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 Post subject: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:58 pm 


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https://www.ebay.com/itm/372670910914

I'm based in the US and own a Megadrive, SNES, 3DO, NES, Saturn, Dreamcast, OG XBOX, and PSX just to name a few. Do you guys recommend this unit? How does it stack up to a Sony BVM-20F1U?
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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:54 pm 


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Anyone paying the BIN for that monitor needs a psych evaluation....
That said it's a decent monitor, but for a tenth of that price..


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:02 pm 



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Sony PVM's are nice monitors. They have a sharp image with well defined scanlines and decent contrast. They aren't in the same league as the BVM line though. They were sold at a far lower price point but, a lot depends on what you like.

The image on a BVM can be a little too sharp for retro games for some people. Those people prefer the more authentic look found on TV's and arcade monitors. PVMs can look a little jagged too sometimes.

I have a 20" Ikegami TM20 -90RH which is broadly equivalent to a BVM on price and spec. It's technically excellent but I usually prefer to play on my 25" or 29" arcade monitor. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.

The image on pro video monitors like a PVM looks like this with thick black scanlines and jaggies:

Image

Tv's and arcade monitors bloom more so the image looks more like this:

Image

As a side note, $700 for an old 20" PVM seems a little steep to me unless it's very low hours. At that price range, you have other options to think about.

This Ikegami TM20-17rh is comparable to a PVM (on price and spec) but it's a little cheaper (if you can pick it up) and has a curved screen which is better for retro gaming.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-20-Color- ... SwM8RcEBGt

You always find a bunch of CRT arcade monitors on ebay. E.g. This curved screen:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Samsung-A48KRD ... 0530!US!-1

Happ still sells new Tri-sync CRT arcade monitors. They aren't as technically excellent as a PVM but they let you play every retro game ever in native res and new means less hassle. I have two myself:

https://na.suzohapp.com/products/monitors/49-2715-00

I made this video for someone when I first got mine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgjVcbH9Pio

And, people are still dumping old SD CRT tv's with component video ports on curbs. If you're on a budget, a late model SD Trinitron with component makes a nice gaming monitor and larger screens make light gun and driving games more fun.


Last edited by Classicgamer on Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:03 pm 


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What's considered a "good" crt for gaming, is in the eye of the beholder and you'll get many different answers as you ask different people. Tastes affects everything here. some prefer consumer sets, other the BVMs, other shadowmasks arcade screens or TVs etc.

As fas as the pure technical-achievement aspect, if that's what your after : it's a mid-grade Sony PVM, so it's aperture grille based and thus has a grille that lets out a lot of light with ease, it doesn't have phosphors as nice as a BVM and doesnt have a pitch as fine as a BVM either (this set is 600 TVL and BVM is 900 - 1000). But super solid still. But sure is no BVM if that's the holygrail you're after

HAVING SAID THAT : my very personnal input (which may vary from others input) is that it's one of the best Sony PVM for gaming, as I really prefer the 600 TVL sets for retro games. that pitch is just more flattering for games IMO than 800 TVL and up.

but then again I love shadow mask sets too. but when looking for an aperture grill set? I definitely go for these 500-600 TVL-ish sets (PVM-20M2/1954 and familly/2030/top consumer sets of '80s to '90s, the latter two having more bloom which can be nice again depending on your tastes). To me they're the sweetspot.

I had a 1354Q which is the predecessor line and I thought it looked dynamite, almost too "tight" a picture for my taste. it was on the edge of what I find fun to game on, almost being too "sharp", but still made the cut. it was fun.


And I personally would never shell out that cash for one. you can find stuff like this locally for a still-hefty-but-more-reasonable price of $250. check out the CRT page on reddit. and also check the Craigslist in your vicinities.

ALso, if you're patient, you might find one for very little cash if you call around your local universities, hospital and broadcast/movie equipment rental studios. They are sometimes more than happy to get rid of their crt monitors

With even more patience you might find a low-tier pvm in your local craigslist/thrift for almost nothing. but there's no guarantee


Last edited by FinalBaton on Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:31 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:13 pm 


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It is preference as mentioned but I strongly agree with baton. 800+ tvl is too sharp. Doesn't feel right.
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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:04 pm 



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Posts: 661
Gosh 6-7 years ago that monitor would have been around a third of that half that price, if mint with low hours, and still would have been called pricey.

That's a good monitor if you like high tvl. If you're going to spend that much I hope for your sake you've tested pro monitor crt's beforehand and are happy with the picture they provide. Back when I jumped in I had no reference other than other people online saying they were the best crt's for gaming. I ended up with a bunch of them and despite my best efforts to like them I couldn't adjust to the fact that they looked nothing like crt's that I remembered as a child, teenager and adult (to me they look much more like emulators on an lcd using some scanline filter of sorts).

