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 Post subject: Re: EP 29: Midtier Are People Too with KZ the Kusoplayer
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:23 pm 


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Been catching up to the current episode over the last few weeks.

Very interesting guests in combination with the right questions, and no off-topic rambling, have kept me hooked. Also appreciate your efforts/brainstorming towards making the genre more popular, while giving some fresh perspectives.

Congrats btw on your DDP 2-ALL! :) After all the gradual buildup and your comments about it.. can't say this didn't affect me when I saw it. Maybe someday, I'll manage that too *dreams*... well, we'll see :mrgreen:

I'll definitely keep following along.


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 Post subject: Re: EP 29: Midtier Are People Too with KZ the Kusoplayer
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:49 pm 


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Hey my dude! :-D I'm always happy to hear when people are going through and catching up on episodes ha. I'm glad you've found the show engaging. What's funny is that I'm not super strict about staying on topic, but since there is so much to talk about regarding shmups it always ends up naturally turning out pretty on topic. I'm really happy with how this episode turned out, I felt like KZ and I were able to articulate a pretty tricky discussion topic.

I'm really glad to hear that you enjoyed watching the 2-All finally happen. It's funny to think of the journey from a listener's perspective, as I'm sure it did have a ton of build up considering how much I talked about it. At the same time though, playing DDP was like 80% of my freetime, so it's not like I could avoid talking about it and talk about other games ha, DDP was pretty much all I played.

It's cool to hear that you're feeling inspired! After my experience getting the 2 all, I definitely feel that it is possible for most players, it just takes that persistence and determination. A year and a half ago I thought I was years and years away from a 2-all, so if you just keep gradually pushing forward I think you'll make progress faster than you would think, it just takes a ton of playtime ha.

Cheers!
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 Post subject: Re: EP 29: Midtier Are People Too with KZ the Kusoplayer
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 4:42 pm 


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Haha yeah, when catching up it really feels like time travel and you're unwinding a story through the course. For instance, this was especially fun to me with Stunfest, when I was listening to the 2018 episode, having in the back of my mind, that Stunfest'19 had already concluded and you had made an episode discussing it also. Subsequently tracked down the live demonstrations n' stuff (which of course blew me away)... sure was awesome being able to, well, sorta retroactively participate that way. :D

By the way, any chance you might list the intermission tracks again like you did a few pages back (in case you have it readily at hand)?


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 Post subject: Re: EP 29: Midtier Are People Too with KZ the Kusoplayer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:22 pm 


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Hey man!

Sorry for the delayed replay. It's awesome that you are going through old episodes and checking out the videos and events we discussed on the show. I think that can be a really run experience to relate podcast episodes to each other and there are times where I do try to do just that when I am making them, so that's awesome!

Yeah, I don't know why I'm such a lazy dude when it comes to listing the intermission tracks, other than posting an ep takes about an hour between writing descriptions and putting the post in all these different places. That being said though, I should stop cutting corners so, moving forward, I will start listing all the tracks in the episode descriptions ha.

Cheers!
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 Post subject: Re: EP 29: Midtier Are People Too with KZ the Kusoplayer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 4:18 pm 


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Hey no worries, and it's awesome that you plan including the tracks now. Cheers!


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 Post subject: Re: EP 29: Midtier Are People Too with KZ the Kusoplayer
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 6:23 pm 



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Just a brief one to say that I feel like this podcast really speaks directly to my current thinking at times! This recent ep (and the last one) particularly hit home, very pertinent and insightful discussion. I'm relatively new to shmups myself, only been playing for about eighteen months or so and only really discovered my (obsessive) love for Cave games this year, and I'm well and truly over the honeymoon period of being an actual noob trying every single game out. I've kind of settled on my tastes and I do love these games but I also feel that my approach is sometimes antithetical to having fun.

Clippa, of this parish, said on the Cane and Rinse forums that I play like I'm in training, and that's probably fair. I've kind of reached a point though where entry level play is unsatisfying and, to be honest, improving over months of unfocused play doesn't suit either my personality or lifestyle. I feel like when I sit down to play for a couple of hours, I want to make measurable progress, even if it's just getting slightly more consistent with one link on DOJ. In the process, though, I've possibly squeezed some of the joy out of just playing and massively succumbed to reset fever.

