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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:08 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 1000
Got RGBS + Audio working on the KV-25DXR. Really wasn't bad to make the cable at all. Fyi connected 34 to 1 after this pic to enable sound.

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Haven't touched a setting on it yet. Need to turn down red a touch, and work on convergence a little etc etc etc but not bad at all.

Image

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Full album: https://imgur.com/a/WBcJmRp


Last edited by Dochartaigh on Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:09 am 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 870
I nearly bought a 25XBR a while ago when it was listed for $25 on my local Craigslist. I hesitated (and missed out) due to the unusual RGB input.

I found two things that might be usual to you though:

- you can buy a breakout board for that plug type on ebay fairly cheap. the breakout board will let you hook up the relevant pins using labeled screw terminals in a few seconds. Much easier than soldering a custom cable. Just wire the pins to a standard DB15 (VGA-style) female breakout board or a female scart port. You won't want to make a custom cable for every console...

- There is some guy who makes (and sells) ready made cables for Sony XBR rgb sets (and others that use that idc style ribbon). This might save you a lot of time and / or hassle:

https://retro-access.com/products/34-pi ... b65b&_ss=r


According to him, standard IDC plugs are too shallow for the Sony 34 pin multi input ports.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:00 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 1000
Classicgamer wrote:
I found two things that might be usual to you though:

- you can buy a breakout board for that plug type on ebay fairly cheap. the breakout board will let you hook up the relevant pins using labeled screw terminals in a few seconds. Much easier than soldering a custom cable. Just wire the pins to a standard DB15 (VGA-style) female breakout board or a female scart port. You won't want to make a custom cable for every console...

- There is some guy who makes (and sells) ready made cables for Sony XBR rgb sets (and others that use that idc style ribbon). This might save you a lot of time and / or hassle:

https://retro-access.com/products/34-pi ... b65b&_ss=r


According to him, standard IDC plugs are too shallow for the Sony 34 pin multi input ports.



I chose to do it this way on purpose actually. I wanted this to be setup exactly like my PVM's with female BNC and audio plugs so I could hook it up to my Extron Crosspoint switcher then run any of my 14 consoles to it the same exact way.

Using a break-out screw-type boards has never worked well for me when these wires are so crazy thin. The audio cables (which I used a thicker type this time even) is literally like 7, maybe 8 strands of copper; the positive of the RGBS wires (super-high-end Extron cables fyi) wasn't much thicker. This way lets me solder everything, then wrap each +/- wire pair in 2x layers of shrinkwrap, and along with the excess wires I didn't use gives a decent grip when I have to unplug it. Otherwise I would fear ripping out wires on a screw-type board (like used to happen on my Extron Phoenix connectors all the time before I started using hot glue on those for a little handle.

The standard 34-pin floppy cable seems to fit nice and snug and deep enough from what I can tell. Best part is I already had the floppy cable, and the Extron BNC cable I cannibalized was $4 shipped (and have a good dozen extras of those anyway).


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:23 am 


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looks really good for a bodge


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:59 am 



Joined: 07 Mar 2016
Posts: 98
Dochartaigh wrote:
davidwhangchoi wrote:
just a heads up
using the box the way it's supposed too, converting component to scart to a pvm 20m4u: there's image issues with the wii, pspgo.

i posted my impressions and issues with the new Garo a few posts back.


I thought they took the SCART plug out of the newest version of the Garo and it only has VGA? You're using a VGA to SCART adapter cable I assume? I'm using a VGA to RGBHV BNC cable on my PVM/BVM's (but for this test just a straight VGA-to-VGA cable from the Garo to the CRT 480p monitor).

And I'm familiar with the issues. Some are fine, some jacked-up. I have the new version of the Garo with VGA which was jacked up for many people but mine for instance works fine on Wii on a multitude of consumer, PVM, and BVM CRT's so I guess I got lucky. Just trying to see if it outputs proper levels of sync for VGA. I guess I could multimeter it if somebody told me how... (kinda know....just stick the + probe to the inside of one of the sync BNC's, the negative to the outside negative? jacket)

Ah, i guess there's even a newer version then. i haven't paid attention.

just saw someone posted back in Feb on reddit linking to my posts:
https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... anscorder/

when testing the VGA, it worked decent from i remember. back then the Garo was advertised, at least to me i read, it converted component to scart so i can have all my connections streamlined through scart. i guess they got rid of it after it caused problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:18 pm 