Personally I wouldn't pick up any pro monitor that had 600 lines or over. I've seen some much older ones with were reportedly around 500 lines and looked better, but they appear closer to consumer grade crt's, so makes me wonder why bother when you can just get some high end consumer crt's instead.

FinalBaton wrote:
it doesn't have phosphors as nice as a BVM and doesnt have a pitch as fine as a BVM either (this set is 600 TVL and BVM is 900 - 1000).

Hi FinalBaton, been a while, just nitpicking but wanted to correct that the BVM range is 800~1000 actually. I had an 800 model, the so called BVM-20GU (the G model has 800, the F has 900 tvl and the E 1000 tvl iirc). :)


My recommendation for crt's is to go consumer grade, but that's just my preference. As for what kind of model it comes down to whether you like aperture grille (found in Sony sets, as well as 2000 era other brands, including some EU Panasonic models) or shadow mask (mostly any American tv, Samsungs, and most of the other Japanese brands), invar's are a middle ground I guess you could say. Most of us will have a preference greatly influenced by what we played on most. Then next is whether you favor flat or curved. Some people say curved has an easier time getting optimal geometry, and this may be true, but I find most sets of either type will generally need opening up to get the most out of them anyway. Lastly a requirement for most gamers is that the tv have component, so generally you'd be looking for tv's from the later 90's or the 2000's.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:18 pm 



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Posts: 870
Even among consumer grade tv's there is a large variation in pitch size. A lot of the late model CRTs had what they advertised as "super fine pitch". Great for squeezing extra detail out of analog film content but they present a similar problem to pro monitors, except without the benefits of amazing contrast and near perfect geometry. Plus some have issues with 100hz and other problematic processing. It's a mine field...

I've owned a lot of CRTs and It's very hard to find one that ticks all boxes. Vintage consoles all used different timings (shifting the image left and right) and arcade games used all manner of obscure resolutions. For this reason I place easy access to screen adjustments high on my list. I use them every time I switch game.

Most 15khz consoles output RGB as the best possible signal so I consider this a must. Using an RGB to component converter for every console is an option but not ideal.

Then there is all the non-15khz vintage games. I.e. All the EGA and VGA arcades plus 480p games on the PS2, Dreamcast and Xbox. Most CRT users have to compromise here which is hard. The main reason to still use a CRT is for games to look and feel correct.

I tend to favor tri-sync arcade monitors because they require the least amount of compromise. They are still available new. They accept both .7v and 3-5v Rgb with any refresh from 40hz to 70hz. Screen adjustments are on quick analog pots up front, They have nice large screens with around 600 tvl and you can play every game in native res. For me, having to build my own case was the lesser of all evils.

You can still see scanlines on arcade monitors if you look close on 240p games but they look natural and authentic instead of like half the image is missing.

Image

While some will say EGA doesn't matter as it's so few games, it includes a lot of classics:

https://blog.allyoucanarcade.com/the-de ... ion-games/

all of which look and play best at native res:

Image

480p covers an even larger list of classics. While most flat screens will accept 31khz, games from that era usually look and play better on a CRT. Sega Rally on the PS3, for example, looks and plays noticeably better on my CRT than on my LCD.

Image

Before you choose, I recommend asking yourself one simple question. "am I the sort of person that puts up test patterns and then tuts at every geometry issue?". If the answer is "yes", buy a pro RGB monitor. If not, a TV or arcade monitor is the way to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:41 pm 



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Posts: 661
Classicgamer wrote:
Even among consumer grade tv's there is a large variation in pitch size. A lot of the late model CRTs had what they advertised as "super fine pitch". Great for squeezing extra detail out of analog film content but they present a similar problem to pro monitors, except without the benefits of amazing contrast and near perfect geometry. Plus some have issues with 100hz and other problematic processing. It's a mine field...

Good point. I forgot to mention that. In the case of Sony consumer crt's, any model starting with HS from the Wega era has that super pitch, great for movies vhs and dvd's, but not so much for games. Also any of the 2000 era XBR models are the same thing. Usually for Sony anything in the FS and FV range are ideal for gaming (entry and mid level sets). There's less worry about with 90's sets, but quality and durability may be an issue at this point.

Classicgamer wrote:
Before you choose, I recommend asking yourself one simple question. "am I the sort of person that puts up test patterns and then tuts at every geometry issue?". If the answer is "yes", buy a pro RGB monitor. If not, a TV or arcade monitor is the way to go.


Or he could calibrate it internally, worst case scenario hiring a pro to do the calibration for him. It's true that pretty much any consumer crt is going to have lots of imperfections so if he needs great geometry and can't open it up then pro might be better, but then it's more about whether he'll like the picture. Ultimately though all crt's can go only go so far. Even pro models, they'll never have perfect geometry and convergence, at best you can aim for the "appearance" of perfect geometry/convergence.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:01 am 



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Posts: 870
I personally would not rely on fixing any geometry or convergence issues on a consumer crt TV. A skilled CRT repair man might be able to fix some age related issues and return it to factory condition (if you can find one) but probably not much better. These things are like Whack-a-mole. You make one side perfect and another issue pops up on the other.

