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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon [Arcade/Mega Drive/Others]
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:16 pm 


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Oh is it time for another one of these arguments? The Japanese (where this game was developed and primarily played) have autofire nearly universally on their cabinets. It's standard to play shooters with autofire.
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon [Arcade/Mega Drive/Others]
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:40 pm 



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Van_Dammesque wrote:
Clearly has auto fire, should be removed from the hi-score table as it is not in the spirit of the game.

Van_Dammesque wrote:
Hence, why I think this should be struck from the record.

And your score is invalid because you played a bootleg :P

Splitting should be enough for this one
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon [Arcade/Mega Drive/Others]
PostPosted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:44 am 


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Can I get more input on a split? I certainly wouldn't mind, but I don't see the point unless there's a significant number of people using both and demanding it.

Van_Dammesque wrote:
Hence, why I think this should be struck from the record.

The actual spirit, as these games are actually played in Japan, where 90% of the good games are made, is almost always with autofire. For many of these games, there is an additional no-autofire board, because there is actual competition for shmups in Japan, and there always was. Any real player of these games respects both autofire and no-autofire.

Autofire is significantly more legitimate than you playing with a known bootleg. The allegations of tool-assisted play are more important, but are gonna have to go somewhere else.
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon [Arcade/Mega Drive/Others]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 7:47 am 


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volaju - 388.660 - 131 - NO - GROOVYMAME 0.169 (Alcon, US)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG3HMl72lv4

I played it on my AMSTRAD CPC 6128 (aka SLAP FIGHT) when I was young and discovered last week the arcade version and enjoyed it! :D
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon [Arcade/Mega Drive/Others]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:10 am 



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Autofire yes/no should be split in this case.

while it's true in most cases autofire is considered fine, there are exceptions.

many games of this vintage are clearly intended to be played without auto fire.

Another classic example is G-Darius. you are intended to bah the button rapidly to counter the beams. The multiple beams in a row some bosses did is a joke on psx version because you have full auto button, and get a quad counter beam for free. without that, countering so many beams in a row requires a crazy amount of button bashing.


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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon [Arcade/Mega Drive/Others]
PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:39 am 


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I like autofire splits, but I hate skeletons. We don't really have the kind of competition that the Japanese do where splits are justified from the start, mostly because there's the huge stigma against the idea of no autofire (because of its false relation to CTS). I'm honestly surprised most people are playing this without autofire, because that usually means autofire isn't actually that good for the game.

Right now, it'd be a dumb move that clearly says "Perikles isn't cool enough for the cool kid's club". Van_Dammesque is just mad because he got soundly beaten in a way that he claims is unfair, showing both a lack of understanding of this hobby and an alarming amount of bad faith. He's only ever posted in one of the Slap Fight score threads, and he seems incredibly protective of what he thinks is the "right" way to play this game.

So, I hate this whole situation, and I'm just gonna beg for more autofire scores before I do anything. Please? Even something like G Darius is not Thunder Blaster, where the entire design is based around how fast you can shoot.
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon [Arcade/Mega Drive/Others]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:08 pm 



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Despatche wrote:
Van_Dammesque is just mad because he got soundly beaten in a way that he claims is unfair, showing both a lack of understanding of this hobby and an alarming amount of bad faith. He's only ever posted in one of the Slap Fight score threads, and he seems incredibly protective of what he thinks is the "right" way to play this game.

I'll describe why Slap Fight is not intended to be played with autofire, as zaphod has said "there are exceptions", even trap15 claims "nearly universally" adopted, the emphasis are the words "exceptions" & "nearly", to voice an opinion against the use of autofire does not show bad faith or a lack of understanding - I am merely contending this is one of them exceptions:-

1. Intended game play:
(a) - Weapons. Just look at how the weapons are designed, let's assume that the more power-ups required in order to get a weapon then the more powerful that weapon actually is, in any game this is more often than not the case. With autofire the best weapon is the one that requires the least number of power-ups (or the default weapon in this case). The scenario, you reach the final boss on the 5th loop and the best weapon to use a the weakest? This is a paradox only resolved by invoking autofire, my contention is that this game is not DESIGNED to use autofire and the weakest weapon was never intended to so devastating.
Another case is the side shot becomes even more powerful, the player merely has to move past an enemy that is adjacent to his ship and the enemy is hit due to the spatial coverage the weapon now has due to autofire.

(b) - Impediment of other weapons by using autofire. Case in point: Laser. To use the laser at only short ranges requires the button to be pressed briefly, for long ranges it requires the button to be held down for a significant time (c.f. short range). This is a deliberate design by the game, by using autofire the laser weapon is rendered to be ineffective against any enemy. The range is so small as to be impracticable. If the game was designed to be used with autofire how can a whole weapon be rendered useless? Is this bad design or as I imagine autofire is not intended to be used?

(c) - In practice. In actuality, playing the game requires some physical endurance, repeatedly pressing fire can become very fatiguing to the hand/s. When using autofire this gives that gamer an unfair advantage. Coupling this argument with the scenario described in 1(a) shows the advantage gap widen further still.

