Are the Sony BVM D24 & D32 truly multi-scan?

[famiac]

Has anyone tried displaying a 24khz rgb signal on a D24 or a D32? what was the result?
Pat Gravier (AKA savon-pat) has told me that these monitors can display ANYTHING. I'd like to know if they are directly compatible with most arcade PCB's or Japanese retro computers like the X68000 or PC-98.

[Dochartaigh]

Has anyone tried displaying a 24khz rgb signal on a D24 or a D32? what was the result?
Pat Gravier (AKA savon-pat) has told me that these monitors can display ANYTHING. I'd like to know if they are directly compatible with most arcade PCB's or Japanese retro computers like the X68000 or PC-98.

"Anything" to Pat is most likely any BROADCAST (i.e. industry-wide, standardized) signal. I.e. mostly just 480i (and PAL equivalent), 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Outside of that you're not going to have much luck with BVM's displaying much of anything else.

Hell, BVM's are well known to have issues with ever-so-slightly out of standard signals which consumer sets (which are also meant to ONLY display broadcast-type signals) will display 24/7 without a single problem. Some examples are Sega Master system on any BVM A-Series, TG16 on a whole bunch of BVM's, 480p from Wii... the list goes on. Most common is a top skew to the image, also called 'flagging', which an Extron RGB box can help with a whole bunch of these issues (but not all).

[buttersoft]

I had it in my head that these did have a range for 25kHz, but i might be wrong. There's a post in the monitor presets thread in the GroovyMAME subforum on arcade controls. Not necessarily definitive, surely these could handle 50Hz, but certainly a good start. The first numbers in each line are the scan range in Hz.

monitor "bvm_d24e1wu_alt", "Sony BVM-D24E1WU - Alternate", "4:3"
crt_range0 15200-20500, 54.70-62.00, 1.500, 4.700, 4.700, 0.602, 0.191, 1.352, 0, 0, 192, 288, 390, 576
crt_range1 30300-35000, 54.70-62.00, 0.500, 2.000, 2.600, 0.128, 0.030, 1.032, 0, 0, 320, 480, 0, 0
crt_range2 30300-35000, 54.70-62.00, 0.500, 2.000, 2.600, 0.030, 0.030, 1.032, 0, 0, 481, 512, 0, 0
crt_range3 42200-49900, 54.70-62.00, 0.800, 0.755, 3.400, 0.067, 0.156, 0.444, 0, 0, 640, 800, 0, 0

I remember some users posting up more info in threads, but whether that got summarised as the above i can't remember.

[RebeL9]

Has anyone tried displaying a 24khz rgb signal on a D24 or a D32? what was the result?
Pat Gravier (AKA savon-pat) has told me that these monitors can display ANYTHING. I'd like to know if they are directly compatible with most arcade PCB's or Japanese retro computers like the X68000 or PC-98.

"Anything" to Pat is most likely any BROADCAST (i.e. industry-wide, standardized) signal. I.e. mostly just 480i (and PAL equivalent), 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Outside of that you're not going to have much luck with BVM's displaying much of anything else.

Hell, BVM's are well known to have issues with ever-so-slightly out of standard signals which consumer sets (which are also meant to ONLY display broadcast-type signals) will display 24/7 without a single problem. Some examples are Sega Master system on any BVM A-Series, TG16 on a whole bunch of BVM's, 480p from Wii... the list goes on. Most common is a top skew to the image, also called 'flagging', which an Extron RGB box can help with a whole bunch of these issues (but not all).

What issues are there with Wii 480p?
Never heard about it.

[famiac]

"Anything" to Pat is most likely any BROADCAST (i.e. industry-wide, standardized) signal. I.e. mostly just 480i (and PAL equivalent), 480p, 720p, and 1080i. Outside of that you're not going to have much luck with BVM's displaying much of anything else.

Yes, i made sure to emphasize to him the picky nature of the D20 and lower monitors but he assured me that the D24 & D32 are different beasts entirely.

[Gara]

My D20F1U certainly doesn't support 24khz. I doubt 24khz is even on Pats radar when it comes to talking about these things. I've only heard about 24khz support on a couple of professional multiformat monitors. The NEC XM29 and JVC DTV line, but I'm not 100% sure on the JVC sets.

[kitty666cats]

My D20F1U certainly doesn't support 24khz. I doubt 24khz is even on Pats radar when it comes to talking about these things. I've only heard about 24khz support on a couple of professional multiformat monitors. The NEC XM29 and JVC DTV line, but I'm not 100% sure on the JVC sets.

Correct about the JVC DTV and NEC. MANY presentation monitors will support 24kHz. The only Sonys that support 24kHz are the old computer style ones like the GVM-2020 etc, none of the PVMs or BVMs do

[Dochartaigh]

My D20F1U certainly doesn't support 24khz. I doubt 24khz is even on Pats radar when it comes to talking about these things. I've only heard about 24khz support on a couple of professional multiformat monitors. The NEC XM29 and JVC DTV line, but I'm not 100% sure on the JVC sets.

