Super Nt vs original SNES+Framemeister

[tomwhite2004]

I still don't get this rationale (which I hear all the time, so def not picking on you in particular fyi). That's 0.078 seconds. Or roughly 8 HUNDREDTHS of a second. This is WAY faster than the average reaction time of a jet fighter pilot or Formula 1 racer for instance...so I never understand why this matters to anybody out there.

input lag relates to the feeling of how something responds to your action, it's not the same as how long it would take to react to a visual or audio cue. it's all about how quickly a game responds to you, not how quickly you can respond to it.

a couple of frames of input lag is easily felt, anyone who has mucked around with run ahead in retroarch or gone from your average two frame hdtv to a crt with the same game will instantly feel the difference, as you would too.

[Revolver Ocelot]

Austin You were ausuming right. I am using RGB for my Saturn and Ps1 and I am happy with it. Even my N64 is capable of RGB so I can use the Framemeister with the best possible Signal and I am really happy with it so far.

Speaking of RGB and the SNES: Did some Research in the Net and it seems to Things are that easy. Apparently not every Snes model has the same Image Quality. Some models seem to have a better Image Quality than others. At least if the guys in the net are speaking the truth. This is making things a bit more complicated.

It also important, to consider the avaibility of SNES Units. As Austrian, I live in the Pal Region, so Pal Units and Pal games are way more easier to get than NTSC Units and NTCS games.

I am not a fan of Pal though. I grew up with it, und never noticed the Speed difference until recently, I got some NTSC Saturn, and PlayStation Units and now I do not want to go back to 50 HZ anymore.

Pal is totally fine, if is has been converted properly but even in the 32 bit era this was not Always the case. Most games were just rather lazy ports so the result was underwhelming.

Have no clue however who prevelent this Problem was in the 16 bit era of consoles. But I would guess pal mega drive games were also sometimes slower than their Genesis Counterparts, and same goes for the US SNES vs the Pal SNES??? What do you guys think About that matter?

And besides the pal problematic, I also have to consider that same games I want to experience myself, like FF 6 (i think it was called FF3 in the States) never got a pal Release. Same goes for Chrono Trigger and some other games.

It really seems that I need to get a US Unit to enjoy the games I want to Play.

But wanting a US unit would raise the price considerably. It is not the unit itself that would be more expensive than the pal unit, it would be the shipping. Unlike I am happy and can find a Us unit located in Europe, shipping form the States would raise the Price for sure.

So the Price Advantage that the original unit would have would vanish rather fast.

in that case I think getting NTSC super nt model sounds more and more attractive.

[evil_ash_xero]

In total that's 78ms of lag. Now you're up to almost 5 frames of lag, and I think that's starting to be noticeable.

I still don't get this rationale (which I hear all the time, so def not picking on you in particular fyi). That's 0.078 seconds. Or roughly 8 HUNDREDTHS of a second. This is WAY faster than the average reaction time of a jet fighter pilot or Formula 1 racer for instance...so I never understand why this matters to anybody out there.

This is the "shmups forum". Latency matters. A lot.

[FBX]

This is the "shmups forum". Latency matters. A lot.

Yep. Shooters, fighters, and any sort of speed-gaming for a new world record pretty much requires a CRT and wired hardware (including controllers).

[Xyga]

Shove an SD2SNES in the Nt and it will be hard not to deal with existential issues, like "did I just pay hundreds for an emulator?"

It's a real pain to acquire the 'right' SNES/SFC modded though, and not cheap these days, so for those who don't need the technically 100% authentic thing on a CRT, I admit this is a nice alternative, which has the merit of dodging the lag issue with no hassle (no need for a scaler also)

[vol.2]

In total that's 78ms of lag. Now you're up to almost 5 frames of lag, and I think that's starting to be noticeable.

I still don't get this rationale (which I hear all the time, so def not picking on you in particular fyi). That's 0.078 seconds. Or roughly 8 HUNDREDTHS of a second. This is WAY faster than the average reaction time of a jet fighter pilot or Formula 1 racer for instance...so I never understand why this matters to anybody out there.

This is the "shmups forum". Latency matters. A lot.

Aw, hell yeah. With platforming stuff like MegaMan or Mario bros, missing something late stage because the timing of a jump is off makes me wanna break stuff.

[Guspaz]

The virtual reality industry settled on 20ms motion-to-photons latency as the rough threshold where the brain is tricked into thinking something is instantaneous. Anything above that and you start getting discomfort and a reduced sense of presence (even if the latency is imperceptible). LTT also did a comparison between 60hz and 240hz monitors recently (using a high-speed camera to count reaction times and accuracy) and found significant improvements in performance from the 240hz display, despite the fact that you're talking about a mere 12.5ms difference in time between frames.

Even if you can't consciously detect latency, or consciously tell the difference between two levels of latency, that doesn't mean there aren't differences in your performance as a result.

[vol.2]

The virtual reality industry settled on 20ms motion-to-photons latency as the rough threshold where the brain is tricked into thinking something is instantaneous.

I've done a lot of work in VR and I can definitely say that it's true that you need very low latency to avoid nausea and to complete immersion. I would stress, however, that it's not quite the same animal as shmups framelag. In VR, the latency is a factor which impacts your brain's ability to resolve information from multiple sensory sources. The addition of realistic audio also makes a measurable improvement in user comfort and factors into the cumulative experience.

This is not to say that your point is invalid, I agree that it is strong evidence to support the brain's ability to unconsciously perceive lag. However, this can only be a factor insofar as the game's threshhold for hit detection.

What I mean to say is that the benefits achieved by lowering latency do not scale infinitely.

[Xyga]

Yeah when there's only one or two frames of delay (in total) most people can't feel that. Yet a little bit more and the number of players who can feel a little annoyance starts to increase.

[Guspaz]

And we're not even talking about one or two frames here, but nearly five frames of lag.

[orange808]

Mike Tyson's Punch Out

[it290]

in that case I think getting NTSC super nt model sounds more and more attractive.

I think this definitely tips the scales towards the NT—you can still run your PAL carts, but can also play any NTSC stuff with no region headaches. I don't think you can currently run PAL carts in full NTSC, but a future firmware update should hopefully bring that functionality as well (although it's kinda pointless unless you want to play physical since almost everything you'd want to play should have an NTSC official release or patch).