Superplay demonstration format.

[Bananamatic]

point me to the shmup discussion then champ
just to piss you off further, I'll state that there is more of that in /shmupg/ than here

[Xyga]

you need me to take your hand in a sensual way and help you find the forums? if your complaint is there's not enough then yeah of course, it's slow low activity, it's a dying genre with a shrinking players base, you're going to blame people for it?
you got into the genre while it was already fading away, champ, that's all, not the fault of the people still hanging around doing their stuff and passing time

and shmupg, sorry I don't visit much but every time it's hard to make anything actually shmups related in the middle of the torrents of posts vomiting on some players and farmers, insulting each other nonstop like they're on bath salts and need to kill, pages nearly filled with far-right diarrhea, and 4chan kiddy vocabulary spam
oh and really lately it's been: "plasmo plasmo plasmo plasmo xyga plasmo plasmo plasmo xyga plasmo plasmo" etc etc
feels like we have our private fan club over the comments area at the filthiest vg tabloid on the net. :p

[Plasmo]

Am I famous yet?

Also: gj Xyga&Banana. Very entertaining convo overall.

[agyx-groovy]

Am I famous yet?

I'm new here but i've heard of you in other internet houses, none of it was flattering though so i'd rather not repeat it.

and shmupg, sorry I don't visit much

I don't visit mcdonalds very much and that's why i never mention it... catch my drift?

yeah so again what? what tells you dumbasses that everyone here is a 'collector'? and for those who are then well, can't change them I guess, if they feel right spending tons of cash and hoarding so be it.

You seem so frustrated and angry, every post features an insult or ad hominem, what is it about this discussion that threatens you so much?You seem more the collector type who doesn't play competently and that's fine, no ones attacking you for that, just be who you are. Which pcbs do you own btw?

[Xyga]

you're trying too hard

[Plasmo]

Yeah dude, not cool. You're new here, so I won't bite, but let me tell you that this is not how we roll here. You have to learn a lot from Banana or else you won't get far in here as a troll.

[agyx-groovy]

Yeah dude, not cool. You're new here, so I won't bite, but let me tell you that this is not how we roll here. You have to learn a lot from Banana or else you won't get far in here as a troll.

I have no idea what you're talking about i'm afraid, i'm simply and sincerely relaying the fact that i've heard of you in other places online where you were described in unfavorable terms as "that tragic german who flew 4000 miles to be spoonfed leet strats for wr in dad game no one plays by sperglord mangina japs holding his dumb ass ransom" since you've pushed me to say, as a lurker i didn't know what it's relating to... sorry.

you're trying too hard

You lost me, i'm new here so inside jokes are not known to me yet but i've long lurked many related places!

[z0mbie90]

Seriously, I'm not been very active here lately, but everytime I been checking the forums lately it just been threads filled with this shit.
Eaglet asked a question and then all this shit started? Mods should just start banning soon cause this is ridiculous.

[Eaglet]

I agree. You're all embarrassments to the community and probably the biggest obstacle in attracting new players tbh.
Heard at stunfest that people who approached us were positively surprised as they we're expecting the autistic screeching you see on display at the forum these days.
Sad.

[cave hermit]

shmup farm was a mistake

[Bananamatic]

I agree. You're all embarrassments to the community and probably the biggest obstacle in attracting new players tbh.
Heard at stunfest that people who approached us were positively surprised as they we're expecting the autistic screeching you see on display at the forum these days.
Sad.

the saddest thing is people falling for the exa scam or saying nothing because they don't want to be seen as "autistic"
it's almost as if you want less games

"exa games have to be different from home versions for marketing reasons"
oh boy I can't wait to play the pleb version that is in no way comparable to the real arcade version unless I move to a different country or empty my bank account for an overpriced pc so shou can buy more shitty outdated hardware
the point is to blue ball you out of new releases in hopes you crack and spend insane money on the exa
imagine actually thinking that shou, the main pcb merchant here is after anything other than your money and redirecting all decent games to the exa while you serve as a free beta test
he's fully aware there are people with more money than common sense and people are walking straight into it blinded by "new arcade games"

they're all regular pc games and the only reason to not release them on pc as well is money
it's the same shit that happened with crimzon clover, the arcade release renders the original obsolete and no one takes it seriously anymore
except crimzon clover got ported because nesica doesn't have some retarded policy that "the arcade game has to be different"

[Eaglet]

Wrong thread dude.
Start your own if you desperately need to whine about not getting to play all games in your home.

