shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:45 am View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 2:54 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Oct 2014
Posts: 1251
I mean people understand "memorizing" differently.

Like, after 35 hours of DOJ i remember what happens where and how and what to do (like keeping in mind "traps" and whom to remove first etc), but if you ask me how many helicopters appear there or how many bullets they fire at you, i'm not a rain man... (which means, will i continue to fail? haha)
_________________
Kill the Past / Suda 51 fansite and more | Favorite artwork selection from manuals | My music


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:30 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 29 Jul 2010
Posts: 123
Location: Conroe, Texas
qmish wrote:
So by memorizing he means "memorize the whole queue of several thousand inputs that you do with pressing buttons" yeah? So every run is totally identical?

Why not ask him directly? Not like he's banned.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 4:27 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 1849
Location: Nebraska, USA
Despatche wrote:
2. Frame-perfect powerup cycles. You have to spawn the item at the right time and collect it at the right time every time.


Can you expand upon this a bit? I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you mean that you need to time the killing of the power-up ships at the right time, so that when the power-up icon spawns, you have time to get it before new threats approach?
_________________
"Playing a shmup with an analog stick is like trying to fill out the New York Times crossword with a can of spray paint." - Topher Cantler
YouTube | Twitter | Tumblr | Shoot the Core-cast Shmup Podcast


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:17 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 7062
Answering the original question, I don't play "a lot of" any game anymore, but Raiden 1 was likely the latest shmup I played (last year or so), in its "Raiden Project" version, and I did enjoy it considerably (just the gaiety of it all, especially the music). The first and only one I have ever played seriously was III on PC, mind.
Been meaning to revisit "Raiden Project" lately, but it's been months since moving and I still have yet to set up all the necessary gear.
_________________
The rear gate is closed down
The way out is cut off

Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:14 am 


User avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 3566
Location: the black gate
FRO wrote:
Can you expand upon this a bit? I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you mean that you need to time the killing of the power-up ships at the right time, so that when the power-up icon spawns, you have time to get it before new threats approach?

Instead of just resetting the cycle timer when the powerup is revealed, like every other game in existence, Raiden cycle timers are dependent on when the powerup is revealed. This means that powerups have no problem switching on you at the last second unless you've carefully studied the behavior in advance. This is compounded by having to pick up cycling powerups to actually upgrade your firepower and the game often getting dangerous all of a sudden to the point where you can't reasonably go for the powerup any time soon. "Powerups are a trap" is a common phrase in Raiden.

You have to study every aspect of the game very carefully to play it on a very basic level, and the way you're asked to play it isn't solid enough to go through the effort. It's hard to find a game so annoying with every detail.
_________________
In 1989,The Great Wall was discoverd
In 1990,The Picket Fence was also discoverd


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:25 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 219
Despatche (or anybody else), since Raiden 1 is an inferior Toaplan ripoff, which Toaplan games would you consider the pinnacle of this style?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:55 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 633
Location: Virginia, USA
Probably Kyukyoku Tiger/Twin Cobra and Tatsujin/Truxton. Hishouzame/Flying Shark is an earlier, but also good, comparison.

KT and TC are somewhat different in that KT is 1-player-at-a-time and has checkpoints, where TC has 2p simultaneous, instant respawn, and slightly faster copter controls. The other games' regional variants are mostly the same, although I think Truxton might be a bit easier than Tatsujin.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:22 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 1849
Location: Nebraska, USA
Despatche wrote:
FRO wrote:
Can you expand upon this a bit? I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you mean that you need to time the killing of the power-up ships at the right time, so that when the power-up icon spawns, you have time to get it before new threats approach?

Instead of just resetting the cycle timer when the powerup is revealed, like every other game in existence, Raiden cycle timers are dependent on when the powerup is revealed. This means that powerups have no problem switching on you at the last second unless you've carefully studied the behavior in advance. This is compounded by having to pick up cycling powerups to actually upgrade your firepower and the game often getting dangerous all of a sudden to the point where you can't reasonably go for the powerup any time soon. "Powerups are a trap" is a common phrase in Raiden.

You have to study every aspect of the game very carefully to play it on a very basic level, and the way you're asked to play it isn't solid enough to go through the effort. It's hard to find a game so annoying with every detail.