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looking good Dochartaigh! I might do a BNC version of the cable too, that's a great idea. I made a SCART one but a BNC one would allow me to use Extron matrixes(and is way easier to solder than DE-15, which I personally can't work on)

This set has adjustable colour temperature(32k, 65k and 92k. needless to say that 32k is wayyyyy to fucking reddish) so you could try switching that to tame reds.
Mine has very deep reds too but it's not bleeding nor clipping. They're very rich but controlled. They look different from a mid-grade PVM's reds, but they still look awesome. I think it might be down to the phosphors used

Personally I'm not a fan of adjusting factory colour channel gains and cutoff on a RGB set, unless it's very obvious that they're off/drifted off-spec.

From your pic, the brightness seems too high(which really does a number on reds in particular, makes them look pink-ish), so either turn it down on the set, or if it's a 1-Chip Snes/Sufami you're using : put resistors on the RGB lines of the console or it's cable (if you don't wanna do that mod then you'll have to turn brightness way down(to something like 10 clicks up from minimum or so) when you go from your other consoles to the Sufami).

Oh forgot to say : the horizontal picture centering knob at the back works for analog RGB on this set (whereas on a PVM-2530 it will only work for digital RGB). Can be handy when switching console and you need to move the picture an inch or so to the left or right.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:41 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
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FinalBaton wrote:
looking good Dochartaigh! I might do a BNC version of the cable too, that's a great idea. I made a SCART one but a BNC one would allow me to use Extron matrixes(and is way easier to solder than DE-15, which I personally can't work on)

This set has adjustable colour temperature(32k, 65k and 92k. needless to say that 32k is wayyyyy to fucking reddish) so you could try switching that to tame reds.
Mine has very deep reds too but it's not bleeding nor clipping. They're very rich but controlled. They look different from a mid-grade PVM's reds, but they still look awesome. I think it might be down to the phosphors used

Personally I'm not a fan of adjusting factory colour channel gains and cutoff on a RGB set, unless it's very obvious that they're off/drifted off-spec.

From your pic, the brightness seems too high(which really does a number on reds in particular, makes them look pink-ish), so either turn it down on the set, or if it's a 1-Chip Snes/Sufami you're using : put resistors on the RGB lines of the console or it's cable (if you don't wanna do that mod then you'll have to turn brightness way down(to something like 10 clicks up from minimum or so) when you go from your other consoles to the Sufami).

Oh forgot to say : the horizontal picture centering knob at the back works for analog RGB on this set (whereas on a PVM-2530 it will only work for digital RGB). Can be handy when switching console and you need to move the picture an inch or so to the left or right.


I'll mess around with the controls again but I don't have the RM-727 remote (only one is on eBay for ~$200+ which is about 5x more than I'll pay ;) so I don't know if I can adjust the color temp via the physical buttons. I don't have the Operating Manual, only the Service Manual, but there's also zero mention of color temperature anywhere so I don't know if this DXR version has that (like I'm assuming the XBR has). They do mention something called Trinitone (which on others specifically mentions bringing red up or down), but per the manual I think it's just adjusting Hue (which I haven't touched yet). It's actually not far off from where it should be (via the naked eye, in-person at least).

For brightness, the set is actually a little too dim - that's just my camera I think. These pics were from a 1CHIP-03 (CSYNC restored) with 3x resistors for brightness, running over 75' of BNC cable from my game room where the Crosspoint is (this set is in my living room now). When I hook it up directly to a RP3 with RGBS hat (which previously has correct brightness levels) it's also just a smidge dim too so it wasn't just the long cable run. Turning brightness up made blacks washed out so I'll have to figure out a good balance there (open to suggestions on what to tune).

For centering, I'm pretty sure the "Digital" in this model's name is because of the digital deflection (might even be the first model with this), and there's actually two buttons for H Center on the back, not a dial - but it works on analog RGBS signals so that's great.

On the digital deflection front, this actually has an on-screen service menu! You have to trigger it via a switch inside the case (which I plan on routing to the back so I can hit it whenever), but you can adjust everything from width, height, centering, R/G/B drive, Pin, linearity, etc. etc.