[Xyga]

I agree. You're all embarrassments to the community and probably the biggest obstacle in attracting new players tbh.
Heard at stunfest that people who approached us were positively surprised as they we're expecting the autistic screeching you see on display at the forum these days.
Sad.

I don't agree with you and zombie, why say blindly 'all'?. Although we were a bit off topic for a few posts that was normal discussion, until banana as per usual switched to dragging the community through the mud, which is basically half what he does here almost every day and I'm tired of him. what he does is also basically calling his 4chan buddies to support his sap job, this 'agyx-groovy' is directly in reference to me and recent discussions, they regularily make new accounts to troll the place.
plasmo is also constantly their target. we have a problem with that, and I agree I shouldn't react and feed them, but don't include us as responsible for that mess.
you have in banana and these 4chan trolls people who literally drag all of us, everything shmups related and this community through the mud over and over, plasmo takes it with a smile, not me, I get pissed about it. you don't like it, fine I understand, but the embarassments? it's them.

[agyx-groovy]

why say blindly 'all'?.

He says doing precisely the same to this mysterious "shmupg" he's always harping on about, please at least have enough self awareness to be consistent.

[Plasmo]

I agree. You're all embarrassments to the community and probably the biggest obstacle in attracting new players tbh.
Heard at stunfest that people who approached us were positively surprised as they we're expecting the autistic screeching you see on display at the forum these days.
Sad.

I don't agree with you and zombie, why say blindly 'all'?. Although we were a bit off topic for a few posts that was normal discussion, until banana as per usual switched to dragging the community through the mud, which is basically half what he does here almost every day and I'm tired of him. what he does is also basically calling his 4chan buddies to support his sap job, this 'agyx-groovy' is directly in reference to me and recent discussions, they regularily make new accounts to troll the place.
plasmo is also constantly their target. we have a problem with that, and I agree I shouldn't react and feed them, but don't include us as responsible for that mess.
you have in banana and these 4chan trolls people who literally drag all of us, everything shmups related and this community through the mud over and over, plasmo takes it with a smile, not me, I get pissed about it. you don't like it, fine I understand, but the embarassments? it's them.

The thing I like about Banana is his enormous self-hatred and bitterness about literally everything that isn't DDP or Rolling Gunner (and even those games he probably secretly hates). It reaches such extremes that it is nothing but comical. I can really appreciate this and I say this without too much irony. His Exa rant is tiring to read, but in a way hugely entertaining. I still wish he would actually be back at playing shmups tho.

Without self-boasting too much, but what I did in 2017-18 was one of the most outstanding streaks the western community has ever seen from an active player of this forum. I know just how much respect I got for this from anyone who actually cares about the games. I am also aware about the fact that with success, more and more envy people will come up. That's just natural and not limited to shmups. And I couldn't care less about some random trolls on the net. Show yourself in person to me if you want me to take you seriously. If you wanna stay that infinite troll, I have nothing but a mild smile for you, if at all. agyx-groovy appears to be a very unoriginal troll as well. Please become more ridiculous, dude. Banana is a fucking wasp. He can kill you. You're merely an annoying fly at this point. Or you can turn into a beautiful butterfly and post some scores.

All this human drama would be much more tolerable, if we would post scores to the same extents on the other hand as well. That's why I am here at least. I don't care at all about collecting games or hardware questions. Even new games, while I can appreciate them, do not interest me too much. Get to work and figure out how to get 14mil in Guardian Force. Do your best and become the first outside of Japan to achieve 25mil in Batrider. Literally reach legendary status and uncover the DDP bug. Devote your life to an NMK game.

But with what you are doing, agyx-groovy, just fucking go home. This forum is not for you.

[agyx-groovy]

But with what you are doing, agyx-groovy, just fucking go home. This forum is not for you.

Please don't take this tone with me for simply relaying facts once pressed to do so, as for the latter it's important to have a multitude of perspectives to build a more diverse community and not end up in the echo chamber you seem to be advocating with this passive aggressive attack on a new member, may i refer you to the forum rules? I think you should read them then act accordingly.

