Is gameplay no longer original?

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:37 pm

ahnslaught wrote:I can only think of two gameplay innovations since the industry went 3d crazy - one good, one bad.

Within 3D gaming, or for gaming as a whole? I could see the first argument (though I'd hugely disagree), but not the second.

The second one, which I absolutely hate, are unlockables. I don't know if this would even classify as a gameplay innovation, but since it's a pretty common way to try to extend the life of a game, I thought it fits. At its simplest form, it's just an excuse to try to get you to play the same crap over and over again. Other crappy games force you to look around every single nook and cranny to find something - gee what fun that is!

Rare, Nintendo and Sega were pulling this shit long before 3D became the norm (fuck Donkey Kong Country, fuck Yoshi's Island, and fuck Sonic 3 & Knuckles for the eventual effect they had).

Post by **Shatterhand** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:48 pm

I dunno if that's what are you talking about or not, but trying to finish a game with 100% ìt's a different thing of keep on playing to unlock stuff.

Usually, finishing a game with 100% means a challenge for the player. Something that will need some skill to do.

Unlockables are just stuff to make people keep playing the game even when they got incredibly bored of it, just to justify "Value for money" or something. Like "Hey, I played this for 100 hours, now I can play with big heads!" or something this stupid. It's the way the developers found to make the games "Last longer" when they just begun developing games devoid of any challenge.

Every game with unlockables should have some way to unlock everything with a cheat code.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 4:34 pm

You couldn't see all the levels in either Yoshi's Island or S3&K without collecting everything first.

Benjamin · Post by **Benjamin** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:05 pm

sethsez wrote:Rare, Nintendo and Sega were pulling this shit long before 3D became the norm (fuck Donkey Kong Country, fuck Yoshi's Island, and fuck Sonic 3 & Knuckles for the eventual effect they had).

Unlockables then (at least in Yoshi's Island) help expand the gameplay and are an interesting and worthwhile goal on their own. Collecting trivial items just to artificially extend length is stupid. Plus, platformers are routinely not as time intensive as, say, an RPG's ridiculous requirements. It'll take me what? Ten minutes to clear a level 100% in Yoshi's Island at worst, but killing off 300 stupid copters in Advance Wars Duel Strike just is dumb and a waste of time. Now, thanks to an idiot friend who broke my DS and some games, I get to waste all those dozens of hours again just to unlock the same junk regardless of time invested or skill level. Yoshi's Island, on the other hand, won't take long to 100% due to the skill which carries over, making those secondary goals meaningful and worthwhile.

ahnslaught · Post by **ahnslaught** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:32 pm

sethsez -

Oh, I meant more recently, within 3d gaming. I mean, I'm a fan of stealth action games, but it would be awfully dumb to say that that's all that's happened in 30+ years of video games, eh?

Onto my second point, Benjamin and shatterhand basically said all that I wanted to say. Sorry if I wasn't clear (I'm not even sure if this explanation makes sense), but I was talking about crap you get for extended playthroughs and junk like that - like a new costume for having played a game 4 times straight. However, I'm not talking about stuff like metroid or Castlevania games, where exploration and discovering things is the whole point of the game. In those settings, I have no problem with having the 100% clear give you a special ending or whatever. Again, I'm not completely sure if there's an explainable difference, but there is to me. If anyone's getting what I'm saying and can give a better definition, please do...I'd appreciate it.

The initial length of a game has drastically increased, so that it's stupid to have someone play it over and over again. Even my favorite RPG of all time, xenogears, I've only played through once in the almost 10 years I've owned it, and only recently have I wanted to play it again because normally, I can't find the time to devote 70+ hours into it. Do I want to play it again just to dig around craploads of barrels and suffer through nonsensical fetch quests to see a special item or whatever on the second playthrough just to get a 100% clear? Hell no - I just want to play it again for the amazing story.

I mean, if you enjoy unlockables (i.e. items, costumes, new options, whatever), it's cool - you surely get more money's worth out of games than I do. However, even if it's part of the landscape now, I still find it a complete worthless feature.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 6:42 pm

I dunno, I have to say that I find the three different kinds of collectables in Yoshi's Island to be an obnoxious way to extend the playing time, and the one big flaw with that game.

Andi · Post by **Andi** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:50 pm

My thought on unlockables is that they actually serve to limit my enjoyment of a game. Take the N64 Perfect Dark or Timesplitters 2 for example, both had extra multiplayer levels, characters, and weapons to unlock. Even though I paid $50 for a game, I still have to work in order to use all the game's features.