I know very little about how CRTs were manufactured but the little I can deduce is that the near perfect tubes on those $15,000 - $20,000 broadcast reference monitors were the hand-picked cream of the crop. When I look at my Ikegami screen I can't spot a single issue.

But, it all comes down to what makes you happy (or unhappy). Some people nit-pick with the test pattern on-screen. I've seen it. Minor geometry issues literally spoils their enjoyment.

I rarely notice minor geometry issues when playing games. I just like the image to look exactly like the original cab I remember. I nit-pick things that look un-arcade-like such as jaggies and thick black gaps between scanlines.

Mr Test pattern often sees those jaggies on fine pitch monitors as an abundance of clarity. I see it as a scaling artifact that wasn't there on the original cab and shouldn't be there now. If I saw thick black lines across the screen in the arcades when I was a kid, I would have assumed it was broken.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:51 am 



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Posts: 632
Classicgamer wrote:
If I saw thick black lines across the screen in the arcades when I was a kid, I would have assumed it was broken.


You probably were not able to get your nose up to the CRT glass to see them :lol:

But for sure, while they were there, those gaps ("scanlines") were not as prominent as on the pro monitors that Mr Test Pattern likes so much. On the other hand, if those gaps are a problem everything is solved on pro monitors by increasing the distance between your eyes and the screen, and/or by increasing the contrast and/or subcontrast, while still being able to enjoy the amazing sharpness and colors of a pro monitor. Disclaimer: I game exclusively on a pro monitor.

That said, I'd advise anyone who wants a prime and "almost perfect" picture on CRT, including the past me, to consider simply finding a late PC CRT chained to an SGL or an OSSC/older XRGB unit instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:26 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 870
We'll agree to differ on using CRT pc monitors and upscalers.

I used to have a Sony crt pc monitor and old sprite-based games looked like my granny's gash on it, even when I output 240p 120hz. It's like the issue on pro video monitors x 100 and minus any of the benefits of good contrast and geometry. It's the worst of all worlds.

A quality upscaler like the XRGB mini can make 240p games look nicer but still nowhere near crt quality. It's a compromise and people who still use CRT monitors don't like compromising. If space limitations prevent CRT ownership then it's the best option but there is no other reason to go that route imo.

The investment in a Framemeister plus a decent low lag flatscreen gaming monitor is about the same as buying a decent CRT (or maybe a little more). And you can't use light guns. And most flat screens are 16:9 which is one of the seven deadly arcade sins. There are cheaper options like the OSSC but that saving comes with additional compromise.

I love my Ikegami Tm20-90rh. I consider it to be the best high end pro crt for retro gaming in existence but sitting further back doesn't solve the issue of jaggies fully. A 20" crt is fairly small and you need to be reasonably close for a nice playing experience. I keep it for the amazing contrast and vivid color. I usually only use it for later titles on the PS2 which benefit from the finer pitch on blurry 480i graphics.

while there are definitely gaps between scanlines on cga arcade monitors if you look close, they bloom so much that they aren't visible at normal playing distance. It's a more natural look. Nobody will ever convince me that circles aren't meant to be round and that developers intended for sprites to have a jagged staircase on their faces, or thick black lines across everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:58 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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The real solution is simply trying out everything and then decide what each person likes most.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:14 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 661
Classicgamer wrote:
When I look at my Ikegami screen I can't spot a single issue.

Maybe the Ikegami is better than Sony BVM's then, but both BVM's I had had noticeable distortions in scrolling games from left to right (looks like the picture rolling over a large bump), what's more in the BVM case for both happened in the exact same sport, indicating that it was out of the factory. On the PVM's I saw these distortions in different places, such as when scrolling up and down, which is a bit preferable imo unless you play a lot of games that scroll in that direction. On my favorite consumer crt's it's lighter but in different spots, but the general balance is actually better to my eyes.

Just to be clear though, you have to be really ocd to care at this level though, putting up a grid showed practically perfect geometry on BVM's and PVM's, but about the same with consumer grade tv's. You need to use parts like permalloy strips and play with the knobs (potentially the rings as well) to get near optimal geometry and convergence (and yes it's like a whack a mole, requires patience and care, sometimes hours, but it can be done). But perfect for a crt is still not perfect, people who are ocd will still find imperfections here and there, especially if they start using rulers or testing various scrolling tests, it's just unavoidable, one just has to accept that in my experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:48 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Taiyaki wrote:
but both BVM's I had had noticeable distortions in scrolling games from left to right (looks like the picture rolling over a large bump), what's more in the BVM case for both happened in the exact same sport, indicating that it was out of the factory.