The thing I like about Banana is his enormous self-hatred and bitterness about literally everything that isn't DDP or Rolling Gunner (and even those games he probably secretly hates). It reaches such extremes that it is nothing but comical. I can really appreciate this and I say this without too much irony. His Exa rant is tiring to read, but in a way hugely entertaining. I still wish he would actually be back at playing shmups tho.

Without self-boasting too much, but what I did in 2017-18 was one of the most outstanding streaks the western community has ever seen from an active player of this forum. I know just how much respect I got for this from anyone who actually cares about the games. I am also aware about the fact that with success, more and more envy people will come up. That's just natural and not limited to shmups. And I couldn't care less about some random trolls on the net. Show yourself in person to me if you want me to take you seriously. If you wanna stay that infinite troll, I have nothing but a mild smile for you, if at all. agyx-groovy appears to be a very unoriginal troll as well. Please become more ridiculous, dude. Banana is a fucking wasp. He can kill you. You're merely an annoying fly at this point. Or you can turn into a beautiful butterfly and post some scores.

All this human drama would be much more tolerable, if we would post scores to the same extents on the other hand as well. That's why I am here at least. I don't care at all about collecting games or hardware questions. Even new games, while I can appreciate them, do not interest me too much. Get to work and figure out how to get 14mil in Guardian Force. Do your best and become the first outside of Japan to achieve 25mil in Batrider. Literally reach legendary status and uncover the DDP bug. Devote your life to an NMK game.

Good heavens i actually feel sorry for you, sincerely i know not a single person who has envy for you... at all, but if it takes that self deluded condescending attitude to convince yourself otherwise so be it. It's just a video game my fellow adult and whilst you should feel good about your personal "achievement" don't feel bad if others simply have no interest in what is essentially arcade seat warming in a foreign land.

BTW have you heard of "pazzy"? I believe his 515 million on ketsui just last year in a very competitive game is actually the best achievement from an active player in the time frame you suggest... he doesn't seem to have your zeal though.

[Plasmo]

Look at me

I disagree. While I still like STGT as a format for what it is, I find it unfortunate that it only makes us play a game (often of questionable quality) for one week. I find it much more intereting to go indepth with one title and see where it can bring you. I would love to see more versus score attacks e.g. on Twitch. Why not have weekly head-to-head battles of Blackisto, Jaimers and perhaps Banana? They are more or less of equal skill and it would make up for an exciting watch, notwithstanding the different ships used.

Unfortunately neither Eaglet or me streams, so we cannot initiate something like this for Garegga. What other games are potential contenders? I know that many people are playing DOJ (wl or bl), but skill varies a lot here. How about Feedbacker vs. CRI though?

It would be sad to let this vs format go away again after Stunfest!

[agyx-groovy]

Look at me

Oh the irony. Thanks for showing us who you really are.

I'd like to add a special respectful mention for armchair general who in my mind is the better DP player, not only humble in decorum and sensible in perspective he did all the work himself instead of jetting off to japan for special tutoring from a literal cult of ridiculous beings.

Anyways Plasmo anyone who's serious about donpachi plays type-a because that's where the maximum scoring potential lay now learn from the generals attitude in pic related and come back down to earth.

[Shepardus]

Who cares if he made a pilgrimage to Japan and got strats from other people. Latching onto that reminds me of all the people getting so picky about how others play games for the sake of a "level playing field" or whatever, insisting that watching videos of others or using savestates to practice is "cheating" and should be disqualified. What happens within a run is all that matters for that run. I can't imagine that whatever secret strats this cult has are even that much of an advantage, there's not that much depth in the game. There's even a counterstop on YouTube that anybody can reference, whether it's "legit" or not.

[agyx-groovy]

Who cares if he made a pilgrimage to Japan and got strats from other people. Latching onto that reminds me of all the people getting so picky about how others play games for the sake of a "level playing field" or whatever, insisting that watching videos of others or using savestates to practice is "cheating" and should be disqualified. What happens within a run is all that matters for that run. I can't imagine that whatever secret strats this cult has are even that much of an advantage, there's not that much depth in the game. There's even a counterstop on YouTube that anybody can reference, whether it's "legit" or not.

