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Which Milestone game is your favorite?
Chaos Field 42%  42%  [ 31 ]
illvelo 4%  4%  [ 3 ]
Karous 14%  14%  [ 10 ]
Radirgy 36%  36%  [ 26 ]
Radirgy Noa 4%  4%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 73
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:24 pm 


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Milestone hate never dies
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:32 am 


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The solution to this conundrum seems obvious: cell-shaded Chaos Field.

Bananamatic wrote:
so now we're actively trying to kill the exa
that was fast


So, you think all Milestone games are bad or just Chaos Field? Or just shitposting because I don't really get your angle here.


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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:00 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
I find the results strange too, if you know Milestone you just don't pick that one. Welp.

oh yes if you delved much into it you certainly do :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:36 pm 


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My Milestone ranking would be as follows:
-Illvelo & Radirgy
-Karous
-Radirgy Noa
-Chaos Field

Milestone is probably my favorite shmup developer and I've played those games quite a bit, but in the end the difference betwen Chaos Field and the other games' playstyle is just way too big for me. Can the Chaos Field fans explain why they prefer it to the rest of Milestone's shmup catalog, aside from the aesthetics? I am kinda curious.
ciox wrote:
The solution to this conundrum seems obvious: cell-shaded Chaos Field.

A cell-shaded Chaos Field would be an interesting experiment I admit!
If they do a Chaos Field sequel, I wonder if they wouldn't also incorporate mechanics from their later shmups, given how going back to the Chaos Field template without using any of the experience they gained while working on Radirgy & co. could seem like a waste.
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:03 pm 


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Aesthetics gotta be the only reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:20 am 


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It's all about the scoring system for me. I love optimizing the stage-long chaining system and coming up with creative ways to maintain it. I like Karous and Radirgy too (still have yet to play Noa or Illvelo). I found Radirgy a lot harder to get into than Chaos Field because juggling its scoring system can be so tricky. And while I definitely dig Karous's scoring system, it doesn't have all the cool bosses of Chaos Field. I'd say on the whole the bosses in both Radirgy and Karous are a lot less thrilling due to the shielding system present in those games.

One thing I will say is I don't even know how people can stand to play Chaos Field on its original NAOMI/Dreamcast hardware. The slowdown is appalling to a degree that I don't think I would be able to enjoy it. Perhaps that's part of why it turns off a lot of people? The slowdown-free Gamecube port is the definitive version of the game but I don't know many have actually played that version.
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:11 am 


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M.Knight wrote:
If they do a Chaos Field sequel, I wonder if they wouldn't also incorporate mechanics from their later shmups, given how going back to the Chaos Field template without using any of the experience they gained while working on Radirgy & co. could seem like a waste.

Actually, this wouldn't be a bad idea. Chaosfield is very different from all later MileStone games, neither better or worse for it. Because of this, there's not really anything to "learn" from later games, except for weird console-exclusive "challenge" modes I guess.
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:53 am 


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LordHypnos wrote:
Wow, Milestone revival? New Takumi game next, I hope :P


Another Giga Wing, please. Carry over the point-blank scoring from Generations, & bring back GW2's blizzards. If it's not a problem, maybe voiced characters in-game. I'm not worried about VOs for cut-scenes. I missed "Reflectooor Laaaseeer!", "Reflectooor Fooorce!", & "Spaaaaark Boooombeeeeer!" in GWG & the NAOMI/USA Dreamcast versions of GW2. These voices sound truly epic when mixed with the in-game BGM. A GW4 should go with a more futuristic setting than the others.

For a Milestone game, I pick Chaos Field.
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:01 am 


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gameoverDude wrote:
LordHypnos wrote:
Wow, Milestone revival? New Takumi game next, I hope :P


Another Giga Wing, please.

I just want to see how many score digits they can fit on today's 4K displays.
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 10:26 am 


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Screw 4k. I only switched to 1080p on my desktop 2 years ago, and 768p still good enough on laptop.

Tons of photos, images and videos that you have if you are long time user, all that 240p content.. (I don't talk games) looks like shit on utrahighres or very small.

So in the end you have to own several displays
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:22 am 


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MathU wrote:
It's all about the scoring system for me. I love optimizing the stage-long chaining system and coming up with creative ways to maintain it. I like Karous and Radirgy too (still have yet to play Noa or Illvelo). I found Radirgy a lot harder to get into than Chaos Field because juggling its scoring system can be so tricky. And while I definitely dig Karous's scoring system, it doesn't have all the cool bosses of Chaos Field. I'd say on the whole the bosses in both Radirgy and Karous are a lot less thrilling due to the shielding system present in those games.