I think I know exactly what you're talking about, it's about one third of the screen from the left side, right?

I only saw it on a D20, does the non-D monitor have it also? It's not on a D24 though.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:31 am 



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Posts: 870
Taiyaki wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
When I look at my Ikegami screen I can't spot a single issue.

Maybe the Ikegami is better than Sony BVM's then, but both BVM's I had had noticeable distortions in scrolling games from left to right (looks like the picture rolling over a large bump), what's more in the BVM case for both happened in the exact same sport, indicating that it was out of the factory. On the PVM's I saw these distortions in different places, such as when scrolling up and down, which is a bit preferable imo unless you play a lot of games that scroll in that direction. On my favorite consumer crt's it's lighter but in different spots, but the general balance is actually better to my eyes.

Just to be clear though, you have to be really ocd to care at this level though, putting up a grid showed practically perfect geometry on BVM's and PVM's, but about the same with consumer grade tv's. You need to use parts like permalloy strips and play with the knobs (potentially the rings as well) to get near optimal geometry and convergence (and yes it's like a whack a mole, requires patience and care, sometimes hours, but it can be done). But perfect for a crt is still not perfect, people who are ocd will still find imperfections here and there, especially if they start using rulers or testing various scrolling tests, it's just unavoidable, one just has to accept that in my experience.



I guess we all have things we are obsessive about. The BVM I used to own wasn't as good as my Ikegami but I couldn't fault it's geometry or convergence. I think it's fair to say that anyone who can't live with a BVM's geometry wouldn't be happy with any display of any kind. They were among the worlds most expensive reference monitors in their day. They didn't come much better.

While some faults are specific to CRT tech, there are no display types without specific issues of their own. And, for the most part, display tech went downhill after CRT, getting progressively worse until the sweet release of Oled. For vintage gaming, there is no display tech that delivers less visual issues than CRT.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:39 am 



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Classicgamer wrote:
I guess we all have things we are obsessive about. The BVM I used to own wasn't as good as my Ikegami but I couldn't fault it's geometry or convergence. I think it's fair to say that anyone who can't live with a BVM's geometry wouldn't be happy with any display of any kind. They were among the worlds most expensive reference monitors in their day. They didn't come much better.


I think for the environments in which they were used sure, but when bringing them into homes I'm not sure they really outshine anything else. You wouldn't see thick scanlines at the movies and I think having them when watching vhs or dvd's doesn't work well either, arguably same with games, although many gamers do seem to love that kind of picture as well.

I think LED displays have actually reached incredible levels of progress in the last couple years. Black levels have improved so much compared to even models from around 2015 it's like night and day. Brightness levels are so good that I think any good Sony set needs to be seriously dimmed (picture/light intensity) to even be watchable in HDR imo. OLED is wonderful and keeps improving but they still have issues to address in terms of durability, plasma had problems too and they improved them but I find the technology did go out without ever being perfected imo. Even my VT50 which iirc was the before last Panasonic plasma before they stopped production, still has serious burn in after a few years, and continually develops more burn in to add to the growing shadows that can be seen under certain conditions on my tv. Eventually I expect OLED will have ironed out all the issues to end up being the ultimate tv technology of our time. On the other side though the downsides of LED have been corrected to a point where it's a non issue (some lower end edge lit models will still get flashlighting effect in corners but most no longer do), so while I agree OLED is definitely the future, I think in terms of picture balance and value LED still puts up a really good fight at the moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:43 am 


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Sorry for the late reply fellas. I was sick for two days and couldn't do much online activities, playing catch-up.

Star1 wrote:
Anyone paying the BIN for that monitor needs a psych evaluation....
That said it's a decent monitor, but for a tenth of that price..


I bought one for $300.00. Still a little high for my tastes however it's better than $700.00. 8)


Classicgamer wrote:
Sony PVM's are nice monitors. They have a sharp image with well defined scanlines and decent contrast. They aren't in the same league as the BVM line though. They were sold at a far lower price point but, a lot depends on what you like.

The image on a BVM can be a little too sharp for retro games for some people. Those people prefer the more authentic look found on TV's and arcade monitors. PVMs can look a little jagged too sometimes.

I have a 20" Ikegami TM20 -90RH which is broadly equivalent to a BVM on price and spec. It's technically excellent but I usually prefer to play on my 25" or 29" arcade monitor. It's up to you to decide what you prefer.

The image on pro video monitors like a PVM looks like this with thick black scanlines and jaggies:

Image

Tv's and arcade monitors bloom more so the image looks more like this:

Image

As a side note, $700 for an old 20" PVM seems a little steep to me unless it's very low hours. At that price range, you have other options to think about.