Oh you don't know? for type-c plasmos run features "secret strats" of a particular jap player that ebisen arcade made him sign a clause that under no condition he would share them publicly or he will be banned for life (even kamuis been banned from there for sharing things from his OWN replay). The cs video is for type-a not c. He couldn't beat armchair when it was a level knowledge playing field and had to wait for the leet tutoring in japan first..... my god you couldn't make this stuff up.

[Shepardus]

I'm aware of that, but why does it matter? He used a different ship type from Armchair General (and one that has historically been lower-scoring at the top level). Big whoop. For someone who views others with such disdain for taking video games seriously as a "lifetime goal" in that other thread, you seem to be awfully serious about how others play games.

[agyx-groovy]

I'm aware of that, but why does it matter? He used a different ship type from Armchair General (and one that has historically been lower-scoring at the top level). Big whoop. For someone who views others with such disdain for taking video games seriously as a "lifetime goal" in that other thread, you seem to be awfully serious about how others play games.

You don't seem to have actually read the conversation and have taken upon yourself to argue a point no one else really is, all arguments here are pertaining to Plasmos own words and attitude so i suggest to refer to them and ask him why it matters because that's entirely the point I say it doesn't whilst his actions and verbalized thoughts state it as a life mission that he believes everyone respects him for or must be jealous and his advice to others is to "dedicate your life" to finding some scores and tricks in obscure arcade games, therefore your opening question applies directly to him and would require an awful lot of pedantic maneuvering and devils advocate to even dare to attempt to level it at those who criticize such notions. Then maybe pose a less lopsided defense force question in favor of neutrality and actually grasping the entirety of the discussion. Remember it's not me telling others to dedicate their lives to video games or spewing paragraphs of delusions of grandeur to appease his narcissism, it's him.

[ScrewedUp]

I agree. You're all embarrassments to the community and probably the biggest obstacle in attracting new players tbh.
Heard at stunfest that people who approached us were positively surprised as they we're expecting the autistic screeching you see on display at the forum these days.
Sad.

People who are interested in the genre will not be put off by the apparently omnipresent bickering between banana and xyga, stuff like that is to be expected from any community. As far as attracting new players goes, is there actually something other than the occasional steam sale/release to remind people that this genre exists ? Personally I haven't thought about it since ragequitting garegga more than twenty years ago until I recently stumbled across a box of console cartridges on the attic. Two weeks later i was hooked again and found my way here thanks to STG Weekly on youtube.

the matter is less about whether they're stupid to not explore the genre by themselves but how much they are influenced by the games and level of play that occupy most of the activity and actuality of the genre

I'd wager the majority of younger folks new to a genre will always flock to popular titles, especially if they're new and hot, or what could get em the most twitch/youtube views, no matter how many variety topics you make on a forum that will most likely only be visited by the ones in it for more than a superficial dalliance with the genre. The kind of people you are trying to disinfluence? influence otherwise? whatever, are going to listen to what watchmojo or some other top ten list on youtube tells em.
Why should you as a community change your actions on this forum to try and make sheep not sheep ? (How would this even look like ? Would people have to ask a mod for permission to create a third DDP topic on the front page ?) It's futile at best, but mainly dishonest, to yourselves and others.

[Shepardus]

I don't condone devoting one's life to a video game, and frankly I find quite exasperating the "post you're scores" attitude where scores and clears are used as a proxy for one's worth here, but I'd rather not give it more attention than it deserves. If his shmup achievements are so insignificant, it doesn't make sense to me to try to belittle them or uphold others as better, just ignore it like it's nothing.

Anyway, what was this thread about again?

In a live setting, I think it only brings an advantage over the usual 1-player demo if :
- the game has different enough scoring strategies so that simultaneous plays exhibit these differences.
- both plays are always synchronized (debatable).
- both players clear the game, or at least end scores can be compared (since it's a race to the highest score), with a post-run discussion on how the various strategies have led to these disparities in the end scores.

And I'm not sure these conditions can be realistically achieved for any STG, so I don't know...
It could be nice, and variety in demonstrations is always cool, but I'm not sure the genre is really suited for this kind of stuff.