Correct about the JVC DTV and NEC. MANY presentation monitors will support 24kHz. The only Sonys that support 24kHz are the old computer style ones like the GVM-2020 etc, none of the PVMs or BVMs do

Except for the BVM-D9 people say (possibly D14 as well), although I've never tried it myself (and those two models are POS overall anyway).

[tongshadow]

I get that the D9 has terrible sync/signal issues with videgames, but why is the D14 a POS? It's essentially a better 14L5, which is already incredibly good.

[Dochartaigh]

I get that the D9 has terrible sync/signal issues with videgames, but why is the D14 a POS? It's essentially a better 14L5, which is already incredibly good.

No, it's not. The D14 has the same sync issues as the D9 (at least my 3ish? of them did, compared to maybe a half dozen D9's). Also sub-par build quality if you've ever opened one – it's fine, but really just more similar to a PVM than a BVM. Would much, much, rather a 14L5 any day of the week (those have given me near zero sync issues).

[famiac]

The only Sonys that support 24kHz are the old computer style ones like the GVM-2020 etc, none of the PVMs or BVMs do

do you have a D24 or a D32? have you tried it?

[tongshadow]

The only Sonys that support 24kHz are the old computer style ones like the GVM-2020 etc, none of the PVMs or BVMs do

do you have a D24 or a D32? have you tried it?

Say "Aaaahhh", it's time to be spoonfed.

[kitty666cats]

The only Sonys that support 24kHz are the old computer style ones like the GVM-2020 etc, none of the PVMs or BVMs do

do you have a D24 or a D32? have you tried it?

Nope, but I do know some folks who tried 24kHz on their D Series. The monitors seem to really only 'like' scan frequencies of SMPTE resolutions. Maybe something like an Extron interface would help with these old JP computers than can output 24kHz like X68000 / PC98 / FM Towns et al? Could be something weird with the sync signals, but I'm pretty sure it's, again, a problem with not being close enough to an SMPTE res.

[famiac]

the premise of the thread is that the D24 and D32 have different electronics / software than the D20. I posted on the forum with the expectation that a fellow member who has used one of those monitors would eventually come forth to report what happens when they connect it to a non-standard video source. Similar experiments have been done by owners of other monitors but not with the D24 or D32 because they are so rare and expensive.

I understand that it's unlikely they will handle 24khz given the case of the D20 and below, but the point is that nobody has really checked. May i remind you all that the DT-V monitors don't officially support 24khz but some of them will display the image anyway (albeit with a forced 16:9 aspect ratio). This was established by experiment. not by looking at a manual.

Say "Aaaahhh", it's time to be spoonfed.

did you think you were being helpful?

[DejahThoris]

the premise of the thread is that the D24 and D32 have different electronics / software than the D20. I posted on the forum with the expectation that a fellow member who has used one of those monitors would eventually come forth to report what happens when they connect it to a non-standard video source. Similar experiments have been done by owners of other monitors but not with the D24 or D32 because they are so rare and expensive.

I understand that it's unlikely they will handle 24khz given the case of the D20 and below, but the point is that nobody has really checked. May i remind you all that the DT-V monitors don't officially support 24khz but some of them will display the image anyway (albeit with a forced 16:9 aspect ratio). This was established by experiment. not by looking at a manual.

Say "Aaaahhh", it's time to be spoonfed.

did you think you were being helpful?

They do not display it.

[Gara]

Similar experiments have been done by owners of other monitors but not with the D24 or D32 because they are so rare and expensive.

I understand that it's unlikely they will handle 24khz given the case of the D20 and below, but the point is that nobody has really checked.

I hope you can get your first hand account of this, but the D24 is about as documented as they come. The D24 is probably the most discussed and tested BVM of all time. The incompatibility of 24khz has come up over the years. If 24khz did work it would be a big deal and documented.

[famiac]

They do not display it.

it appears from your post history that you have one. i'll take your word. care to share what happened when you tried?

The D24 is probably the most discussed and tested BVM of all time.

not in my experience. searching this forum's hardware board for "d24e1wu" returns 47 topics and 197 posts which contain the keyword. searching instead for "d20f1u" we get 81 topics and 276 posts.
changing the search terms to other variations of the monitor's model number does not alter the result.

The incompatibility of 24khz has come up over the years. If 24khz did work it would be a big deal and documented.

i was under the impression that 24khz support was a feature only a few people would care about.

[kitty666cats]

Are you particularly interested in a larger 16:9 CRT capable of 24kHz? I believe there's a handful of presentation monitors capable of it... I think, maybe, this one that was made by Panasonic and rebadged by JVC. Perhaps also some Japanese Sony CRTs (like the Profeel Pro KX-32HV50, some HiVisions, but I'm not certain) - but those would be outrageously expensive to import. I can check with some buddies on Discord for brands/model numbers of some that are reasonably possible to find if you'd like me to!

[NightSprinter]

My D20F1U certainly doesn't support 24khz. I doubt 24khz is even on Pats radar when it comes to talking about these things. I've only heard about 24khz support on a couple of professional multiformat monitors. The NEC XM29 and JVC DTV line, but I'm not 100% sure on the JVC sets.