This Ikegami TM20-17rh is comparable to a PVM (on price and spec) but it's a little cheaper (if you can pick it up) and has a curved screen which is better for retro gaming.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-20-Color- ... SwM8RcEBGt

You always find a bunch of CRT arcade monitors on ebay. E.g. This curved screen:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Samsung-A48KRD ... 0530!US!-1

Happ still sells new Tri-sync CRT arcade monitors. They aren't as technically excellent as a PVM but they let you play every retro game ever in native res and new means less hassle. I have two myself:

https://na.suzohapp.com/products/monitors/49-2715-00

I made this video for someone when I first got mine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgjVcbH9Pio

And, people are still dumping old SD CRT tv's with component video ports on curbs. If you're on a budget, a late model SD Trinitron with component makes a nice gaming monitor and larger screens make light gun and driving games more fun.


Appreciate the links.

The primary usage in my case would be retro games so nothing above 32-Bit and Dreamcast really. With Xbox, PS2 and Gamecube being a maybe.

Thank you very much for that Arcade monitor link now that I have a house some day I will build a cabinet to go inside my room.

FinalBaton wrote:
What's considered a "good" crt for gaming, is in the eye of the beholder and you'll get many different answers as you ask different people. Tastes affects everything here. some prefer consumer sets, other the BVMs, other shadowmasks arcade screens or TVs etc.

As fas as the pure technical-achievement aspect, if that's what your after : it's a mid-grade Sony PVM, so it's aperture grille based and thus has a grille that lets out a lot of light with ease, it doesn't have phosphors as nice as a BVM and doesnt have a pitch as fine as a BVM either (this set is 600 TVL and BVM is 900 - 1000). But super solid still. But sure is no BVM if that's the holygrail you're after

HAVING SAID THAT : my very personnal input (which may vary from others input) is that it's one of the best Sony PVM for gaming, as I really prefer the 600 TVL sets for retro games. that pitch is just more flattering for games IMO than 800 TVL and up.

but then again I love shadow mask sets too. but when looking for an aperture grill set? I definitely go for these 500-600 TVL-ish sets (PVM-20M2/1954 and familly/2030/top consumer sets of '80s to '90s, the latter two having more bloom which can be nice again depending on your tastes). To me they're the sweetspot.

I had a 1354Q which is the predecessor line and I thought it looked dynamite, almost too "tight" a picture for my taste. it was on the edge of what I find fun to game on, almost being too "sharp", but still made the cut. it was fun.


And I personally would never shell out that cash for one. you can find stuff like this locally for a still-hefty-but-more-reasonable price of $250. check out the CRT page on reddit. and also check the Craigslist in your vicinities.

ALso, if you're patient, you might find one for very little cash if you call around your local universities, hospital and broadcast/movie equipment rental studios. They are sometimes more than happy to get rid of their crt monitors

With even more patience you might find a low-tier pvm in your local craigslist/thrift for almost nothing. but there's no guarantee


Man you guys are really selling me on a BVM for a OG XBOX to Xbox 360. I do appreciate it's HD-SDI I will rule the day I ever run my 360 Mass Effect on there (even though I've moved onto PC with that game, the thought of running it in True Color, full HD on a classic CRT would be enticing)

I bought that exact model PVM btw. Was shipped today!

Classicgamer wrote:
Even among consumer grade tv's there is a large variation in pitch size. A lot of the late model CRTs had what they advertised as "super fine pitch". Great for squeezing extra detail out of analog film content but they present a similar problem to pro monitors, except without the benefits of amazing contrast and near perfect geometry. Plus some have issues with 100hz and other problematic processing. It's a mine field...

I've owned a lot of CRTs and It's very hard to find one that ticks all boxes. Vintage consoles all used different timings (shifting the image left and right) and arcade games used all manner of obscure resolutions. For this reason I place easy access to screen adjustments high on my list. I use them every time I switch game.

Most 15khz consoles output RGB as the best possible signal so I consider this a must. Using an RGB to component converter for every console is an option but not ideal.

Then there is all the non-15khz vintage games. I.e. All the EGA and VGA arcades plus 480p games on the PS2, Dreamcast and Xbox. Most CRT users have to compromise here which is hard. The main reason to still use a CRT is for games to look and feel correct.

I tend to favor tri-sync arcade monitors because they require the least amount of compromise. They are still available new. They accept both .7v and 3-5v Rgb with any refresh from 40hz to 70hz. Screen adjustments are on quick analog pots up front, They have nice large screens with around 600 tvl and you can play every game in native res. For me, having to build my own case was the lesser of all evils.

You can still see scanlines on arcade monitors if you look close on 240p games but they look natural and authentic instead of like half the image is missing.

Image

While some will say EGA doesn't matter as it's so few games, it includes a lot of classics:

https://blog.allyoucanarcade.com/the-de ... ion-games/

all of which look and play best at native res:

Image

480p covers an even larger list of classics. While most flat screens will accept 31khz, games from that era usually look and play better on a CRT. Sega Rally on the PS3, for example, looks and plays noticeably better on my CRT than on my LCD.