I think the latter two can be easily designed for (see: every caravan game), but the first is tough. Not sure how important it really is, though - while it's certainly interesting to see and discuss different strategies, I think it'd still be fun to watch if players try to do similar things but have enough variability in their execution that they naturally diverge. I think it's more important that the scoring system (and survival) doesn't scale such that one mistake kills everything, so it's still possible to catch up. The "race" aspect is what sets this format apart from simply watching two videos, and that interaction's lost if anybody falls too far behind to have a chance. Like all those speedrun races where someone screws up and it becomes one person's speedrun next to others' game-over screens.

I kind of want to see a race of Mecha Ritz - IIRC the better you play and the more you push up rank, the faster the game scrolls, and at least in the original version having a fast clear time is very important to your final score, so even though side-by-side runs would desynchronize, it would be like a speedrun in that faster is understood as being better so you can still compare in a live setting. It's also very easy to clear (lots of lives, bombs, and shields) but has a lot of room for optimization (pushing up rank and dealing with high rank). It's also just a cool game.

[Nameschonvergeben]

I would love to see more versus score attacks e.g. on Twitch. Why not have weekly head-to-head battles of Blackisto, Jaimers and perhaps Banana? They are more or less of equal skill and it would make up for an exciting watch, notwithstanding the different ships used.

Unfortunately neither Eaglet or me streams, so we cannot initiate something like this for Garegga. What other games are potential contenders? I know that many people are playing DOJ (wl or bl), but skill varies a lot here. How about Feedbacker vs. CRI though?

It would be sad to let this vs format go away again after Stunfest!

I like this idea, in Touhou we used to have a yearly format called Sukoata that was like this and it was generally quite popular, until the host quit. However it's also quite a bit of work to organize something like this and someone would have to step up to the task. I'm not sure if a weekly format would really be feasible.
As far as candidate games go, I believe some of the Touhou games still have multiple active players, atleast EoSD and IN might be possible.

[ScrewedUp]

After watching the video (a link in the OP would have been a good idea) , I have to say the commentators did a way better job than expected, especially given the technical difficulties (and the game in question being garegga). Ignoring the fact that the difference in quality made me pay little attention to Plasmo's feed, I wouldn't worry about the players being in sync like the person who brought up speedruns in this context suggested. Missing a crucial skip in a speedrun can practically remove you from the race, but this is not a speedrun, and the player "being behind" could be behind because he milked a boss longer, and the run's not over til it's over. My only point of criticism for the video is the actual layout, but that surely wouldn't be done the same way again anyways I hope.

[youngmoneySWE]

My point was not that they should be in sync like a speedrun. I meant speedrun races often times have two screens next to each other, but since they often aren't synced it's easier to digest what's going on in both screens (and the commentators have more time to explain tricks etc.). I agree that the commentators did a really good job with commentating however!

I also ended up mainly watching Eaglet's feed, listening to the commentators. But as they explained the tricks, I didn't have time to quickly look over to Plasmo's feed to check if he got the same trick or how he was doing score-wise.

I'm all for the people travelling to Stunfest to battle it out in this format, and I loved to watch. But as a viewer I felt that the second feed didn't get any attention from me (sadly, should be added). So that's why I'm not sure it's the best format for the viewer (but great for the player).

[ScrewedUp]

Oh, sorry for misunderstanding/misinterpretating you then (as always I probably just skimmed over that post , making assumptions instead of actually reading). I agree, both players not being in sync does make things easier for both the commentators and the viewers.
How about the players actually starting out of sync ? Sure , it would give more attention to the one going first, but aside from making things easier for the audience and commentators, it would give viewers new to the game a point of reference when looking at player two. Since it's a demonstration/score competition and not a race it should be okay.
And since probably not a lot of you guys stream or put every run you do on youtube, it provides an opportunity to see how people tackle a situation if everything does not go according to plan.

[youngmoneySWE]

No worries.

I was also thinking about starting off sync. Like one stage apart. Main focus for one commentator could then be explaining the runner going first, and the co-commentator could be more focused on the second run ("Y is now coming up to the second boss as well, let's see how it goes for score"). Best way to test this might be to do a practice run with commentators to see if it works out for the best.

[Eaglet]

Good ideas!
This will be interesting to try out in future iterations.