Fuck that, I should be able to do everything I want right from the get go. What if I don't want to play the single player mode? Should that really force me to only enjoy half of what the multiplayer mode has to offer? I'm tired of developers telling me how to play my games.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:13 pm

The conversations certainly lived up to your average JRPG.

Can't speak for the Engrish version, as I've never seen it, but the Japanese version was not that bad. From a programming perspective, the dialogue is broken up into parts that are natural to break in Japanese, albeit rather cheesy and over dramatic at times.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Fri Jun 09, 2006 10:31 pm

I don't mean the writing, I mean the level of interaction.

Dale · Post by **Dale** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:13 am

Andi Said- I can tell that you don't play that many other game genres. Sure, every game innovates within its boundaries, but the core game play formula of shooters is completely unchanged. Adding a shield reflect system, or some scoring gimmick isn't a terrible amount of innovation.

.[/quote]

What else you want Shmup developers to do? their working with a flat constantly scrolling game play space that must have no rest points and lot's of shooting dodging. Sure FPS's probaly evolved a bit more but shmups don't have a whole 3-D world to work with nor could they make it as long or make use of more complex multiplayer elements or weapon system's. For what it's worth shmup developers have done a great job inovating for what little flexibility and complexity the Shmup type of game will allow.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:25 am

He's not saying shmups haven't evolved at all, or that they should evolve more. He was replying to the claim that shmups have evolved more than any other genre, which is just stupid.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 10:41 am

sethsez wrote:I don't mean the writing, I mean the level of interaction.

Different cultures, different levels of interaction. (If you're referring to the conversations within the game). If you're referring to interaction between the player and the world... well, to each his own.

The other one I was going to add was Pikmin. I think both of them are great, replayable games.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:38 pm

I don't see what culture has to do with it. There are plenty of Japanese games with dialog trees.

Once again, I am not talking about the content of the conversations. I am talking about the fact that you press a button and then a conversation happens over which you have no control. That's fine for Final Fantasy or Dragon Quest, but for a game like Shenmue there should be far more interaction with other people than there is. I mean, yes, they made immaculately detailed drawers in the kitchen, but frankly I'd trade that to actually have some say in, well, what Ryu says. Otherwise, yes, it's just like the most detailed JRPG town ever.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:45 pm

Well, in 2 you got a few choices on the conversations (in a few places) but I'm fairly certain that was due to space constraints. With every single thing voiced, there's only so much that every character in the game was able to say.

Perhaps if they are all repressed in a set on Blu Ray....

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:00 pm

Eh, if LucasArts could do it in 1993, Sega should have been able to do it in 2000.

Benjamin · Post by **Benjamin** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:01 pm

sethsez wrote:Eh, if LucasArts could do it in 1993, Sega should have been able to do it in 2000.

Ryo's too dull a character to have an interesting dialogue selection though.

-- Do you know where I can find sailors?
-- Have you seen a black car drive by on the day it snowed?
-- Do you know who is Lan Di?

He really doesn't interact with any real characters with much depth, either. Even a Sakura Taisen style LIPS system couldn't make the dialogue and plot an interesting experience.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:40 pm

I agree that there isn't much to work with, but when most of the plot is advanced through conversations, you'd think a game so heavily focused on detail would actually pay attention to them.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:55 am

You guys should try living in Japan for a while.... Yokosuka of all places. REALLY interesting... loads to talk about. </sarcasm>

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 3:30 pm

Well if there isn't much to talk about there, it probably wasn't the best idea to set a game there that's advanced mostly through conversation, now was it?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:34 pm

No, it was, because Shenmue is awesome.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:27 pm

I guess if you wanted the most detailed JRPG town ever, it delivered.

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:43 pm

I'm not sure what it has in common with a JRPG town besides it being a town. I also like small RPG towns, so Shenmue having "the most detailed JRPG town ever" would go contrary to what I can stomach. And it's awesome.

sethsez · Post by **sethsez** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 8:54 pm

Rob wrote:I'm not sure what it has in common with a JRPG town besides it being a town.

The conversations being totally hands-off and there being extremely little physical interaction with anything (once you've left your house, of course). The main difference is all the extra generic people walking around without their own original responses.

GaijinPunch · Post by **GaijinPunch** » Sun Jun 11, 2006 9:55 pm

sethsez wrote:Well if there isn't much to talk about there, it probably wasn't the best idea to set a game there that's advanced mostly through conversation, now was it?

Indeed, I thought it was dumb, from the get go. From what I understsand, there's not a huge Chinese influence. (American, yes, obviously - tons of bases). Chinatown in Yokohama would've been a better idea, but I doubt they could've handled the scope of a project like that right off the ground.... at least making it look real.