Image

Before you choose, I recommend asking yourself one simple question. "am I the sort of person that puts up test patterns and then tuts at every geometry issue?". If the answer is "yes", buy a pro RGB monitor. If not, a TV or arcade monitor is the way to go.


Yeahhh easy access to screen adjust (service mode), wish the makers of Emerson thought of that when they were making a certain CRT passed down from my father in the backroom. I love the TV to death but my 3DO games are shifted too far-right. Then when I try to access frequency shift alla service mode via the remote all I get is sleep mode. HUGE turn-off. The instructions seems to give conflicting info. Luckily I checked the Sony PVM I'm getting and it looks like it will allow me to remote into the service mode and adjust the horizontal frequency should I run into that issue again with that model.

I did ask about the Emerson a while ago but couldn't figure it out.
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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:55 pm 



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Rock Man wrote:
Yeahhh easy access to screen adjust (service mode), wish the makers of Emerson thought of that when they were making a certain CRT passed down from my father in the backroom. I love the TV to death but my 3DO games are shifted too far-right. Then when I try to access frequency shift alla service mode via the remote all I get is sleep mode. HUGE turn-off. The instructions seems to give conflicting info. Luckily I checked the Sony PVM I'm getting and it looks like it will allow me to remote into the service mode and adjust the horizontal frequency should I run into that issue again with that model.

I did ask about the Emerson a while ago but couldn't figure it out.


I think it's very likely to have a vertical and horizontal shift knob on the neck of the tube on the inside where you can adjust it there (probably with a screwdriver). Still requires opening up the tv, and you might want someone present incase you accidentally zap yourself (of course take proper safety precautions too), but that's probably where you fix it.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:38 pm 



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$300 is a far more reasonable price for a 20" PVM. Not the best deal ever but it's in the range of what's acceptable.

I would advise against buying a high end HD CRT for the simple reason that anything higher than 480p usually looks better on a decent flatscreen. Most of the HD capable crt broadcast monitors max out at 1080i and interlaced modes should be avoided at all costs with HD games.

If you simply must have an HD crt broadcast monitor you should also check out the Ikegami HTM20 line. They are the next generation from the TM20 and similar in spec to the TM20-90RH except with HD capability (as well as 15khz).

I'm a CRT fan but I use an Oled for anything 3d / 720p+. The PS3 looks insanely good on my 77" living room TV.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:24 pm 



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Taiyaki wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
I guess we all have things we are obsessive about. The BVM I used to own wasn't as good as my Ikegami but I couldn't fault it's geometry or convergence. I think it's fair to say that anyone who can't live with a BVM's geometry wouldn't be happy with any display of any kind. They were among the worlds most expensive reference monitors in their day. They didn't come much better.


I think for the environments in which they were used sure, but when bringing them into homes I'm not sure they really outshine anything else. You wouldn't see thick scanlines at the movies and I think having them when watching vhs or dvd's doesn't work well either, arguably same with games, although many gamers do seem to love that kind of picture as well.

I think LED displays have actually reached incredible levels of progress in the last couple years. Black levels have improved so much compared to even models from around 2015 it's like night and day. Brightness levels are so good that I think any good Sony set needs to be seriously dimmed (picture/light intensity) to even be watchable in HDR imo. OLED is wonderful and keeps improving but they still have issues to address in terms of durability, plasma had problems too and they improved them but I find the technology did go out without ever being perfected imo. Even my VT50 which iirc was the before last Panasonic plasma before they stopped production, still has serious burn in after a few years, and continually develops more burn in to add to the growing shadows that can be seen under certain conditions on my tv. Eventually I expect OLED will have ironed out all the issues to end up being the ultimate tv technology of our time. On the other side though the downsides of LED have been corrected to a point where it's a non issue (some lower end edge lit models will still get flashlighting effect in corners but most no longer do), so while I agree OLED is definitely the future, I think in terms of picture balance and value LED still puts up a really good fight at the moment.



Sure, flat screen TV tech has made some progress in recent years but it also fell a long way after CRT, so a lot of the "progress" is just catching up. I think of lcd (including led lit LCDs) to be like Israeli wine. It's better than it used to be but trying it once was enough.

In many ways, CRT is still the ultimate display tech and it can do things that no other tech has been able to replicate. It's still the only tech that can switch res. Even the best Oleds have to scale content to fit their pixel grid adding lag to games and unsightly scaling artifacts. CRTs can operate without processing the image at all.

CRT's also light pixels individually like plasma and Oled so their dynamic contrast will always be superior to the best local dimming lcd. All the local dimming tricks in the world won't change this. Dynamic contrast matters far more than absolute black levels.

