Dual screen vert Shmups on the DS: would it work?

Generiname · Post by **Generiname** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:24 am

I haven't seen this brought up before and I think about it quite a bit. After playing sonic rush I found that having the action on both screens worked well and felt quite natural after a while and that setup to me, in theory seems like it could also work well for a shmup.

Of course there's the issue that during play half the ship could be stuck on the top screen and the other half on the bottom, and this could cause problems but I want to know what the board thinks of this idea. Do you think it could work?

Finally I could have sworn I actually saw a few screenshots of a dual screen DS shmup in development but I can't remember where I saw them or which board had the relevant thread (it was called 'new DS games'), if anyone knows could you direct me to the screens again?

professor ganson · Post by **professor ganson** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:40 am

Aiming at targets in the upper screen when playing Metroid Pinball is not a problem. I'm cautiously optimistic about the idea.

Xexyz · Post by **Xexyz** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:05 am

The only fault I really see is bullet dodging. What I'm trying to say is that the screen split could make bullet dodging a bit more hectic, especially if the shmup was to be of the manic style.

I still want to see one or two get made.

the2bears · Post by **the2bears** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:30 am

I've thought about this too, and I think it could work if done properly. As said though, bullet dodging might be suspect with a lot of bullets but who knows? I'd be happy for a good quality shmup "to go" on my DS.

Bill

iatneH · Post by **iatneH** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:30 am

Of course I don't really want to step on ideas before they've even been tried... but I just get a feeling it might end up being like PSP Star Soldier, but with a strip of electrical tape or some other opaque material stuck across the middle of the screen.

I see the two screens of the DS as two separate entities, even if the total area is the same as a single larger screen. The bottom line is that my attention is divided no matter how hard I try to look at both. Take Nanostray for example... I can't focus on the top screen when I am trying to choose weapons or scan for weak spots. But at least everything that could possibly kill me is concentrated on one screen, and I *could* give that one screen my undivided attention if it means sticking with one weapon.

But if things are trying to kill me from all directions, and most importantly, from a screen which I can't even see or am not looking at, it might end up being a very frustrating gaming experience.

Generiname · Post by **Generiname** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:31 am

Yeah I don't think a bullet hell shooter would work as well as something with more of an old school feel. Something like Trizeal might fit this concept best.

With Nanostray I found switching weapons would take my concentration away but I've played it a lot since I got it recently and now I just sort of know where the weapon 'buttons' on the touchscreen are. I still pick the wrong weapon sometimes though hehe.

My 'wet dream' would be a port of one of the old Cave games, I figure if DoDonpachi can be done on the psx/saturn it could be done on the DS too but the idea almost certainly 'sounds better on paper'.

I also read an interview with triangle service, milestone and G-rev, and one of them (can't remember which one) said doing a DS game without touchscreen features would be a waste. I just don't understand this personally, given the DS is just about the sole current platform for making 2D games, I don't see why things can't be made or ported without touchscreen features, it's just one part of a great little machine. I'd think doing a TATE shmup using both screens would be utilising the systems features.

Shocky · Post by **Shocky** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:01 am

In Wario Ware Touched! there's this one "boss game", which is a vertical scrolling shmup, extended across both screens. It works, but even with just some ten enemy bullets on the screen it gets quite tricky to estimate what the real trajectories are when diagonal shots cross the area between the screens. A bullet hell would be unthinkable.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:59 am

Shocky wrote:In Wario Ware Touched! there's this one "boss game", which is a vertical scrolling shmup, extended across both screens. It works, but even with just some ten enemy bullets on the screen it gets quite tricky to estimate what the real trajectories are when diagonal shots cross the area between the screens. A bullet hell would be unthinkable.

Damnit, I wanted to say that! Nevermind, that was my feeling too - the gap between the screens is a dangerous area in that minigame. I have to add that moving the ship (the earth) around with the stylus is a nice thing.