(d) - Recovery. Like most games that use power-ups, the aim is to get back to a more powerful state after dying. In otherwords get back to a statethat uses normal gameplay tactics if dying didn't happen. This is far more favourable with autofire. Also like most other games, looping the game makes it harder, in this case Slap Fight does it numerous ways but here the amount of hits an enemy requires to be destroyed increases. This then gives the player using autofire an immense advantage (especially if take into account 1(c). Case 1 - look at the video at 56:08 of Perikles, those enemies are destroyed so quickly due to autofire that they look like it is 1st loop. Case 2 - 1:01:08, look at how ridiculously easy the weakest weapon is against a 'boss' on the 4/5th loop!

2. Hardware:
(a) - The original cabinet did not have autofire, I do not care if it where bolted on afterwards by arcade owners/ enthusiasts, the manufacturers did not ship it with autofire.

(b) - Bare metal. The DIP switches themselves also do not cater for autofire either - autofire is always ad-hoc.


Whilst I admire Perikles skills, these arguments are not in 'bad faith', it is an argument that Slap Fight was never intended to be used with autofire regardless of the culture surrounding other games with autofire (deliberately built in or not). Given the detriment of certain gameplay elements argued above and the fact that is was an arcade (coin munching machine) then the extension of length in time of playing the game by using autofire is not reflected in the gameplay's designed response loop after loop.

I have taken time to post a lengthy reply of the sole reason to address the severity of the claims and terms used by Despatche.

Regardless if someone agrees with these arguments or not, I believe the scores should be split.


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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:45 pm 


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For what it's worth, I also think that it is fair to split for this particular game - if for no other reason then for the simple fact that you cannot get such a substantial score boost on the little Space Invaders aliens without autofire. That's obviously quite a significant advantage (both for score and survival since you do quickly earn extends by doing that) that's not feasible without autofire. Whether or not the regular weapon was intended to be weaker or stronger than others, I'm not so sure myself (I find that the regular weapon is still usually the best choice in both MD versions, for example, and the autofire is internal in this case), one could argue either way. However, this is a score board first and foremost, and scoring with autofire is not only easier, it facilitates lucrative opportunities which are not available without it. Thus, a split is justified as far as I'm concerned.
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon [Arcade/Mega Drive/Others]
PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:07 pm 


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Van_Dammesque wrote:
{a bunch of nonsense about hardware that also applies to the vast majority of arcade games, and is easily defeated by a one-liner that's been posted countless times already}

You also assumed that I honestly believe this game was designed for autofire, when it's clearly not. That's not the argument, it has never been the argument, and it never will be the argument.

After what's been happening in this thread, I think it's pretty reasonable for me to be snappy. This is much worse than the Darius Gaiden drama just because of the fervor over a game noone likes.

It absolutely needs to be understood that the vast majority of arguments being used for this can be used for the vast majority of games in this genre. What that means is not that "this is okay", but that I have no idea why people are singling this game out specifically. Other than, obviously, Van_Dammesque being a very aggressive individual about this specific game and people wanting to be nice to him for some reason.

I am actually in favor of a split. I didn't really want to yet because this is such a low-volume game. But hey, guess we're at the point where I somehow look petty no matter what I do or say, so I'm gonna split just to end this. Friendly reminder that I'm also the guy who's all in favor of splits on principle when most people can't stand the idea; just look at the DDP thread. There's no real disparity in what I'm doing, but there is a balance I'm trying to uphold, and people are asking me to breach it for this one game.

If anyone has the power to thoroughly kick this guy's ass without autofire, please do so. If I had the money, I'd probably make it a bounty.
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Last edited by Despatche on Sat Feb 24, 2018 2:18 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:50 pm 


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Square_Air - 721,060 - 204 - Yes - ShmupMAME v4.2 (Slap Fight Japan set 1) [loop 3]

Fun game. Recovery starts to get pretty silly in loop 3, but I managed the 2-ALL I was hoping for. I'll probably come back to push ahead further in the future.
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:15 pm 


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Mega Drive Version

Slap Fight

PlasmaBlooD - 3,402,820 - 5-65 - Yes - Japan MD+Everdrive

https://s14.postimg.org/lfcwwomdt/P1010315.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:06 am 


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Mega Drive Version

Slap Fight

PlasmaBlooD - 4,617,280 - 6-47 - Yes - Japan MD+Everdrive

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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:23 am 


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Slap Fight Normal Version

PlasmaBlooD - 5,626,080 - 6-59 - Yes - Japan MD+Everdrive

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update:

PlasmaBlooD - 6,704,400 - 7-73 - Yes - Japan MD+Everdrive

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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:51 pm 



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I've just discovered that it's possible to restart with one speedup after dying, even if you don't have a star in weapon stock.
You can see an example in this run: https://youtu.be/lAzRjQbECyU?t=12m49s
Every time the player die, he can activate a speedup when he restart.
Can someone have understand this pattern ???