Image

This is both a blessing and a curse now though....I can't make the service menu work without the original remote I don't think. I had a buddy pull up this TV's profile on his Logitech Harmony universal remote and there doesn't seem to be buttons for Sleep which is needed to write the value to memory. Don't know if it has the + and - buttons either (which are separate buttons from channel or volume +/-), or left and right as well...so I'm kinda at a loss here right now. Normally I can adjust that via pots in a TV of this age...but the Service Manual didn't mention anything on those so I'm pretty positive it's all done digitally with that remote...


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:41 pm 


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Trinitone is the color temp adjustment! pressing the reset button on the TV will select 65k, so there's that at least... the remote for the XBR(RM-724) can be had for $15 on Ebay and lets you adjust this. but maybe it lacks functions for say service menu and stuff for th DXR (and maybe isn't compatible at all. but that'd surprise me).

Speaking of that : that's another difference with the XBR! mine doesn't have on-screen service menu. at least not that I know of(seen mention elsewhere that it doesn't). Pretty handy!


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:24 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
I don't have the RM-727 remote (only one is on eBay for ~$200+ which is about 5x more than I'll pay ;)


The last time i needed a remote, i downloaded a free cell phone app to do it. My most recent phone lacks the IR out, but I keep an old phone lying around for this kind of situation. If one of your phone's can do it, maybe would be enough?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:45 pm 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
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FinalBaton wrote:
Trinitone is the color temp adjustment! pressing the reset button on the TV will select 65k, so there's that at least... the remote for the XBR(RM-724) can be had for $15 on Ebay and lets you adjust this. but maybe it lacks functions for say service menu and stuff for th DXR (and maybe isn't compatible at all. but that'd surprise me).

Speaking of that : that's another difference with the XBR! mine doesn't have on-screen service menu. at least not that I know of(seen mention elsewhere that it doesn't). Pretty handy!


Nothing in the XBR manual about a service menu, think it's the DXR only of this era. The DXR's remote has a BUNCH of buttons that I need which the XBR's remote doesn't have sadly.




vol.2 wrote:
Dochartaigh wrote:
I don't have the RM-727 remote (only one is on eBay for ~$200+ which is about 5x more than I'll pay ;)


The last time i needed a remote, i downloaded a free cell phone app to do it. My most recent phone lacks the IR out, but I keep an old phone lying around for this kind of situation. If one of your phone's can do it, maybe would be enough?


I actually made a post asking about a universal remote. Problem is even Logitech Harmony's extensive (what do they say...250,000+ devices or something crazy like that?) remote library does NOT have the buttons I need to use the service menu... they even say they have this exact 25DXR model listed...but I think it's more of a generic template for older Sony's they used.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:06 pm 



Joined: 31 Aug 2019
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Hey all, I've got an issue I'm looking for some help with.

My PVM 20M2MDU has a streaking issue. There are several pictures with explanations here: https://imgur.com/a/8NivX8r

First let me say that this is not a problem with any input, if you look at my gallery you'll see that it's visible when there's no input and just the menu of the PVM is on screen. I have already tried adjusting the screen potentiometer on the neckboard and have recapped the power board, neither made the problem any better.

I have seen other people post about this issue around the internet and it seems it could be caused by a wide range of things, unfortunately almost nobody reports back what fixed it unless it was something obvious like a bad switcher or bad input cable. I know this can be a sign of a tube wearing out, I just want to make sure I've exhausted every other avenue/suggestion before I go down that route.

Any suggestions you have would be appreciated, if it's not obvious by the fact that I recapped the power board I'm willing to do just about anything so fire away!

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 9:55 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
. they even say they have this exact 25DXR model listed...but I think it's more of a generic template for older Sony's they used.


Have you figured this out yet? I had another thought. Maybe an older Sony universal remote would work if it was from the same time period?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:25 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 1000
vol.2 wrote:
Dochartaigh wrote:
. they even say they have this exact 25DXR model listed...but I think it's more of a generic template for older Sony's they used.


Have you figured this out yet? I had another thought. Maybe an older Sony universal remote would work if it was from the same time period?


Yes, and I did something similar: I was able to use TWO older remotes with the buttons I needed (one I can program but haven't tried that yet). I put a couple pics and my notes in the Imgur album if you want some more info: https://imgur.com/a/WBcJmRp


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:17 am 



Joined: 07 Mar 2016
Posts: 98
Dochartaigh wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
Dochartaigh wrote:
. they even say they have this exact 25DXR model listed...but I think it's more of a generic template for older Sony's they used.