And Generiname, I agree with you on the Touchscreen matter. My favourite games on the system are the ones that simply leave the Touchscreen out, like Mariokart, Tetris DS or Castlevania DoS. Then there are great concepts like Kirby Canvas Curse or Trauma Center (haven`t played either one yet). It gets bad when companies try to force some added Touch gameplay which goes horribly wrong in most cases, think of Nanostray - this could have been SUCH a fine game if it wasn`t for the touch-switching (and the broken scoring, but that`s another thing - and the weapons are not even that much different).

Even the small additions in Castlevania where you had to draw symbols on the screen miliseconds after you mashed buttons (which meant picking up the stylus with ninja-speed) was hardly a welcome invention.

I guess they are afraid that people might see a game like Metal Slug on the DS and complain "WHAT ABOUT THE UNIQUE DS FEATURES????" and give it bad reviews. Nonsense! Nintendo got the concept right; Touch games and classic games stand side by side (Warioware Touched and Canvas Curse versus Mariokart and New Super Mario Bros).

Which doesn`t mean I am still waiting for a portable vertical shmup that rocks my socks off - and they NEED to be rocked off since I am wearing them for what seems like forever for that purpose alone!

D · Post by D » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:23 pm

I don't even get the two screens setup at all.
I mean will the Nintendo DS 2 have three screens? Is that what mobile gamers are looking for nowadays. Would that be awesome for current DS owners the prospect of having three screens? Sorry to bash the DS, but the two screen setup is as ridiculous today as it was when it was announced. I cannot think of 1 usefull purpose for the two screen setup. I challenge anyone to come up with even 1 purpose

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:42 pm

D wrote:I don't even get the two screens setup at all.
I mean will the Nintendo DS 2 have three screens? Is that what mobile gamers are looking for nowadays. Would that be awesome for current DS owners the prospect of having three screens? Sorry to bash the DS, but the two screen setup is as ridiculous today as it was when it was announced. I cannot think of 1 usefull purpose for the two screen setup. I challenge anyone to come up with even 1 purpose

Well - while I would happily say goodbye to the top screen and go for a simple, more powerful next Gameboy, I have to say that playing Castlevania DoS is way more comfortable without having to switch to the map screen - same goes for Advance Wars, but I hate that game and a friend of mine just recently stopped making me play it against him. Oh, and the overview screen on Mariokart DS is very helpful to.

But it still looks a bit silly and it still IS a bit silly. And I don`t like the name DS too. Take the DS lite in black, take away the upper screen, replace the Nintendo d-pad with a Saturn d-pad and call it "Nintendo Sega Mega Boy" and I am happy

Arznei · Post by **Arznei** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:19 pm

It would work! But your ship would need to be in cooperation with the stylus, making it far easier to dodge bullets than with a controller.

Halloween Jack · Post by **Halloween Jack** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:54 pm

I think that it would work, but the timing of the game would need to be engineered in accordance with the hardware limitations.

Personally, I would prefer to see the GP2X manufacturers engineer a bespoke tate case for their handheld - vert mame shooters on the move = happy days

Halloween Jack

sjewkestheloon · Post by **sjewkestheloon** » Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:20 pm

personally i though that a horizontal manic shmup using the bottom screen and stylus would be cool. not sure hwat the top screen would be used for (maybe a switch between hori and vert at different points) but having bullet hell in hori form, with lots and lots of bullet herding and a highly visible hit box using the stylus would be great fun imo.

something like progear would make me very very happy.

or the top screen could be really score based and purely display graphical data on performances and graphs etc, or be used as a series of gauges that fill up for charge shots, or medal volcanoes etc.

erm... maybe

Shocky · Post by **Shocky** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:54 am

FrederikJurk wrote: Even the small additions in Castlevania where you had to draw symbols on the screen miliseconds after you mashed buttons (which meant picking up the stylus with ninja-speed) was hardly a welcome invention.
...
Nonsense! Nintendo got the concept right; Touch games and classic games stand side by side (Warioware Touched and Canvas Curse versus Mariokart and New Super Mario Bros).

True, true. I don't even bother with the stylus anymore in Castlevania, I'll just try to draw the symbols with my finger, but it's clumsy and leaves fingerprints on the display. They should have just separated the button action from the stylus sequences, like maybe a boss battle could sometimes be a psychic battle of wits, you wouldn't need to use the buttons and dpad at all but instead you'd have to counter attacks by drawing or moving some pieces or something. Think of the C64 game Paradroid. Hear me, Iga & Konami folks?