This makes sense, thanks for the clarification. To be fair, obviously the game was designed to take as much of your money as possible, so that factors into the design, even if it's not very friendly toward the player. Having said that, it still made a huge impact, and the game still has a pull, even if that's mostly nostalgia, because we're still talking about it nearly 30 years later.
_________________
"Playing a shmup with an analog stick is like trying to fill out the New York Times crossword with a can of spray paint." - Topher Cantler
YouTube | Twitter | Tumblr | Shoot the Core-cast Shmup Podcast


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 12:17 am 


User avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 3566
Location: the black gate
I like that we got Raiden III/IV/V, as well as the Raiden Fighters series. I do not like that Raiden and Raiden II are put on a pedestal and that III/IV/V aren't played as much as they should be because of it. I also really don't like that Raiden hurt Toaplan more than Street Fighter II ever did.

shmupsrocks wrote:
Despatche (or anybody else), since Raiden 1 is an inferior Toaplan ripoff, which Toaplan games would you consider the pinnacle of this style?

I don't even really care for Kyukyoku Tiger much, but it's significantly better at what Raiden does. Kyukyoku Tiger was the game that Raiden specifically built itself on.

Tatsujin and Same! Same! Same! are what come after Tiger. Tatsujin Ou comes after those. Other Toaplan games are also cool, but these are the games that have that specific kind of gameplay.
_________________
In 1989,The Great Wall was discoverd
In 1990,The Picket Fence was also discoverd


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:21 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2005
Posts: 633
Location: Virginia, USA
Raiden 3 sounds and plays ok, but man are the backgrounds ugly. Some of those early Type-X games... yikes.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:11 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2016
Posts: 15
Despatche wrote:
Other Toaplan games are also cool, but these are the games that have that specific kind of gameplay.


What do you think of Batsugun and/or DonPachi? Do those still have a enough of that style for you to enjoy them, or are they too close to the CAVE style at that point?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:22 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2014
Posts: 3342
Location: Ringing the bells of fortune
Exy wrote:
Despatche wrote:
Other Toaplan games are also cool, but these are the games that have that specific kind of gameplay.


What do you think of Batsugun and/or DonPachi? Do those still have a enough of that style for you to enjoy them, or are they too close to the CAVE style at that point?

They're nice games but not much like Raiden, if we're still talking about that. Tatsujin Ou is also not much like Raiden for what it's worth.
_________________
Image
NTSC-J: You know STGs are in trouble when you have threads on how to introduce them to a wider audience and get more people playing followed by threads on how to get its hardcore fan base to play them, too.
1CCs | Twitch | YouTube


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:33 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 29 Mar 2018
Posts: 23
Location: germany
Totally love my Raiden PCB from time to time - in contrary to my wife. Everytime shes darting an angry glance at me and my mashing firefinger :D
Although I still cannot reach the higher levels on 1credit, it totally gives me the arcade vibe from back in the days. And I‘m enjoying it!
_________________
“The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel.”


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:18 am 


User avatar

Joined: 04 Mar 2019
Posts: 26
Location: NRW
I often find myself playing Raiden 1 (jamma). Even the flawed, but still fun MD version. It's like one of those games that are so satisfying to play. Whats not to love?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:13 am 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 219
Same here. It's so satisfying for some reason. I'm going to try Flying Shark, Truxton, and Twin Cobra to see if it's a Toaplan thing and if I like those as much I'll do some more recon to see if it's a late 80's thing. I've been sticking to the 90's mainly for the graphics but maybe I've been missing the mark.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:37 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2016
Posts: 15
Shepardus wrote:
They're nice games but not much like Raiden, if we're still talking about that. Tatsujin Ou is also not much like Raiden for what it's worth.


Ya, imo Truxton/Tatsujin and the Sharks etc aren't all that much like Raiden, but I can see the point of view that they are, if you see what I mean.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 11:01 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6582
Location: block
xxx128 wrote:
Whats not to love?

Well since you seem new in the shmops community ima share some wisdom; you may already know but on the internet you are not allowed to enjoy games the Judges of the Gaming Inquisition tell you are bad. And for the games they tell you are good, you are expected to play them in a certain fashion, if you don't and stay casual and ignore the rules you will be burned at the stake. :twisted:

Fear not tho, not everyone around here is a memeber of the Inquisition, though we always expect them in such threads.


NB; I like the old Raidens too, that stupid raw bitchy gameplay and passé atmosphere feels like refreshing basic shmups challenge without the convolution and fluff of the later much more complex and refined material.
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:21 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 219
Exy wrote:
Shepardus wrote:
They're nice games but not much like Raiden, if we're still talking about that. Tatsujin Ou is also not much like Raiden for what it's worth.


Ya, imo Truxton/Tatsujin and the Sharks etc aren't all that much like Raiden, but I can see the point of view that they are, if you see what I mean.