If you ever get the opportunity, I highly recommend checking out the Sony G90 crt projector. It's performance offers a humbling view on how little progress has actually been made in recent years.

The G90 didn't just have an amazing image quality. It had outstanding future proofing. It could sync and switch res to anything from 15khz to 150khz, with any vertical refresh up to 150hz. It had every analog signal port built in (including rgb) and it used input cards to add additional ports like HDMI and DVI so it wouldn't become obsolete when new standards came out. It offered 1080p HDMI years before 1080p HDMI became a thing.

With modern displays, they can't even make a new HDMI standard that doesn't become obsolete every time they add a feature. And every time they increase the resolution they make the processing issue worse, especially for gamers who use everything from 240p up to 4k.

If CRTs were still being made, they would still be the best choice for a gaming monitor IMO. A monitor that could switch res for every console ever made and with zero lag would tick a lot of boxes....


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:22 am 


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Classicgamer wrote:
$300 is a far more reasonable price for a 20" PVM. Not the best deal ever but it's in the range of what's acceptable.

I would advise against buying a high end HD CRT for the simple reason that anything higher than 480p usually looks better on a decent flatscreen. Most of the HD capable crt broadcast monitors max out at 1080i and interlaced modes should be avoided at all costs with HD games.

If you simply must have an HD crt broadcast monitor you should also check out the Ikegami HTM20 line. They are the next generation from the TM20 and similar in spec to the TM20-90RH except with HD capability (as well as 15khz).

I'm a CRT fan but I use an Oled for anything 3d / 720p+. The PS3 looks insanely good on my 77" living room TV.

Ditto, if I'm buying a CRT for HD and sub HD sources it would be the Ikegami seeing as how they're consumer priced. I think my next SD CRT will be an Arcade monitor (sometime in the distant future) so I will reference those sources you guys provided from earlier.
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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:45 pm 



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Rock Man wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
$300 is a far more reasonable price for a 20" PVM. Not the best deal ever but it's in the range of what's acceptable.

I would advise against buying a high end HD CRT for the simple reason that anything higher than 480p usually looks better on a decent flatscreen. Most of the HD capable crt broadcast monitors max out at 1080i and interlaced modes should be avoided at all costs with HD games.

If you simply must have an HD crt broadcast monitor you should also check out the Ikegami HTM20 line. They are the next generation from the TM20 and similar in spec to the TM20-90RH except with HD capability (as well as 15khz).

I'm a CRT fan but I use an Oled for anything 3d / 720p+. The PS3 looks insanely good on my 77" living room TV.

Ditto, if I'm buying a CRT for HD and sub HD sources it would be the Ikegami seeing as how they're consumer priced. I think my next SD CRT will be an Arcade monitor (sometime in the distant future) so I will reference those sources you guys provided from earlier.


I wouldn't wait. Prices on these things aren't getting any cheaper and who knows how much longer Happ will carry new CRTs...


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:07 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Rock Man wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
$300 is a far more reasonable price for a 20" PVM. Not the best deal ever but it's in the range of what's acceptable.

I would advise against buying a high end HD CRT for the simple reason that anything higher than 480p usually looks better on a decent flatscreen. Most of the HD capable crt broadcast monitors max out at 1080i and interlaced modes should be avoided at all costs with HD games.

If you simply must have an HD crt broadcast monitor you should also check out the Ikegami HTM20 line. They are the next generation from the TM20 and similar in spec to the TM20-90RH except with HD capability (as well as 15khz).

I'm a CRT fan but I use an Oled for anything 3d / 720p+. The PS3 looks insanely good on my 77" living room TV.

Ditto, if I'm buying a CRT for HD and sub HD sources it would be the Ikegami seeing as how they're consumer priced. I think my next SD CRT will be an Arcade monitor (sometime in the distant future) so I will reference those sources you guys provided from earlier.


I wouldn't wait. Prices on these things aren't getting any cheaper and who knows how much longer Happ will carry new CRTs...

Understood.

Need you guys help, the CRT just arrived. Haven't opened the box yet. I'm trying to figure out how to hook everything up. Is it as simple as I think it is?

Do I purchase a female EURO RGB to BNC cable that connects to my male-to-male SCART that goes to either of my SCART matrix switchers? In otherwords:

Female RGB Euro SCART to 4 BNC + Audio Cable > Euro SCART Male to Male RGB Cable > Keene Commander Sync Blaster/Shinybow/Hama + all of the consoles

Is it as simple as that and would plugging a switcher into another switcher to hold more sources still work? I did this with the XRGB-3 and the Framemeister and it worked great! If the method is the same I'll be good to go!