The second screen IS useful. It can be used in many ways, try Dr. Kawashima's Brain Training/Brain Age for an example, which you have to play in double-tate (!). The second screen kind of forces designers to use more space for status information and such, which can be nice, don't have to keep switching to separate map or whatever screens.

A manic shmup using only the bottom screen and stylus would be cool. The trouble with that setup might be that the screen is small and the stylus + the fingers holding it would block visibility. Bullets would keep creeping from the dead angle and there would be f-words uttered. I sure hope somebody gives it a try though.

Herr Schatten · Post by **Herr Schatten** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:03 am

Shocky wrote:Think of the C64 game Paradroid.

A DS version of Paradroid in which you could play the mind game on the touch screen using the stylus would rock.

A lot.

roker · Post by **roker** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:10 am

D wrote:Sorry to bash the DS, but the two screen setup is as ridiculous today as it was when it was announced. I cannot think of 1 usefull purpose for the two screen setup. I challenge anyone to come up with even 1 purpose

I felt the same way

but after owning one

I seem to have bought into Nintendo's "gimmick"

besides, it works great in Brain Age and in . . . well it works great in Brain Age

and like another poster said, it's nice to have the map on hand at all times

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:34 am

Arznei wrote:It would work! But your ship would need to be in cooperation with the stylus, making it far easier to dodge bullets than with a controller.

I had the impression that in the Warioware Boss game it made the gameplay actually HARDER then moving the ship around with constant speed and the d-pad; but if was easily the best moment in that game (a lot worse than both WW and WW:Twisted and then some). And a whole lot better then mouse control too, since you actually move your ship with your fingers.

@Halloween Jack: The Gamepark runs with MAME? How fast? Could I play Progear on it?

Halloween Jack · Post by **Halloween Jack** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:34 pm

No idea FrederikJurk. However, Epicenter had this to say about the GP2X:

"MAME emulation is quite excellent, supporting about all games from v0.35 and back."

Further observations can be found at the following thread:

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.ph ... light=gp2x

Good Luck.

Halloween Jack.

Middlemoor · Post by **Middlemoor** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:44 pm

Does that mean it'll only support roms playable versions 0.35 and below?

Halloween Jack · Post by **Halloween Jack** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:56 pm

Hi Middlemoor,

Yes, that's how I read it, but we could do with some expert input from a current owner to be sure. Perhaps we should begin a new thread and invite Epicenter to expand upon the levels of mame support?

Cheers

Halloween Jack

df0notfound · Post by **df0notfound** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:07 pm

D wrote:I don't even get the two screens setup at all.
I mean will the Nintendo DS 2 have three screens? Is that what mobile gamers are looking for nowadays. Would that be awesome for current DS owners the prospect of having three screens? Sorry to bash the DS, but the two screen setup is as ridiculous today as it was when it was announced. I cannot think of 1 usefull purpose for the two screen setup. I challenge anyone to come up with even 1 purpose

Something like metroid, the touch screen is an input device and the top screen is what you actually look at.

I hate to say it too but in Castlevania the map on the top screen saves so much time. However on Kirby I never look at it at all.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:50 pm

Whether or not it would work is indeed an interesting question-I can only say that I think that it would work a lot better on the new DS Lite, since the screens are closer together.

Regardless, though, I don't think we're going to see anymore shmups on the DS. We got Nanostray, which I love, but unless we get more Euro-shmups, forget it-most Japanese shmup developers seem content to ignore handheld gaming systems in favor of cell-phone ports.

Blue · Post by **Blue** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:34 pm

What about a Hunters-esque setup? The gameplay could be on the top screen, and ship movement and HUD elements could be confined to the bottom screen. This would remove thumb/stylus blind spots, but allow stylus movement.

Another thought is that this could work with a turret-style shmup; the D-pad could control movement, and the stylus could control weapon fire.

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:00 am

dave4shmups wrote:Whether or not it would work is indeed an interesting question-I can only say that I think that it would work a lot better on the new DS Lite, since the screens are closer together.

