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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:04 pm 


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this one is much better
just dont fucking turn it into a witch hunt and don't comment on it please

it feels like i'm watching some lost footage that was never meant to be watched


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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:06 pm 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
What next, claiming that savestating your way to a victory counts as a 1CC?

What's next is claiming that you've beaten the game after using a dozen continues... oh wait.

Also, I dunno about shmups, but people seem perfectly content to savestate their way through other games, though it's understandable if, for example, you're just playing an RPG for the story.
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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:16 pm 


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Shepardus wrote:
BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
What next, claiming that savestating your way to a victory counts as a 1CC?

What's next is claiming that you've beaten the game after using a dozen continues... oh wait.

Also, I dunno about shmups, but people seem perfectly content to savestate their way through other games, though it's understandable if, for example, you're just playing an RPG for the story.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9vD-wHluug

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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:17 pm 


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Bananamatic wrote:
it feels like i'm watching some lost footage that was never meant to be watched


Oh wow, I remember that channel. It's so gloriously baffling.
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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:22 pm 


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Yeah I remember this too well, good ol' longplays have some priceless moments too: "Phew, that was a close one!"


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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:38 pm 


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Longplays bore the shit out of me. They're either done with an invulnerability hack, which is either because they want to show off the second loop of a game like DoDonpachi or the true final boss of Giga Wing, or they're done with savestates, which means the player usually has no idea what they're doing and generally results in the player doing exceptionally badly when it comes to scoring tactics.

I mean sure, you get to 'see' the entire game in a TAS'd longplay, but it looks nothing like how it'd be played by someone who actually knows what they're doing, and that makes it boring.

It's even more confusing because some people do longplays legitimately so sometimes it was actually done by someone via skill, but more commonly you'll get Youtube commenters on longplays saying things like "You're really skilled!" because the longplay isn't clearly marked as Tool-Assisted (which should be done for any TAS video, imo).
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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:44 pm 


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Bananamatic wrote:
this one is much better
just dont fucking turn it into a witch hunt and don't comment on it please

it feels like i'm watching some lost footage that was never meant to be watched

http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?video1=h ... thorName=s


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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:45 pm 



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Any reason for pause abuse demonstration on Hibachi instead of Inbachi? Is Inbachi actually hard enough that not even pause abuse would save most people?


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 Post subject: Re: ----
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:27 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:47 am 


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Bananamatic wrote:
this one is much better
just dont fucking turn it into a witch hunt and don't comment on it please

it feels like i'm watching some lost footage that was never meant to be watched


what the christ
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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:10 am 


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BareKnuckleRoo wrote:
Longplays bore the shit out of me. They're either done with an invulnerability hack, which is either because they want to show off the second loop of a game like DoDonpachi or the true final boss of Giga Wing, or they're done with savestates, which means the player usually has no idea what they're doing and generally results in the player doing exceptionally badly when it comes to scoring tactics.

I mean sure, you get to 'see' the entire game in a TAS'd longplay, but it looks nothing like how it'd be played by someone who actually knows what they're doing, and that makes it boring.

It's even more confusing because some people do longplays legitimately so sometimes it was actually done by someone via skill, but more commonly you'll get Youtube commenters on longplays saying things like "You're really skilled!" because the longplay isn't clearly marked as Tool-Assisted (which should be done for any TAS video, imo).


Longplays are meant for just showing parts of the game. There's really no need for that with shmups because there's tons of good replays out there and anyone can just credit feed through them anyway. The only time I use longplays is if there's a cutscene or something that I want to show to a friend real quick, because most replays tend to skip those.

Longplays are better for adventure games, rpgs, etc. where you might want to quickly see or link to one particular cutscene or setpiece out of a fairly long game. They're not really meant for entertainment, they're just cataloging the game basically.
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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:19 am 


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Blinge wrote:
That ganelon's wall o'text in which he admits to using pause abuse in many of his 1cc's, of which there are apparently over 100.
Remove from scoreboards.
Remove from forum.


I do get the point Ganelon was trying to make there though, about how if it isn't explicitly stated in the rules then the joke's on us. That is certainly how it's done in the FG community.