Would you guys also recommend that I eventually order console specific BNC cables so I'll have the option to run all my consoles on a BNC switcher? My understanding is those switchers typically hold more than my SCART switches and they're not as expensive.
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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:37 pm 



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If you are connecting consoles via scart cables to a PVM, I recommend investing in a quality scart to BNC adapter with a built in Sync strike. I use this one with my Ikegami:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Female-RGB-Eur ... SwPhdU47vv

You may experience unwanted issues if you use a cheaper adapter with no sync stripper like noise or no image at all. Some PVMs are fussy with the sync on composite video used by most consoles. Some are OK with it but why chance it...


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 9:51 pm 


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Rock Man wrote:
Would you guys also recommend that I eventually order console specific BNC cables so I'll have the option to run all my consoles on a BNC switcher? My understanding is those switchers typically hold more than my SCART switches and they're not as expensive.

absolutely yes


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:56 pm 



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Extron vga switches are also pretty reasonable on ebay and DB15 to BNC adapters are also cheap.

But, you rarely see BNC or DB15 cables for 15khz consoles. If you have to use a scart to BNC adapter for each one then that could eat up any saving for the scart switcher.


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:21 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Extron vga switches are also pretty reasonable on ebay and DB15 to BNC adapters are also cheap.

But, you rarely see BNC or DB15 cables for 15khz consoles. If you have to use a scart to BNC adapter for each one then that could eat up any saving for the scart switcher.

Retro-Access makes both BNC and DE-15 cables for everything. I also have dongles in the works for NTSC genesis and SNES that will have DE-15 and 3.5mm audio ports


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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:09 am 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Extron vga switches are also pretty reasonable on ebay and DB15 to BNC adapters are also cheap.

But, you rarely see BNC or DB15 cables for 15khz consoles. If you have to use a scart to BNC adapter for each one then that could eat up any saving for the scart switcher.

Retro-Access makes both BNC and DE-15 cables for everything. I also have dongles in the works for NTSC genesis and SNES that will have DE-15 and 3.5mm audio ports

Then that's where I'll start.

Classicgamer wrote:
If you are connecting consoles via scart cables to a PVM, I recommend investing in a quality scart to BNC adapter with a built in Sync strike. I use this one with my Ikegami:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Female-RGB-Eur ... SwPhdU47vv

You may experience unwanted issues if you use a cheaper adapter with no sync stripper like noise or no image at all. Some PVMs are fussy with the sync on composite video used by most consoles. Some are OK with it but why chance it...


Thanks this is going to come in handy!
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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:58 am 


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Finally set-up the TV it's... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

Of course I only have the resources to test it out in S-Video which did work. The results were - the colors popped! Contrast fits perfectly and the chroma brings my source into arcade territory! It managed to edge out my EWF2006 Emerson TV and that's saying a lot! My Emerson handled my 3DO like a dream but this TV transcends the heavens. Street Fighter and Gex never looked so good!

I could only do S-Video in 240p I'm going to try to hunt down a model one 3DO with RGB+240p output so I can tap the RGB out of that thing. I tried a Nintendo NES in composite because I was curious to see how it looks. Though I was unable to get a picture. Question, this TV can't take composite video using the normal red/white/yellow cables correct? I'll need to use an adapter cable yes? I ordered the Female RGB Euro SCART to 4 BNC + Audio Cable w/ built-in sync stripper for all of my natural SCART RGB consoles (PlayStation 1, Mega Drive, Saturn, etc.) I give thanks to Classicgamer for that link. Is there a way to also connect my crappy composite-only sources such as NES?

Been meaning to ask what type of remote should I get for the PVM?
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 Post subject: Re: Is this a good CRT?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:04 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Extron vga switches are also pretty reasonable on ebay and DB15 to BNC adapters are also cheap.

But, you rarely see BNC or DB15 cables for 15khz consoles. If you have to use a scart to BNC adapter for each one then that could eat up any saving for the scart switcher.

Retro-Access makes both BNC and DE-15 cables for everything. I also have dongles in the works for NTSC genesis and SNES that will have DE-15 and 3.5mm audio ports


I checked out their site. I hadn't seen their BNC cables before. I couldn't see any DB15 cables. Have you seen them for Snes and Genesis etc?

Their prices are way too high to be worth it IMO. $55 for a SNES or Genesis RGB cable is insane. You could literally buy a scart cable and a decent scart to BNC adapter for each console for less than one of their BNC cables (per console). Plus, you'd still need an RGB switch on top.

If the point is to find the most economical and convenient solution to connect multiple old consoles to a single RGB port, a scart switch is still the way to go. Scart cables for most of those consoles cost less than $8 and a 6 console switch cost $180 in America and considerably less if purchased in Europe.

Scart switches are far less specialist in EU and they benefit from volume and experience. I.e. You get professionally made scart accessories for appropriate prices VS some guy making them one by one in his basement here in America. For example:

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/9208250

With all that said, the numbers change depending on how many consoles you have and what cables and adapters you own already.


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