The term 'euroshmup'

[Jeneki]

I wouldn't class Air Buster's outer space stages as the same kind of input-laggy slidey-ness. In that, if you change direction on your joystick it responds immediately without additional slide before changing directions. And hey if you don't want any slide, just hack your joystick gate so that neutral = left, and play Galaga style.

So anyone here into board games? "Ameritrash" is a term there.

[Sumez]

Hah, I was actually just thinking about the term "Ameritrash" in comparison to "Euroshmup" earlier...
In board games, European is usually a sign of quality, however in the context of "Ameritrash", it is quite often used lovingly, with a lot of people actually appreciating board games that do a lot to support the themes and world building, as well as the light strategy and ability to rely on randomness. In comparison, Eurogames tend to be somewhat abstract, and can involve quite heavy strategizing.
Twilight Imperium is a textbook example of ameritrash, and it's one of the most popular board games out there, even among hardcore board game geeks.

I have heard people try to use the term "Euroshmup" lovingly, but usually you'd have a hard time defending that stance.

[Stevens]

Twilight Imperium

Love me some board games, but a three to four hour play time? Fuck that.

[Sumez]

Lol, good luck finishing that game in four hours

[Durandal]

Even though 'euroshmup' is used to denote shmups made in Europe designed with 'retropean' sensibilities, where depth and fun is attempted to be had through breadth, how many of these are actually non-British?

I've been reviewing the catalogue of good Amiga games recently, and most of them are Made in UK, with the exception of artsy fartsy stuff from France and p'n'c's/RTSs from America. Obviously it's not like any shmups of note ever came out of the UK (don't worry danbo, I'm not including Scotland), though the UK certainly has been the major epicenter of innovative Amiga games, whereas good games from mainland Europe seem to be as rare as shiny Pokemon.

Personally I think euroshmups are endemic of a larger degenerate train of thought common amongst (pre-)early 90's European video game developers which I call 'retropean', something responsible for creating extravagant amounts of derivative garbage as a result of not having any better idea in terms of design, or as a result of the demoscene zeitgeist where everyone wanted to flex their coding muscles rather than make something fun. You could tell when someone had a better idea of what he was doing design-wise: Turrican 1 and 2 were pretty good under Manfeld Trenz, but after he stepped down you'd end up with Super Turrican 2 which was a glorified Mode 7 showcase.

As a whole I'm not sure whether I should consider the UK (and maybe France) not a part of Europe just so the 'retropean' definition makes any sense. Meanwhile in America they were establishing the groundwork for RPGs, FPSs, adventure games and RTSs, in Japan arcades were booming, in the UK they were coming up with all kinds of shit, but in the mainland you had what? Sports games?

I may just be talking out of my ass here, if the majority of 'proper' euroshmup examples turned out to be British then perhaps it would be more accurate to call them Britishmups.

[Xyga]

I don't think the 'euro' in 'euroshmup' was ever meant in a 'political europe' sense, just the geographical.

It doesn't have to make too much sense either, it's just to identify a rough 'sub-family' of games.

If we wanted to be anal then what to do with the fact that it's mostly about games running on an American machine?

*shrugs*

EDIT: #merishmups #fuckyeahshmups #bongshmups #migashmups

[Sumez]

I'm fairly sure Manfeld Trenz was mainland Europe

If we wanted to be anal then what to do with the fact that it's mostly about games running on an American machine?

What machine are you thinking of here?
I was assuming the primary hive of the euroshmup was the Amiga, which is as European as it gets.
EDIT: Apparently I was wrong. Somehow I'd come to believe that the Amiga was an Italian product that was bought up by Commodore, since they were afraid of losing to their competition.


I think everyone is accepting of the fact that a euroshmup can originate from any pace in the world, even potentially Japan, however it's very obviously heavily centered around Europe (mainland or not). I think people have a tendency to group together all western shooters even, but in a rare defense of America, I'd say a lot of Americans at the time actually knew what they were doing.

[Turrican]

in a rare defense of America, I'd say a lot of Americans at the time actually knew what they were doing.

They sure did, and that's part of what I'm trying to get at; Americans had an arcade cabinet industry. I'm still convinced *that* is the major difference here. Sure, European sensibiliies were into the artsy side of things, but nothing could have prevented to have, say, Agony with the same care put into background art and style direction, AND a compelling gameplay, if only the developers had to test it to sustain the interest that a single cabinet has to generate in an arcade room. An attraction that must endure, and beat the competition always-on around.

There's a very good reason Defender and Tempest are never criticized in that field.