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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 1:54 pm 


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"Japan bootleg" probably has something to do with it.
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:19 pm 


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https://imgur.com/sDrKkWi
Slap Fight MD (Special Version)

maximo - 529,030 - 2-37 - Yes - Kega Fusion
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 5:29 am 


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Gains 4 dayz.

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Slap Fight MD (Special Version)

maximo - 726,250 - 2-74 - Yes - Kega Fusion

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Slap Fight (Original Version MegaDrive)

maximo - 1,214,550 - 3-61 - Yes - Kega Fusion
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 1:08 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:04 pm 


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More updates & stuff:
Slap Fight (Arcade)
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maximo - 476,780 - 153 - No - ShmupMAME v4.2 (Slap Fight Japan set 1) [loop 2]

This turned out to be pretty easy once i figured out to shred the final boss w/ laser. A 2-ALL does seem like a fun challenge that I might go for in the future. I also didn't use autofire since I didn't see any difference with it turned on (besides not being able to milk the space invader easter eggs).

Slap Fight MD (Special Version)
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maximo - 2,159,330 - 4-73 - Yes - Kega Fusion

Got my 2 mil goal; recovery in loop 4 can be kinda dumb at times, so I might take a break from this version for a while. This is still a fun arrange imo.
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:11 am 


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Slap Fight (Arcade)

maximo - 533,620 - 161 - No - ShmupMAME v4.2 (Slap Fight Japan set 1) [loop 2]

https://youtu.be/vKC75_AwqJM

First loop was a no-miss, loop 2 still kicks my ass.
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight / Alcon
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 4:07 am 


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So MAME changed the full name of these sets and I didn't notice until just now. I think Japan set 1 is now "A67 set", and Japan set 2 is now "A66 set". The short names are still slapfigh and slapfigha, but I have no idea if those were swapped when the full names got changed.
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight / Alcon
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:12 am 


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Despatche wrote:
So MAME changed the full name of these sets and I didn't notice until just now. I think Japan set 1 is now "A67 set", and Japan set 2 is now "A66 set". The short names are still slapfigh and slapfigha, but I have no idea if those were swapped when the full names got changed.

Here's where the change was made. "slapfigh" was Japan set 1, now is A77 set. "slapfigha" was Japan set 2, now is A76 set. I don't think the short names were swapped (i.e. "slapfigha" refers to the same set before as it does now).
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 11:10 am 



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Despatche wrote:
"Japan bootleg" probably has something to do with it.


Absolutly not !! This trick works on every pcb version, and probably on the MD version too (must check for the MD version)
So I give it here in my last replay and I use it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDVpM0HJMSc
You can recover a power-up when restarting, input ↑ + → + A + B at the same time.


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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:07 pm 



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ben.shinobi wrote:
Despatche wrote:
"Japan bootleg" probably has something to do with it.


Absolutly not !! This trick works on every pcb version, and probably on the MD version too (must check for the MD version)
So I give it here in my last replay and I use it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDVpM0HJMSc
You can recover a power-up when restarting, input ↑ + → + A + B at the same time.

Great observation! :D


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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:15 pm 


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ben.shinobi wrote:
...
You can recover a power-up when restarting, input ↑ + → + A + B at the same time.

Interesting! Just a question, is the joystick command UP then RIGHT or UP/RIGHT (diagonal movement) + AB?


Also that video compiling all the various hidden tricks was very cool, you know a lot about this game Ben :o

https://youtu.be/PifYgNanJIc
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:16 pm 



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llaoyllakcuf wrote:
ben.shinobi wrote:
...
Just a question, is the joystick command UP then RIGHT or UP/RIGHT (diagonal movement) + AB?
https://youtu.be/PifYgNanJIc


The trick required the diagonal movement UP/RIGHT+A+B at the same time.


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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight / Alcon
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:13 am 


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Ok, thanks! I'll remember to try this the next time I dig out my pcb from storage :oops:
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight / Alcon
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:42 am 


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Oh, neat. If anyone's wondering, that command most certainly is allowed.
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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight/Alcon
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:11 pm 



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ben.shinobi wrote:
llaoyllakcuf wrote:
ben.shinobi wrote:
...
Just a question, is the joystick command UP then RIGHT or UP/RIGHT (diagonal movement) + AB?
https://youtu.be/PifYgNanJIc


The trick required the diagonal movement UP/RIGHT+A+B at the same time.

I have commented on your video but worth repeating here as a good info reference:

Great video! Very thorough showing bonuses with all the weapons.
For reference I also once or twice got the second free life bonus (for reference the time of the video is 8:33 ish - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyGbH_HG4jE). I shall analyse the video and see if there is a pattern.

Two more things:
1. I have heard a rumour that the helper is with you and you beat the final boss a 100k bonus is awarded?
2. **what you said about the speed up trick**


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 Post subject: Re: Slap Fight / Alcon
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:11 pm 



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Despatche wrote:
Oh, neat. If anyone's wondering, that command most certainly is allowed.

Great, it would certainly help in when the bullets are flying fast in the later loops! :D


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