One thing I will say is I don't even know how people can stand to play Chaos Field on its original NAOMI/Dreamcast hardware. The slowdown is appalling to a degree that I don't think I would be able to enjoy it. Perhaps that's part of why it turns off a lot of people? The slowdown-free Gamecube port is the definitive version of the game but I don't know many have actually played that version.

Ah, I can see what you mean with the creativeness in keeping up the chain. I think of the stage 2-1 (or was it 2-2?) boss that temporarily leaves the screen and you have to abuse the lock-on's ability to freeze the chain timer in order to keep it alive until the boss comes back. Besides, you generally have multiple ways to increase your chain counter and maintain it, I suppose it's that kind of freedom that makes it stand out from other more rigid chaining shmups.

Having to milk most if not all of the bosses every single run makes it a bit difficult for me to do multiple runs of the game, but maybe I should give it more tries. I do have the GC version, which is indeed the best one. None of the crippling slowdown, scores and config are properly saved, an arrange mode is included, and the sound balance is impeccable unlike the Milestone Shooting Collection 2 version which SFX are too damn loud.

Radirgy's scoring system can seem a bit tricky at first because you have to balance the enemy destruction and the bullet cancelling to maintain your multiplier, but I think this complexity mostly comes into play at the beginning of each stage to get the mutiplier up, and during bosses to maintain it. Once you reach stage 3, you'll have so many enemies to kill that you can regularly fire the ABS-Net and tear the enemy waves apart without having to worry about the multiplier decreasing.

Due to the shield system, the bosses are indeed pretty different in how you approach them compared to Chaos Field. Karous in particular is more focused on a series of counterattacks. The later bosses throw so much shit at you that deploying your shield is mandatory to absorb the bullets, launch them back at the boss and fill your DFS, which you can use to get invincibility and point-blank the bosses with your sword. It gives a certain rythm to the fights but there is little focus on actual bullet dodging.

Illvelo's bosses are pretty fun to me. They do have a similar style of counterttacking with your shield, but due to the detachable module system, you have to tactically move them over the boss's bullet spawning spots. In some ways, this is a callback to Chaos Field's Wing Layer that is best used on top of the bullet spawners.

Despatche wrote:
Actually, this wouldn't be a bad idea. Chaosfield is very different from all later MileStone games, neither better or worse for it. Because of this, there's not really anything to "learn" from later games, except for weird console-exclusive "challenge" modes I guess.

You have a point, but from a developer's standpoint, I am sure there are unused ideas that they wouldn't mind putting in a new Chaos Field game, or elements that they put in Chaos Field that they regret implementing or would like to rebalance. On top of that, the people have changed, their sensibilities are not the same and they can be open to new features or ideas. You can also see that in the cell-shaded games. While each has a common base design philosophy (caravan shooting, shot/sword/shield/bomb, no contact damage, etc.), the weapon system has evolved within that framework. So I think Chaos Field can also evolve this way, but I guess time will tell what Milestone will come up with.
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 11:34 am 


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qmish wrote:
768p still good enough on laptop.

Clearly you've never had to do any work on a computer if you think 768p is "good enough" (I would know, my personal laptop is 1366x768). So yes, you do need several displays, but it's for the screen real estate (and the convenience of keeping one in vertical orientation).

But whatever, that has nothing to do with the comment I made as a joke.
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:42 pm 


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Quote:
Clearly you've never had to do any work on a computer


except i had (both on 15" 1366x768 laptop and "mah comfortable" 24" or bigger 1080p)

:roll:

photoshop/illustrator and 3d editors etc. are more comfortable on larger screen with big resolution, and?


just fuck that race, man. where are good times like having 480i for ten years? ain't gonna change my 1080p desktop (and before that i had 1280x1024 monitor for ages) / 768p laptop combo and whatever.

My argument against high res has nothing to with your argument for high res.

My point was that you have to have several displays like, if you want, 4k for your "work" needs, and lower res one for all that damn old content you have since 90s that would look small or shit on highres, including photos, videos/movies (not all of them are remastered for fullhd or 4k , ya'know) and sometimes games too lol

while at the same time i just note that "oh geez i need higher resolution" is usually wah wah wah, and i say that "da fak wrong with you, its good enough for casual home usage and what not)

Ok, now insert debates about how Milestone games were created for 480p, so if you run them in 4k they will look like meh due to low-poly models and 256x256 textures
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 2:34 pm 


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qmish wrote:
My point was that you have to have several displays like, if you want, 4k for your "work" needs, and lower res one for all that damn old content you have since 90s that would look small or shit on highres, including photos, videos/movies (not all of them are remastered for fullhd or 4k , ya'know) and sometimes games too lol

This is one thing that was nice about multisyncing CRT monitors. Best of both worlds. Also no lag.

gameoverDude wrote:

Another Giga Wing, please. Carry over the point-blank scoring from Generations, & bring back GW2's blizzards. If it's not a problem, maybe voiced characters in-game. I'm not worried about VOs for cut-scenes. I missed "Reflectooor Laaaseeer!", "Reflectooor Fooorce!", & "Spaaaaark Boooombeeeeer!" in GWG & the NAOMI/USA Dreamcast versions of GW2. These voices sound truly epic when mixed with the in-game BGM. A GW4 should go with a more futuristic setting than the others.