Thankfully, I've kind of broken through that mindset and I've decided that I will keep one game I play in that way (DOJ, my absolute favourite and a work in progress until my faculties fail me) and everything else I'll just play for fun and, hopefully, an eventual 1CC. It does mean, though, that I feel somewhat out of the community and the conversation because there's no 'achievement' to speak of for the most part. Likewise, even with my DOJ progress (standing on the shoulders of Juju Kenobi, to be frank), I feel like whatever I 'achieve' will be fairly bog standard around these parts and therefore not worth mentioning. That said, I should say, in fact, that plenty of folks from the broader shmup community on Twitter have been really encouraging and supportive.

Anyway, just wanted to jot down a few thoughts prompted by recent play and reflection, and the last two eps of the show. Please do keep it up, it's lamentably something very niche but the quality is consistent and superb. I wonder whether you'd ever consider a feedback/questions section to encourage a bit more community interaction? Anyway, keep doing what you're doing and all the best.


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 Post subject: Re: EP 30: Shmup Cheating w/GG Maximo (Part 1)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:09 pm 


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The 30th episode of the show: Episode XXX: Shmup Cheating and Score Verification, w/ GG Maximo (part 1), is complete!

Image


Here is the link to the soundcloud:

https://soundcloud.com/user-306325657


On this spicy 30th ep of the podcast (renamed Guilty Gear style to be work friendly, ha), GG Maximo and I talk about the state of/history of cheating in shmups, and how this compares to the current firestorm that is cheating in speedrunning.

Tracks:
Opening = Swans: Mother of the World
2nd = Bomberman 64: Second Attack Metal cover by ToxicEternity
3rd = Lower Nofair Metal Cover by Steamage (I learned to play this on guitar in highschool, ha)
Closing = Super Mario RPG, Battle with Smithy metal cover byRichaadEB
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 Post subject: Re: EP 30: Shmup Cheating w/GG Maximo (Part 1)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:17 pm 


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FALSIFICARE! J'ACCUSE! :o

A fascinating and prickly subject, both the real and the imagined. Image (we got a quality minor thread meme out of that guy over in Off Topicshire :cool:)
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 Post subject: Re: EP 30: Shmup Cheating w/GG Maximo (Part 1)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:37 pm 


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Nice topic. I'm listening right now, and you use the term (or something that sounds like) "TAS" a lot. Can you explain the meaning or what it stands for if it's an acronym?


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 Post subject: Re: EP 30: Shmup Cheating w/GG Maximo (Part 1)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:03 pm 


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Tool Assisted Speedrun is what it originally stands for. Basically using emulator hax (like going frame-by-frame, invincibility cheats, rewind) to always have that 'perfect' run. TAS can be its own art as some people have pushed TAS's to interesting extremes, but the concept is obviously anathema to the shmup mindset of 1 credit, continuous play, and skill demonstration.

Listened to about half so far, and I am glad to have a new ep to digest! I share in the World of Longplay hate :wink:, especially when you leverage your 10+ year audience and view-count into showing off leet 'skills' like

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(thanks to BIL for his prudence in saving this incredible display of raw dodging talent)
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 Post subject: Re: EP 30: Shmup Cheating w/GG Maximo (Part 1)
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:41 pm 


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Yeah, I have no problem with TAS (Tool Assisted Score-run) as a concept. But TAS videos need to be clearly and immediately identified as such. I think it's really shady to have a huge channel full of TAS and then pass them off as legit runs, where people in the comment sections often have no idea that runs are a complete sham. It's even worse in the case of World of Longplays, because the strategies on display are stupid and no real-time player can actually use them to learn.
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 Post subject: Re: EP 30: Shmup Cheating w/GG Maximo (Part 1)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:12 am 


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I don't really have a problem with World of Longplays - the point of the channel is to provide footage of the games rather than to show off player skill, and I don't think it's been ambiguous about that. Labeling everything as TAS would just confuse people who aren't familiar with that a TAS is and isn't relevant to the channel's audience anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: EP 30: Shmup Cheating w/GG Maximo (Part 1)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 1:29 am 