As an owner of the XM2960, I can say not all XM models supporr the range beteeen 15.75 and 31.5KHz.

[tongshadow]

Are you particularly interested in a larger 16:9 CRT capable of 24kHz?

He's just interested in wasting everyone's time with inane questions, even though the first post already answered his question.

[kitty666cats]

Are you particularly interested in a larger 16:9 CRT capable of 24kHz?

He's just interested in wasting everyone's time with inane questions, even though the first post already answered his question.

Heh, I can't think of many use cases for 16:9 24kHz. Maybe there's some PC-98 games/software that could look cool at 16:9 24kHz? I dunno.

Dochartaigh has a Panasonic DT-M3050W (16:9 presentation monitor) that may likely be capable of 24kHz. Maybe he can test it someday, but good luck finding one!

My buddy from Discord says the Deluxe version of Virtua Racing Arcade is one thing that's 16:9 medium res. Maybe some Laserdisc rips scaled to 24kHz for the lulz would be neat, too. IDK, 16:9 24kHz is a pretty odd desire!

[famiac]

Heh, I can't think of many use cases for 16:9 24kHz. Maybe there's some PC-98 games/software that could look cool at 16:9 24kHz? I dunno.

what would be nice is a monitor that can do it all and do it well. i suppose there is no such thing.

[kitty666cats]

Well, that Panasonic might. There's a handful of other widescreen multiscan presentation monitors out there, but not many.

Also, you could just frickin' letterbox 24kHz to 16:9 on one of the several 4:3 pres monitors that support it if you REALLY need it. Which you don't. Those are all monitors that can "do it all, and do it well", technically.

Whining because "doing it all, and doing it well" apparently needs to be true multiscanning 16:9, and letterboxing on 4:3 won't suffice. But pillarboxing on a 16:9 is fine? lol... you're basically just grasping at straws trying to be negative. Just letterbox your 24kHz that you so desperately need. Don't be doin' big NECs and Mitsubishi Megaviews dirty like that! 4:3 24kHz content (aka 99.9% of it) pillarboxed isn't somehow better than 16:9 letterboxed.

[famiac]

Also, you could just frickin' letterbox 24kHz to 16:9 on one of the several 4:3 pres monitors that support it if you REALLY need it. Which you don't. Those are all monitors that can "do it all, and do it well", technically.

Whining because "doing it all, and doing it well" apparently needs to be true multiscanning 16:9, and letterboxing on 4:3 won't suffice. But pillarboxing on a 16:9 is fine? lol... you're basically just grasping at straws trying to be negative. Just letterbox your 24kHz that you so desperately need. Don't be doin' Mitsubishi Megaviews dirty like that! 4:3 24kHz content (aka 99.9% of it) pillarboxed isn't somehow better than 16:9 letterboxed.

who are you to tell me what i do or don't need? and, what makes you think i'm whining?
this topic poses a simple question whose answer ought to be empirical. you people are being really rude about it.

i don't need your help finding a monitor, thank you. i'm quite happy with the ones i have.

[kitty666cats]

I wasn't being rude at first, I was trying to help. I really didn't like your negative "what would be nice is a monitor that can do it all and do it well. i suppose there is no such thing." after I'd tried pretty hard (since the beginning of the thread) to help you find what you were asking about. There are really nice 4:3 monitors than can achieve what you want, albeit letterboxed. But those aren't good enough? I don't get what makes 4:3 pillarboxed better. Other people in here were rude long before I gave up since you were just nitpicking at a certain point

[famiac]

i didn't intend to come off that way. i was just stating matter-of-factly what i thought was a commonly accepted reality on this forum. i'm under the impression that many users on the hardware board have multiple monitors (in the cases where they can afford it) because there's no one monitor that can do everything.

i appreciate your other posts in the thread. maybe i was too blunt earlier when i asked directly if you had tried experimenting with a D24 yourself.
anyway, i have tried to make it clear what a good answer to my question would look like, and i am honestly fine with waiting for the right person to come along and share the results of their experiments.
or, maybe someday, i'll get a D24 and post here about it.

there's really no rush. i never expected an instant answer.

[Gara]

who are you to tell me what i do or don't need? and, what makes you think i'm whining?
this topic poses a simple question whose answer ought to be empirical. you people are being really rude about it.

i don't need your help finding a monitor, thank you. i'm quite happy with the ones i have.

I hope you're quite happy with the answers you received as well. I sure wouldn't be doing you a favor by checking at this point after reading your responses.

[famiac]

i won't be needing any favors, thanks. the only answer so far that might settle the question came from Dejahthoris. the rest is speculation and drama.

[SuperSpongo]

Geez, many butthurt people in this thread lol
I see where you're coming from. Unfortunately, I don't have any Arcade PCBs, but I test mid-res compatibility with a custom MiSTer modeline. I could test it on my D32, if that helps.

[famiac]

cool. i'd be interested to know what happens when you get around to it.