same bandwidth.
All 480 is, is 240p that is shifted vertically up/down by half a line thickness ever 1/60th of a second.

[Josh128]

Also the guy saying the expansion pack doesn’t alter resolution is likely wrong as the N64 from what I read employs a wide variety of resolutions across many games. I think some games even change resolution as soon as you enter in game menus… in fact RE2 may very well be one of those games.

I suppose Im the guy you are talking about? No, Im not wrong in what I said, you are not understanding what I said. Perfect Dark, Donkey Kong 64, Majoras Mask are expansion pak- required games that dont alter the screen resolution. All those games output 240p only.

Games like Turok 2, Rogue Squadron, and others have the additional option of 480i output when the expansion pak is used. From the perspective of a CRT monitor, there is no technical difference between 240p and 480i. Every single CRT that can display one can display the other, they are both 15KHz signals. They both light the exact same number of horizontal lines per second. Interlacing is just an optical "trick" that allows more detail to be discerned by the human eye within the same bandwidth.

480i is merely 240p that is shifted vertically up/down by half a line thickness every 1/60th of a second. There is absolutely no reason why an analog CRT would display one but not the other.

[LordKirkis]

we

Also the guy saying the expansion pack doesn’t alter resolution is likely wrong as the N64 from what I read employs a wide variety of resolutions across many games. I think some games even change resolution as soon as you enter in game menus… in fact RE2 may very well be one of those games.

If memory serves me correctly I believe the same can be said of the Ikegami HTM 1917 where it would not properly sync with my TM 64 when pak boosted.

I suppose Im the guy you are talking about? No, Im not wrong in what I said, you are not understanding what I said. Perfect Dark, Donkey Kong 64, Majoras Mask are expansion pak- required games that dont alter the screen resolution. All those games output 240p only.

Games like Turok 2, Rogue Squadron, and others have the additional option of 480i output when the expansion pak is used. From the perspective of a CRT monitor, there is no technical difference between 240p and 480i. Every single CRT that can display one can display the other, they are both 15KHz signals. They both light the exact same number of horizontal lines per second. Interlacing is just an optical "trick" that allows more detail to be discerned by the human eye within the same bandwidth.

480i is merely 240p that is shifted vertically up/down by half a line thickness every 1/60th of a second. There is absolutely no reason why an analog CRT would display one but not the other.

You are off on several details; N64 games have variable resolutions with and without the pak close to 240p/480i but not always exactly that. Incidentally Perfect Dark is not an expansion pak required game, but most of the game would be inaccessible without it. Now when you do use the expansion pak to play Perfect Dark the resolution is increased to 640 x 222. Is that not an oddly specific resolution to you? Other games like Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness get boosted to 490 x 355 while Resident Evil 2 is reported to be upgraded to 480i. But I bet other changes occur when you enter the menu too because in my case sync would briefly be restored in a pak boosted RE2 on a D24.. at least until I enter another area where I would then be back to sync loss.

As Ive said, this particular sync loss “issue”, for one reason or another, is not present on the D32 vs D24 (and Ikegami 1917) for several pak tested games. Its possible these are unrelated to the resolutions but I think we cant reach that conclusion just yet.

[Josh128]

No, Im not off on what I said, because I never cited the internal render resolution of any of the games-- of course they vary, but that is irrelevant as they all still output as progressive or interlaced 15KHz-- other than progressive or interlaced, the output timings dont change. If a game renders at an odd resolution, it will still be centered in the same output resolution. I said the games I mentioned output 240p and not 480i, and they do-- despite using the expansion pak. I also specifically said that 240p and 480i are identical from the viewpoint of an analog TV or monitor, which they are-- and because of that theres no reason that any 15KHz monitor would not display the output of any N64 game.

[LordKirkis]

No, Im not off on what I said, because I never cited the internal render resolution of any of the games-- of course they vary, but that is irrelevant as they all still output as progressive or interlaced 15KHz-- other than progressive or interlaced, the output timings dont change. If a game renders at an odd resolution, it will still be centered in the same output resolution. I said the games I mentioned output 240p and not 480i, and they do-- despite using the expansion pak. I also specifically said that 240p and 480i are identical from the viewpoint of an analog TV or monitor, which they are-- and because of that theres no reason that any 15KHz monitor would not display the output of any N64 game.