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I think what world of longplays does is disingenuous to the viewers and players and their ambiguity about whether or not the runs are cheated is certainly intentional. It s the option select. If the world of longplays sincerely wanted to show a game s gameplay, they d show actual gameplay, not fantastical TAS runs that brute force their way though without useful strategy.
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 Post subject: Re: EP 30: Shmup Cheating w/GG Maximo (Part 1)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:25 am 


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If the people running World of Longplays were to learn every game in detail before posting a video, they'd have maybe 10% of their coverage, if even that, which I would see as a disservice to its audience. I wouldn't look to the channel for strategies or tutorials, but it's great for all these "help me remember this game from my childhood" threads where you need to look up the content of every game you can think of. For better or worse, I doubt the people who watch these longplays and get use out of them care at all whether the longplay was "cheated" as long as you're not straight up modifying the game content. There's a time and place for obsessing over "player skill," and I don't think this is it.
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 Post subject: Re: EP 30: Shmup Cheating w/GG Maximo (Part 1)
PostPosted: Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:43 am 


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Interesting stuff. I also recently found that VixyNyan thread. Seems like they had to alternate between Start and A to pause/unpause. Quite impressive!

I can think of some other ways to cheat: Save-stating, running a game slow, screenshot editing.
I'm nearly sure this vid uses invincibility (original post):
Bananamatic wrote:
this one is much better
just dont fucking turn it into a witch hunt and don't comment on it please

it feels like i'm watching some lost footage that was never meant to be watched
Absolutely horrific :evil:
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 Post subject: Re: EP 30: Shmup Cheating w/GG Maximo (Part 1)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:31 pm 


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The WoL thing I definitely percieve as a nuisance. I don't take an issue with player skill being presented misleadingly or anything like that, or with the note that there'd probably be much less videos if all games were played in realtime (or it'd take much longer for them to appear, at least), which I wholeheartedly agree with. :)

It's just that TAS gameplay is not (clearly) labelled as such. I don't have an overview on whether the situation has improved recently, but I remember often seeing replies below videos from the uploader or video creator being like "Yes, this is TAS.". And the description often not giving a clear indication towards that question. The best way I think would be to put the distinction right in the video title.

...why is this "problematic"? The problem arises if you watch these videos in hunt for strategy ideas to incorporate in your play on console. Sometimes, you can expose a TAS just from watching due to certain gameplay bits, sometimes you can't realistically, even less so when you're new to the game at hand. And when you actually try it yourself you can't help but feel a bit mocked when you notice that some of it doesn't really work in realtime / is unviable due to being way too risky. For that reason I think it doesn't harm to become a bit wary (I certainly did over time). It's not a huge deal to me but it's certainly an annoyance.


About the pause buffering cheating method you discussed, that's really interesting! A small, kinda off-topic anecdote of mine, I've played Super Smash Bros. Brawl's Home Run Contest mode competetively for a few years - yes, of all things! That mode could get surprisingly complex and addicting. Good times, good times... :lol:

In that mode, pause buffering is used extensively - not as a cheating method - but as an universally accepted aid to actually manage to pull off the high-tier strategies that would otherwise require very rapid and/or frame perfect inputs. There of course were players that refrained from doing it because they couldn't or didn't want to for various reasons.
I made this video once to demonstrate to peers how it looks in realtime (see 2nd half).

With HRC, although being fundamentally different obviously, I've noticed many similarities to shmups, that also came to mind e.g. when reading the recent JPN scorekeeping article!

Anyways, interesting episode, looking forward to the 2nd part!


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 Post subject: Re: EP 30: Shmup Cheating w/GG Maximo (Part 1)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 6:52 pm 


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Ha that's awesome man! Thanks for tuning and thanks for the video, that actually helped me understand how pause buffering works better. :-D I can now see how it would give you the ability to plan out your movements by buffering inputs and such.

Cheers!
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 Post subject: Re: EP 30: Shmup Cheating w/GG Maximo (Part 1)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 14, 2019 7:38 pm 


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This was a fun listen (I completely missed out on the cheating drama/trolling during TRP-STGT, I must have bot paid attention).

As a minor aside, through possibly a programming oversight (or forgetting to remove a debug tool), frame advance is left in on the PC Engine remake of Darius II, Super Darius II. No one would ever mistake it for playing authentically (unless you were a skilled editor), but you can advance the game one frame at a time after pressing the pause button. But why? As you and maximo mention in the ep - the rewards are so low for this community.
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