Have you figured this out yet? I had another thought. Maybe an older Sony universal remote would work if it was from the same time period?


Yes, and I did something similar: I was able to use TWO older remotes with the buttons I needed (one I can program but haven't tried that yet). I put a couple pics and my notes in the Imgur album if you want some more info: https://imgur.com/a/WBcJmRp

two remotes? that's pretty genius.

i would think each signal would cancel the other out.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 2:07 am 



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davidwhangchoi wrote:
two remotes? that's pretty genius.

i would think each signal would cancel the other out.


Single sequential button presses (no multiple buttons held down at once), and none of the craziness some of the later TV's needed to get into the service menu. This DXR actually needs a 'service' switch inside flipped on to even be able to access the on-screen service menu via remote control.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 3:20 am 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
I put a couple pics and my notes in the Imgur album if you want some more info:


Sweet. That's a nice looking rig there. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:24 am 



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Just read through the imgur album. Really nice! Could you resolve your geometry issues? Also, where did you buy the service manual?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 4:56 pm 



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SuperSpongo wrote:
Just read through the imgur album. Really nice! Could you resolve your geometry issues? Also, where did you buy the service manual?


I'm going to recap before messing with the geometry - I've gone as far as I can via manual pot and service menu adjustments, and it's not bad, but could certainly be better.

I got the service manual from samswebsite.com for $20. I'm waiting a bit but will probably post it online at some point.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 9:20 pm 



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I think I have "CRT disease" - a terminal condition where sufferers continue to shop for new CRT monitors even though they already have twice as many as they could ever use.

It's ridiculous. My needs are all met but then..... I saw this Pic:

Image


And I was reminded that when I lived in the UK as a kid, there was a whole lot of 50" and 60" crt rear projection arcade monitors with rgb input. Now I want to import one...

I know they had 4:3 crt rear projection monitors in America but all the ones I have seen used RGB to NTSC converters, so they look terrible. Does anyone know of any American rear projection arcade chassis with RGB input?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:29 am 



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Makes sense to recap it first.

Yeah, I was just curious because I always stumble upon a bunch of service manual sellers when searching but I never know how to tell the legit ones from possible scammers. It's nice to know a site that definitely is for real.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 8:57 am 



Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 20
Classicgamer wrote:
I think I have "CRT disease" - a terminal condition where sufferers continue to shop for new CRT monitors even though they already have twice as many as they could ever use.

It's ridiculous. My needs are all met but then..... I saw this Pic:

Image


And I was reminded that when I lived in the UK as a kid, there was a whole lot of 50" and 60" crt rear projection arcade monitors with rgb input. Now I want to import one...

I know they had 4:3 crt rear projection monitors in America but all the ones I have seen used RGB to NTSC converters, so they look terrible. Does anyone know of any American rear projection arcade chassis with RGB input?

I've an Hitachi 42" 16:9 rear projection wich accepts RGB.
It's okish, but it's 100Hz\fake progressive scan only, still good thoug.
Back in the days (2002) 42" was super cool. I played a lot of NGC\PS2\DC stuff on that.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2019 1:34 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Does anyone know of any American rear projection arcade chassis with RGB input?


My first thought is to look for one designed for signage or commercial use. Like projectors, those would have BNC inputs.
If no one here has a good suggestion, try avs forums, those guys are into these kinds of questions specifically.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:21 pm 



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vol.2 wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Does anyone know of any American rear projection arcade chassis with RGB input?


My first thought is to look for one designed for signage or commercial use. Like projectors, those would have BNC inputs.
If no one here has a good suggestion, try avs forums, those guys are into these kinds of questions specifically.



I would have thought that too but I have never been able to find any American SD CRT rear projection TV's with RGB. If they existed I assume Namco would have used them for the deluxe Time Crisis cabs instead of NTSC converters. Those PCBs all output RGB natively.

It's odd because CRT front projectors in America, like the Sony G90 have RGB ports and 15khz compatibility. So... Somebody somewhere understood that it was worth including...

I'm currently in the process of moving to a new house and the old owners have a 60" Sony 4:3 crt rear projection TV that they plan to scrap. It has component video so I'm tempted to ask them to leave it if it's the best option available.

It's not the easiest topic to research as I've yet to find any list of tv's with RGB sold in the US.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:43 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
I would have thought that too but I have never been able to find any American SD CRT rear projection TV's with RGB. If they existed I assume Namco would have used them for the deluxe Time Crisis cabs instead of NTSC converters. Those PCBs all output RGB natively.