At the same time, if "euroshmup" is just "style over substance" it means very little. A Japanese production can be one (Sine Mora), an European tightly conceived one cannot be one (Dropzone, Uridium)... It's very misleading, also because it's rooted in the past. For example, I'm not sure the European indie efforts of today continue to "not get it" in the same way of the earlier efforts. They still "not get it", that's a given, but in new ways...

And yet, it was the Japanese that flooded their own creation with lolis, and nowadays it's a single Spaniard that carries the Gradius torch on...

[Shepardus]

And yet, it was the Japanese that flooded their own creation with lolis

I thought people here prided themselves on caring about gameplay over graphics, no?

[MathU]

I think a French poster here really encapsulated the idea in a scathingly accurate way a while back, which I've edited a bit for clarity:

Euroshmups are basically a kind of gaming spirit. In fact, all the specificies of euroshmups come from what pedant people would call a "cultural thing".

The real point is that, somehow, a shooter is mostly a game where you shoot things and dodge bullets.

This definition is far too vulgar for any European mind. I mean, no ''real European man'' can enjoy a simple thing like that AND keep looking into a mirror with some respect for himself. Because it's a definition that makes the game a matter of agility, and not of intelligence and strategy. And this, for a ''genuine European mind'', is the most despicable thing of all.

So Euroshmups are a (mostly missed) attempt to "level-up" the intellectual interest of the genre. So to say, a desperate attempt to turn poker into chess.

This is achieved by adding to shmups the most unexpected of elements, and there are basically three different types:
-adding difficulties to destroying enemies (limited ammo, weapon management, weak weapons, excessive enemy health, etc.)
-adding difficulties to controlling the ship (ship control taking care of gravity or inertia, needlessly aping the old Asteroids style of acceleration and turn buttons, etc.)
-adding difficulties in the level design and gameplay (level traps, things that kill you before you're dead because you need to know ahead of time that you need X amount of health to survive something that isn't dodgeable, everything that requires a complete anti-natural behavior)

So Euroshmups are basically games that tend to give the bigger possible malus to players who rely on action skill. They usually are insanely difficult and frustrating for those who try to beat them by playing them in the manner of a typical arcade action game.

I think the best explanation is that Euroshmups are all about hiding or obfuscating the fundamentals of the genre with mechanics that make the things they're normally good at harder to enjoy.

... and nowadays it's a single Spaniard that carries the Gradius torch on...

While I enjoy most of Locomalito's games for what they are, I've often felt like he doesn't quite "get it" either. I think he has a tendency to ape the lesser of old arcade mechanics while missing or misunderstanding what people really like about classics.

[Turrican]

MathU, I enjoyed the Hibou analysis there. I'm politely trying to subvert the perspective though... In a sense, this perspective give Europe too much credit (they alone saw bare agility as something which had to be sophisticated, and took the burden to do that in their hands, failing). My idea is that roughly after Galaga, adding complexity was something which originates in Japan (Gradius powerups, R-type sentient pods and so on, in-stage shops and you name it), and it was at this peak of the trend that Europe's scene became "addicted" or charmed to the genre. So they tried to ape that trend of adding complexity.
In the Japanese coin-op scene there was a counterstrike if you will, with Toaplan products for example, to streamline the concepts, retaining what had been proved to work, and discarding what didn't (something only by actually playing extensively and enjoying the genre in its natural habitat you can mature). Europe never clicked on *this* evolution. They continued to see Salamander or R-Type as the model to imitate. I don't think any "euroshmup" of the classic period is trying to go after Twin Cobra.

btw, I also took note on your comment "Hydorah more Axelay than Gradius" in the other thread, and I'm inclined to agree with you there. As I said, different, evolved ways of still "not getting it".

A couple quick answers:

Come on, look at all plaftorms, dammit. I dont see ton of (new) japanese shmups on other consoles either. "Crisis" just now? Have you not witnessed state of genre of last 5-8 years? 90% of new releases are indie/doujin, eh

Yeah of course, I'm not blind... Let me rephrase, more than the evident crisis, is the approach on how to survive it that struck me as different.

Shepardus, concept design is more than graphics, and the moe phenomenon is a sign of infantilism. Insert mandatory Miyazaki "mistake" quote etc.

[qmish]

Sine Mora is Eastern Europe (Hungary) though, aside from character design/art style/music/sound that was produced on Japanese side. I guess (need to check credits)

[Sumez]

Yup, Sine Mora was, unsurprisingly, European. The developes were posting here while it was in development, and then promptly disappeared after its release. It's an example of a game that really tried and wanted to be inspired by the Japanese shooters, but still didn't get it.

[Sumez]

In a sense, this perspective give Europe too much credit (they alone saw bare agility as something which had to be sophisticated, and took the burden to do that in their hands, failing).