Would you include Twin Cobra in that list?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 1:23 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Posts: 3417
Location: Chicago, IL
There is a reason they didn't, you know. It's because Raiden is a shameless copy of Kyuukyoku Tiger/Twin Cobra.
_________________
Image
DEMON'S TILT [bullet hell pinball] - Music Composer || EC2151 ~ My FM/YM2612 music & more! || 1CC List || PCE-CD: The Search for Quality


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:28 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 3566
Location: the black gate
Tatsujin follows on from Tiger, even if it doesn't seem like it; only the way power levels work is changed, and powerup distribution is like R-Type. Same! Same! Same! follows from Tatsujin and has Tiger cycling again (and Tiger point items!). Tatsujin Ou uses Raiden-style powerups and even has a terrible starting shot like Tiger/Raiden (something the original Tatsujin tried to fix), and otherwise plays like Tatsujin or Same! Same! Same!. Don't let small details detract from the main idea.

Exy wrote:
What do you think of Batsugun and/or DonPachi? Do those still have a enough of that style for you to enjoy them, or are they too close to the CAVE style at that point?

Batsugun and Donpachi aren't really like Raiden. Batsugun doesn't even play like other Toaplan or CAVE games, that game is extremely weird. Donpachi succeeds Grind Stormer far more than it does Batsugun.
_________________
In 1989,The Great Wall was discoverd
In 1990,The Picket Fence was also discoverd


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 1:23 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 219
Trying Tatsujin now and really enjoying it. Will try Kyukyoku Tiger next.

BTW should Tatsujin have a really crappy sounding gun? I'm on headphones and the music sounds great but the gun sounds like a static-y mess.

Can anyone translate that Japanese text on the orange sticker?

https://imgur.com/a/PqBDi3w


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:19 am 


User avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 2010
Posts: 3566
Location: the black gate
Looks like a serial number. First line says "Tatsujin (Taito)". Third line is the build or manufacture date, November 1988.

Funny enough, this is one of the very few times you'll ever see the kanji "達人" (tatsujin) used for this game. Usually this game is just called "TATSUJIN" or "タツジン" even in Japan. Only the sequel used "達人".
_________________
In 1989,The Great Wall was discoverd
In 1990,The Picket Fence was also discoverd


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:41 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 219
Thank you Despatche.

I've been playing Tatsujin a bit and one of the things I appreciate the most about it is the choice of checkpoint locations. I feel like I'm able to try again at the perfect spot. Is this a hallmark of Toaplan? Any other developers use checkpoints this way?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:19 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Posts: 3417
Location: Chicago, IL
Some of Konami's games have masterful use of checkpoints. The best is in my opinion Gradius 1, on the arcade. Every spot you restart from is a spot you can come back from, at least on the first loop (I don't have much experience with the later ones!).

Gradius II is mostly like this, though there are a few spots that may be overboard: people complain about the crystal stage (though I've never once died there. Get good, kiddos 8) ) and in my personal experience the boss rush at the penultimate stage could mercilessly end your run thanks to an inopportune zub spawn.

Several Irem games also fit, though the style of Irem games is probably the opposite of Toaplan. R-Type Delta in particular I think perfected R-Type's checkpoint system. There are about only two or so spots that are truly difficult to recover from (bio-mechanical sausage of doom, and the boss rush). The ship speed option makes recoveries far more forgiving since you are not moving a slug around a salt processing plant every time you restart.

Quote:
is this a hallmark of Toaplan?

For the most part I'd think so. Their checkpoints are pretty good, though it took me a long time to stomach the idea of checkpoints. Kyuukyoku Tiger is like Tatsujin a lot, too, in that respect. Dogyuun doesn't have any power levels, so recovery is always possible since you don't need 8 power-ups to not-die, unlike in Raiden :mrgreen:

They aren't always good though; imo Tatsujin Ou, the sequel, rarely seems to set you up for success, and I think Myco has posted about the some locations being practically unwinnable if you die there.
_________________
Image
DEMON'S TILT [bullet hell pinball] - Music Composer || EC2151 ~ My FM/YM2612 music & more! || 1CC List || PCE-CD: The Search for Quality


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Anyone else playing a lot of Raiden 1?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:36 am 


User avatar

Joined: 22 Sep 2016
Posts: 440
I don't think any of the checkpoints in Tatsujin Ou are flat out unwinnable, even in second loop, but they demand DDP chain-style precision just to survive with the little pea shooter you're reduced to.

Most of the time though, Toaplan games have perfectly fair and extremely well thought-out checkpoints, which are a big part of their appeal for me.

Giving the player lots of resources (such as bombs and lives) but having a checkpoint system in place to balance it is a very player-friendly approach to making a difficult but addictive game, I believe.
_________________
Image
My YouTube channel: link
Also I stream here sometimes: link


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 85 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot], Geezer and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group