Can you clarify what you mean when you say NTSC? The NTSC system is fully compatible with RGB signals. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 12:15 am 



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Classicgamer wrote:
I would have thought that too but I have never been able to find any American SD CRT rear projection TV's with RGB. If they existed I assume Namco would have used them for the deluxe Time Crisis cabs instead of NTSC converters. Those PCBs all output RGB natively.


Sony sold them in the mid-80s as a friend of mine had one for many years. It had the same 34-pin RGB port as the 25XBR/DXR! Don't ask me what the model was though as that set is LONG dead and gone.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:54 am 



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Dumb question but can the dip settings be changed while the unit is on/in use?


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 5:08 am 



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Cannonballs wrote:
Dumb question but can the dip settings be changed while the unit is on/in use?

Don't do that. Turn it off if you're changing them.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:42 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
It has component video so I'm tempted to ask them to leave it if it's the best option available.

It's not the easiest topic to research as I've yet to find any list of tv's with RGB sold in the US.


I mean, component is fine, right? Just get one of those Kramer RGB to component decoders and you're off to the races. The set's already free, and you have a Kramer device for whatever other projects.

I'm not surprised that it's slow going. I don't think "rear projection" was really associated with "quality." Not sure about all devices, but the ones I remember looked weird from an angle and were never really compelling to me. And they were so... big.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 6:44 pm 



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the Goat wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
I would have thought that too but I have never been able to find any American SD CRT rear projection TV's with RGB. If they existed I assume Namco would have used them for the deluxe Time Crisis cabs instead of NTSC converters. Those PCBs all output RGB natively.

Can you clarify what you mean when you say NTSC? The NTSC system is fully compatible with RGB signals. The two are not mutually exclusive.


Yes they are (mutually exclusive). They are completely different color systems and definitely not fully compatible. You can have a TV that accepts both but a signal is one or the other, never both. Plenty of displays are only compatible with one but not the other. In fact, NTSC TV's with RGB are a tiny minority outside Japan.

A lot of people in Europe started using RGB for American and Japanese import consoles because their Pal and Secam TV's lacked NTSC compatibility. An American console could be used via RGB as long as the TV could handle a 60hz signal. If you connected it via Svideo or composite video, you got a black and white image as they use NTSC, Pal or Secam color.

American TV's had the opposite issue. They only work with NTSC or component Video with no RGB (in 99.999% of cases). Most arcade PCBs only output RGB. This was no issue for regular cabs as CRT arcade monitors accept RGB (they have no NTSC decoder). But Namco used consumer crt rear projection tv's for their deluxe cabs which only accepted NTSC color.

Namco's rgb to NTSC boards convert RGB color to NTSC which it outputs via composite video. It was only needed for the color as their 246 pcbs have 480p and 480i rgb options.


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 Post subject: Re: Fudoh's ode to old display technology
PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 7:19 pm 



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vol.2 wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
It has component video so I'm tempted to ask them to leave it if it's the best option available.

It's not the easiest topic to research as I've yet to find any list of tv's with RGB sold in the US.


I mean, component is fine, right? Just get one of those Kramer RGB to component decoders and you're off to the races. The set's already free, and you have a Kramer device for whatever other projects.

I'm not surprised that it's slow going. I don't think "rear projection" was really associated with "quality." Not sure about all devices, but the ones I remember looked weird from an angle and were never really compelling to me. And they were so... big.



Being big was the whole point.... You couldn't find many regular TVs larger than 40" which is not very home-theater-like.

Early rear projection tv's definitely had issues with brightness uniformity and narrow viewing angles. Not really a problem for arcade games but not great in a living room. Later models solved the issue completely with their fresnel lenticular screens. They used the fresnel lens to focus light for uniform brightness and the lenticular lens gave them close to 160 degrees of decent viewing angles.

There was a broad range when it came to overall image quality just like with front projectors and regular tv's. Like now, you got what you paid for. At one point, Pioneer made some very nice rear projection tv's (for the time period) for those who could afford it. Obviously it was nothing compared to Oled though.

When it comes to projection tech, the best CRT projectors are still better than the majority of current projectors. I have yet to find a DLP, LCD, Lcos or laser light source projector that can match the Sony G90 crt projector. I just wish somebody had offered the same quality and features in a TV.


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