What is the problem with that, though?
I think it's obvious that there's a lot more to the Euroshmup tendency than just "Europeans suck at making action games because they are from Europe". I think it's very obvious that there's a cultural aspect to not being able to accept the apparent simplicity of just dodging and shooting.

I thought people here prided themselves on caring about gameplay over graphics, no?

I've seen a lot of people admit that the graphical representation is a huge part of why they like certain shooters. It definitely is a big thing for me, and I also mentioned that a few posts back, that I think the "spectacle" is an important part of a shooter.
That doesn't mean a shooter has to have amazing graphics to be good, but if the presentation is off-putting, that can definitely hurt the experience.

[Xyga]

Everything is important in a game whether the gameplay/mechanics, graphics and animation, sound/music, etc
Of course if it's chess the visuals don't matter much, but for shooters it's always been crucial, shmups have long been technlogy and dev/art skills demonstrators as much as they are purely arcade games (at least until they got marginalized by polygonal everything)

[Turrican]

What is the problem with that, though?
I think it's obvious that there's a lot more to the Euroshmup tendency than just "Europeans suck at making action games because they are from Europe". I think it's very obvious that there's a cultural aspect to not being able to accept the apparent simplicity of just dodging and shooting.

Nothing wrong per se, but let's try to put things into context: I think that for a time, these added layers of complexity, not only in gameplay elements (shops, branching paths, pods you name it) but also in the sense of an "artistic" research (Forgotten Worlds comes to mind here, with the egypt theme, but also the organic stages in Lifeforce) was pursued in Japan before, and Europe was "naturally" attracted to that, I guess. They tried to mimic a tendency that was there already. Japan then discarded it in the arcades, or to be more precise, they naturally refocused on the basic premises of dodging and shooting, prioritizing it over the "mood"... That is, cabinet approach versus home software approach: a dichotomy that explains it much better than "East versus West".

Example: try to figure out mentally the arcade Gradius series versus the MSX in-house developed Nemesis trilogy and MSX Salamander... These were conceived on home computers and so you'll be able to single out several ideas (long intro cutscenes, developing of backstory etc) that might have an euroshmup flavor, if seen from this perspective.

[qmish]

https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comment ... _continue/

7 years ago

What we need is a shmup with rpg leveling elements (shields/weapons,etc) and new parts for your ship that you can buy with some currency (kinda like Raptor: Call of the Shadows) that stays when you die and the ennemies should scale with your leveling to keep the challenge going forever!

+ all usual shit like "we played them all in childhood, no progress of genre" "dont wanna memorize 45 min of game for 100 hours" etc

[Sumez]

Man that entire thread is cringeworthy, but it really does sum up perfectly why euroshmups exist, and continue to exist.

[qmish]

Kind of there are people who can only stomach euroshmups, so they ask for more of such.

I noticed reply "gamers now expect games to be beaten on first try". Well yeah ideology of home gaming since ps1 era - difficulty is that you beat it at one play (maybe loading saved game several times), length coming from length (long levels, many of levels, story) and don't return back

[xxx1993]

So aren't games like Iridion, Nanostray, Sky Force, and Soldner-X all examples of "euroshmups"?

[Udderdude]

Remember to stay alert. Euroshmups could appear anywhere, at any time. Even in your breakfast cereal.

[Weak Boson]

. That is, cabinet approach versus home software approach: a dichotomy that explains it much better than "East versus West".

I agree with this. Euroshmups as I understand them are games made for play on consoles/ home computers, not arcades.

To me it makes perfect sense that a shmup developed for a home system could (not should) be different in conception from an arcade game. If you judge a Euroshmup as an arcade game of course it will fail. As it happens, many of them also fail as console games. But that doesn't mean it's impossible for a shmup with a different design philosophy to be good.

'euroshmup' makes sense as a pejorative to level at games coded by lazy developers ignorant of the arcade fundamentals of the genre because they are thousands of miles from any cabs. But I'm on board with trying to reclaim the term.

Developers of euroshmups aren't trying to make good arcade games. The question is, what are they trying to do, and could it actually be good if done well? Are there any examples of games with a kernel of potential?

[To Far Away Times]

Would Astebreed be considered a Euroshmup? It was pretty decent, not exceptional but not bad.

[Shepardus]

Would Astebreed be considered a Euroshmup? It was pretty decent, not exceptional but not bad.

Why would you, though? I don't see anything "euroshmuppy" about it.

[Xyga]

it's easy to identify euroshmups, they're the more taxing on the player's enthusiasm

[Sly Cherry Chunks]

Did you know Xenon II loops? The second loop has increased enemy HP. The third loop has even more. Not even WinUAE's every-frame autofire could get me past the third loop, who knows what scores lie beyond??