It might be irrelevant in most cases right? But I'm not so sure in my case and from my tests. I don't have any answers either. I can say another user here has experienced some sync issues with his N64 and his Ikegami so I doubt this issue is unique to me.

And yes I don't see any reason why the N64 wouldn't sync these signals either because it would seem to be a fairly simple task.. but its never that simple with Sync signals is it.

That aside, and more concerning to me is the weird rainbow banding from the Saturn on both the D24 and D32. I saw a thread here months ago with folks trying to trouble shoot that... I don't believe that got anywhere either. Many tried recapping, or testing multiple consoles and got the same results. As for me I have 2 Saturns; one from Hitachi and another from JVC. Both model 1 and both exhibit the same behavior.. I feel the Hitachi has less of the banding, but I could be wrong on that. What Im referring to when I say rainbow banding is something similar to like jailbars you would see in a Genesis but not quite.. its more wavey and round in formation.

Yeah the name of that thread was "What's Wrong with my Sega Saturn's RGB output on my D32e1wu?" he provides pictures for anyone interested.

[fernan1234]

That aside, and more concerning to me is the weird rainbow banding from the Saturn on both the D24 and D32. I saw a thread here months ago with folks trying to trouble shoot that... I don't believe that got anywhere either. Many tried recapping, or testing multiple consoles and got the same results. As for me I have 2 Saturns; one from Hitachi and another from JVC. Both model 1 and both exhibit the same behavior.. I feel the Hitachi has less of the banding, but I could be wrong on that. What Im referring to when I say rainbow banding is something similar to like jailbars you would see in a Genesis but not quite.. its more wavey and round in formation.

Yes I also noticed this back when I used a D/A24. I don't think it is sync related though. My main guess is that somehow the phosphor stripe pitch of these tubes happens to line up with an internal resolution commonly used by Saturn games in just such a way that causes this rainbowing/jailbar effect. Similar to how moire could happen with some resolutions and dot mask CRT combos (and which is why those often included a moire adjustment setting). I wonder if significant adjustments to the raster sizing particularly horizontally may make a difference.

[LordKirkis]

That aside, and more concerning to me is the weird rainbow banding from the Saturn on both the D24 and D32. I saw a thread here months ago with folks trying to trouble shoot that... I don't believe that got anywhere either. Many tried recapping, or testing multiple consoles and got the same results. As for me I have 2 Saturns; one from Hitachi and another from JVC. Both model 1 and both exhibit the same behavior.. I feel the Hitachi has less of the banding, but I could be wrong on that. What Im referring to when I say rainbow banding is something similar to like jailbars you would see in a Genesis but not quite.. its more wavey and round in formation.

Yes I also noticed this back when I used a D/A24. I don't think it is sync related though. My main guess is that somehow the phosphor stripe pitch of these tubes happens to line up with an internal resolution commonly used by Saturn games in just such a way that causes this rainbowing/jailbar effect. Similar to how moire could happen with some resolutions and dot mask CRT combos (and which is why those often included a moire adjustment setting). I wonder if significant adjustments to the raster sizing particularly horizontally may make a difference.

Oh.. I hadn’t though of that. I will try that! And I think you’re right its likely not related to Sync.

[LordKirkis]

Tested, adjusted horizontal raster size as you suggested and the banding completely disappeared. So I think you were spot on with what the Saturn and D series issue is. This is good to know! Its not an ideal fix since it took reducing size from 112 to 0 so it could go away, but still great to know more about this. So thank you for shedding more light on this.


Edit: Wait! I just tried increasing the size… and less extreme adjustments in that direction cleans up the image a lot more. This might be a viable compromise! In fact a little stretch wont hurt at all! I will create a channel for the Saturn and I think Ill settle on 135 from 112 default H Size. With that I think you have completely solved this issue for me! I should report this to the others who might need to know.

Thanks a lot! .

[fernan1234]

Nice! If you can live with the overscan you can also increase the vertical size some amount to preserve the aspect ratio as much as possible.

[LordKirkis]

Nice! If you can live with the overscan you can also increase the vertical size some amount to preserve the aspect ratio as much as possible.

OH great point!! I will use that to dial it in as best as possible. Thank you again