However I don't think anyone should expect to be respected for that kind of play. Pausing was for sure never intended to be used for gameplay assistance, it literally only exists for player convenience. I don't really understand why someone would even want to learn a game that way, to me the point of shmups is to become a badass at a badass game. Who watches someone pause the game repeatedly and thinks "Damn son! Those some mad pausing skills!" Even if you make the claim that other peoples opinion of your play is irrelevant, only the end result matters, don't you at least have personal pride?

If you find something ridiculously broken in a fighting game such as Guile's infamous tick throw and use it to win a tournament are you really proud of that? Maybe you did the community a service by exposing it and getting it banned, but it would be pathetic to try to pass it off as "mad skillz". Why not simply expose it to the community and try to get the rules changed before it ruins an event people have been looking forward to and organizers have put a ton of work into? Did Tom Brady keep the MKX Spectral Ermac trick to himself so he could steamroll a major tournmanet and get all the fight money? It would have been legit after all, and I actually agree with Ganelon that it should have been accepted as a legit strategy had he done so. But he didn't, he exposed it. That's because he actually gives a shit about the community, and has takes pride in his play.

Playing to Win is a great read, but it's not a religion. If you think all it's saying is break everything to win at all costs and personal pride means nothing, you aren't completely understanding it. You are reading it in the way a young earth creationist reads the old testament. The point being made in that book, is that you should push a game to it's limits, and if the limits break the game and the rules allow it the game is not worth playing. It's not saying you are awesome because you broke it, it's saying it's a shit game when played without regulations.
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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:38 am 


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Wasn't Donkey Kong Country the first well-known game that specifically took measures to prevent rapid pausing from being used as an exploit?

How was this still an issue in games made nearly two decades later?
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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:01 am 


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I think Cave ports' target at least since PS2 ones has been exclusively arcadegoers. Not really meant to serve any other purpose than practice at home before showing off in the arcades. Hence unlimited continues and included superplays (neither typical of such ports prior to those). I can't see why wouldn't they allow for pause-abusing in this case. Anything that anybody would find useful for the sake of practice.
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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:06 am 


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If that were the case they should have just included a game speed slider (and not make slowed-down plays submittable to the leaderboards with no indication of their being slowed down, as that's misleading to people trying to practice for a legitimate clear).
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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:26 am 


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Tangentially, the first Virtua Tennis home version allowed one to play with a lighter ball, supposedly slowing the game down.
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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:33 am 


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I seriously doubt that pause abuse was brought up at any point during development. This is Cave, guys. 20 years on and down to their final game, they still missed the overflow bug in SDOJ. Scandinavian women using third-party controllers to cheese their way to unlocking achievements was not a top priority.


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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:35 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 10:58 am 


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NTSC-J wrote:
I seriously doubt that pause abuse was brought up at any point during development.


Not sure if it's related but when you pause in DOJBLEX you can't save any replay. Your score still qualifies for leaderboards though. Maybe they did that because the replay would desync after pausing and they didn't want to deal with another bug to fix.

And in Espagluda PS2 you have to wait 3 seconds before coming back to the game after quiting pause menu. I always thought that this was meant to prevent this kind of cheat.


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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:13 am 


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Feedbacker wrote:
NTSC-J wrote:
I seriously doubt that pause abuse was brought up at any point during development.


Not sure if it's related but when you pause in DOJBLEX you can't save any replay. Your score still qualifies for leaderboards though. Maybe they did that because the replay would desync after pausing and they didn't want to deal with another bug to fix.

I think Muchi Pork does this too, but I always assumed it had more to do with preventing pausing to take a break, which you can't do in runs on the PCB. Maybe not, though. The fact that you can still qualify for the leaderboards could mean that it's just sloppy Cave work and could have been unintentional.

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And in Espagluda PS2 you have to wait 3 seconds before coming back to the game after quiting pause menu. I always thought that this was meant to prevent this kind of cheat.

You're right, and knowing Mihara's perfectionism, he may have anticipated pause abuse. A dastardly mind like his would have thought of something like that. I remember at the time it was thought (maybe just by me) that this was done so you have a second to settle in.


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 Post subject: Re: Fair competitive practice and shoot'em ups
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:04 pm 


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DOJBLEX port wasn't done by CAVE.
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