Regardless, though, I don't think we're going to see anymore shmups on the DS. We got Nanostray, which I love, but unless we get more Euro-shmups, forget it-most Japanese shmup developers seem content to ignore handheld gaming systems in favor of cell-phone ports.

In this case the games would need modes for the normal DS and the lite considering the space between the screens. I sold my normal DS, so I can`t check it - are you sure about the spacing? I mean, there are some other games like Yoshi Touch&Go that use both screens for vertical gameplay; wouldn`t that be a problem?

On Nanostray: I said some bad things about that game in the past, but I gave it another try and now I am really loving it too; the graphics and especially the music are so charming I can look over the big gaping holes that are the flaws in it.

I guess Shinen are fighting their way upwards - maybe the next shooter will be THE portable shmup. It´s just a bit weird they put so much japanese letters in Nanostray, and even their company name is giving me the impression that they want to hide the fact that this is NOT a japanese game. But that´s typically german - too ashamed to show that you come from germany. I don`t care as long as they continue to make nice little shmups with soundtracks that beat 95% of the other shmup music.

dave4shmups · Post by **dave4shmups** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:13 am

FrederikJurk wrote:
dave4shmups wrote:Whether or not it would work is indeed an interesting question-I can only say that I think that it would work a lot better on the new DS Lite, since the screens are closer together.

Regardless, though, I don't think we're going to see anymore shmups on the DS. We got Nanostray, which I love, but unless we get more Euro-shmups, forget it-most Japanese shmup developers seem content to ignore handheld gaming systems in favor of cell-phone ports.
In this case the games would need modes for the normal DS and the lite considering the space between the screens. I sold my normal DS, so I can`t check it - are you sure about the spacing? I mean, there are some other games like Yoshi Touch&Go that use both screens for vertical gameplay; wouldn`t that be a problem?

On Nanostray: I said some bad things about that game in the past, but I gave it another try and now I am really loving it too; the graphics and especially the music are so charming I can look over the big gaping holes that are the flaws in it.

I guess Shinen are fighting their way upwards - maybe the next shooter will be THE portable shmup. It´s just a bit weird they put so much japanese letters in Nanostray, and even their company name is giving me the impression that they want to hide the fact that this is NOT a japanese game. But that´s typically german - too ashamed to show that you come from germany. I don`t care as long as they continue to make nice little shmups with soundtracks that beat 95% of the other shmup music.

Yeah, I agree with you on Shinen; I'd love to see them put out another shmup. Even Iridion 3D, which I don't like, had incredible music-in fact, you can actually buy the OST online.

At any rate, IGN lists Raid Over River as a DS release; TBA. These screens look pretty shmuppy!:

http://media.ds.ign.com/media/788/788110/imgs_1.html

the2bears · Post by **the2bears** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 7:04 am

D wrote:I don't even get the two screens setup at all.
I mean will the Nintendo DS 2 have three screens? Is that what mobile gamers are looking for nowadays. Would that be awesome for current DS owners the prospect of having three screens? Sorry to bash the DS, but the two screen setup is as ridiculous today as it was when it was announced. I cannot think of 1 usefull purpose for the two screen setup. I challenge anyone to come up with even 1 purpose

I disagree. I've got one, had it for over a year now, and I love it. To each their own.

Bill

Post by **Shatterhand** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:14 am

FrederikJurk wrote:
dave4shmups wrote:It´s just a bit weird they put so much japanese letters in Nanostray, and even their company name is giving me the impression that they want to hide the fact that this is NOT a japanese game. But that´s typically german - too ashamed to show that you come from germany. .

This reminds me of Kaiko, an Amiga game-developer team, which I believe was also based on Germany.

http://hol.abime.net/search.php?N_ref_developer=325

They were european, but did everything to make us believe they were actually japanese. When I first played their first game, Gem'X, I actually believed they were indeed a Japanese developer.

Well.. they aren't exactly like Shinen, because they only made one shmup, and it was an awesome shmup, not just an above average one

Frederik · Post by **Frederik** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:29 am

The guys that did Apidya did that, too. Weird.