4-2 has what appears to be an infinite milking spot - except you don't get points for the infinite stream of enemies and the cash-drops seems to max out at 12,000. Wikipedia contradicts this so I might have to do some testing!

IIRC the game gives you an extra continue at 1 mil. Now that's weird!!

[xxx1993]

Would Astebreed be considered a Euroshmup? It was pretty decent, not exceptional but not bad.

Isn't Astebreed Japanese?

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Isn't Astebreed Japanese?

The term "euroshmup" doesn't refer to a game's nationality per se, it's just a slang term used to describe the style of shmup that is commonly associated with developers from the European PC 90s game scene. Non-arcadey design choices like big hitboxes, large health bars, inertia, etc.

There are European developed shmups for instance that are definitely not "euroshmups" either, such as Armalyte.

I remember as a kid having a lot of fun with Raptor: Call of the Shadows, Stargunner, and Tyrian 2000. But they don't live up to arcade shmups now. Pacing's slow in Raptor, and it's super easy when you get enough money to stack shields and use the laser beams of death. Stargunner's health bar, large hitbox, and bullets that are often difficult to see due to poor colour contrast are all no fun. Tyrian 2000 is still pretty fun nowadays and has some interesting elements like the command inputs, but the massive amount of content doesn't make up for the questionable elements like inertia in movement, bounciness when you're hit, TWO lifebars to manage (shield and armor)... it feels very loose and imprecise to play compared to an arcade shmup.

So aren't games like Iridion, Nanostray, Sky Force, and Soldner-X all examples of "euroshmups"?

The first Iridion is more a rail shooter akin to Star Fox, but yeah, it has a massive hitbox and life meter with health items. The second game is pretty decent for a shmup, and is very playable, but it does have some euroshmuppy elements such as the huge lifebar and fairly large hitbox I guess?

[Sine Mora was] an example of a game that really tried and wanted to be inspired by the Japanese shooters, but still didn't get it.

It was destined for failure. Stripping the central mechanics from Giga Wing and Espgaluda while removing their scoring meaningfulness was bad enough, but the various questionable choices such as Darius Gaiden-like low default autofire that could be broken with hardware autofire, no slowdown button for precision dodging through dense patterns, no control customization (only presets)... It was a shmup made by people who weren't playing modern shmups seriously enough to keep abreast of modern quality of life design choices that have become the expected norm.

The time = life mechanic also adds a euroshmuppy lifebar feel to it and frankly isn't a fun mechanic (the kusoge Wisplisp Array of List got away with it because it's a kusoge so who cares, and has a caravan shmup feel to it).

It's a shame, because graphically it's an incredibly pretty shmup, and there was clearly a lot of effort that went into the game. But it's horribly mediocre, and so not worth playing.

[Despatche]

Would like to remind the thread that it's not shops, or health bars, or inertia themselves that are the problem, but the fact that these have become omens of a very particular strain of game that tends to use all of these elements, seemingly for the sole purpose of covering up for bad design. So there's a lot of revulsion to anything that resembles shops, or health bars, or inertia (especially), or so on, in a game that's not made in Japan... or rather, East Asia in general, actually. What a typical East Asian person and a typical European person think of a "shmup" and of designing such a game are fundamentally different things, and unfortunately one way of thinking is significantly worse than the other on average. That is simply how history played out.

Large hitboxes typically mean nothing because tons of older games anywhere have large hitboxes, it just makes sense and comes with the territory. Sure, they "upset" people, but again, the real problem is if that large hitbox makes a pattern impossible to dodge. This is why what I call "raw difficulty" is so important: if you're not getting completely bodied from the word go because your starting weaponry sucks, if your health bar isn't being used to soak up literally undodgeable attacks, and so on, you're not really a euroshmup. People can dislike things all they want, but until those things go against fundamental design principles like "don't make undodgeable bullshit", they are merely personal feelings that do not make a statement of the game's actual design

Iridion II is not really a euroshmup to the best of my knowledge, nor are the other Shin'en games like the Nanostrays and Nano Assault. Shin'en is pretty good about that sort of thing.

Inertia is kind of a cardinal sin. It serves no real purpose other than to make the game needlessly "realistic" in a really minor and really annoying way. The absolutely vast majority of games that use inertia are games that can be described as euroshmups for other reasons, so it's a really big sign of bad things to come.

[MathU]

To me it makes perfect sense that a shmup developed for a home system could (not should) be different in conception from an arcade game. If you judge a Euroshmup as an arcade game of course it will fail. As it happens, many of them also fail as console games. But that doesn't mean it's impossible for a shmup with a different design philosophy to be good.

I think Hellsinker is an excellent example of how to step outside of arcade shooter paradigms while still retaining the thrill of arcade design.