Make it happen, EXA!
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:28 am 


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Shepardus wrote:
gameoverDude wrote:
LordHypnos wrote:
Wow, Milestone revival? New Takumi game next, I hope :P


Another Giga Wing, please.

I just want to see how many score digits they can fit on today's 4K displays.


That also. Every GW sequel made the scores more crazy. Generations has scores going into quintillions/kei. Maybe scores in the 10^24 (jo) range for GW4. World record score would probably be something like 1,3200,7839,3400,1000,2350,1070 using the Japanese myriad system. 1,320,078,393,400,100,023,501,070 in the thousands system. 1.32 septillion, whew. Bring that on. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:43 am 



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There has never been a lot of support for Milestone on this forum, so it's not surprising that Chaos Field received the most votes as it's the Milestone STG which is least representative of the Milestone spirit.

The strengths of Milestone STG are aesthetics, atmosphere, setting, characters, and music.
Users on this forum prioritize mechanics and systems over those aspects.

I think that Milestone STG actually have very interesting and unique systems and mechanics.

My suggestion for a new Milestone STG would be for the staff to take their time and think about making something that only they could make. Personally I would like to see the staff challenge themselves to devise a completely new setting and cast of characters rather than another sequel.


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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:19 am 


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gameoverDude wrote:
Shepardus wrote:
I just want to see how many score digits they can fit on today's 4K displays.


That also. Every GW sequel made the scores more crazy. Generations has scores going into quintillions/kei. Maybe scores in the 10^24 (jo) range for GW4. World record score would probably be something like 1,3200,7839,3400,1000,2350,1070 using the Japanese myriad system. 1,320,078,393,400,100,023,501,070 in the thousands system. 1.32 septillion, whew. Bring that on. :)

you could artificially increase the amount of numbers you get for literally any game
doesn't make it a better game


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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:46 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:28 am 


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you could instead increase the amount of stages that don't make you fall asleep


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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:43 am 


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Casually 1cc'd Gigawing a few weeks ago and can confirm that the first 3-4 stages make for a potent sleep aid.

A shame everything after that is legit great. But you could always just play Mars Matrix instead, which does literally everything better. Or Gigawing 2 which I hear is also more interesting.
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:40 pm 


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Squire Grooktook wrote:
Or Gigawing 2 which I hear is also more interesting.

I definitely liked GW2 a lot (probably at least tied with Zero Gunner 2 and Gunbird 2 for my second favorite game, right now), but I could see people criticizing it on a number of counts. For example, the last 3 stages (5, 6, 7) aren't actual stages, just bosses. I don't really mind this because IMO they're very fun bosses, and the game is already around 20 minutes long, so it doesn't really need more, but it does give it the feeling of maybe having been rushed. Additionally, the first 3 stages, when playing strictly for survival, are pretty easy, so there's really only one challenging stage. Scoring is a lot of fun however, if occasionally frustrating, and the stages aren't overly long, so playing through them isn't really a chore. Plus, IDK, it's not like you can just stay in one place until stage 4, there's still a lot of weaving around bullets and stuff. Hard for me to compare to the original Giga Wing, because it's been so long since I've played it. The boss fights are all pretty fun, too, and I found 3, 4, 6, and 7 to all be decently hard. Especially 6. Also I guess I died a lot of times in stage 5, but I felt pretty stupid for it.

I think I mostly like it due to it's design similarities to Mars Matrix, especially the bullet patterns, but I do feel like the stage design is a lot better in Mars Matrix. I would not be too surprised if this changed with more score focused play, though. I ended up doing barely any scoring at all (only 8 quadrillions of points, which is nothing in GW2 terms). I'm guessing the first 4 stages of Giga Wing are a lot more difficult and fun if you're playing for score, as well, although I couldn't get into the game when I tried it.

TL;DR: I really liked GW2, but YMMV
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:01 pm 


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Am I the only one who thinks the first Giga Wing is better than Giga Wing 2?
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:13 pm 


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Kollision wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks the first Giga Wing is better than Giga Wing 2?

Personally I'm with you on that; I can't blame them for having tried some new things out in GW2, but considering how few of them returned in Generations, it would seem that Takumi would probably have agreed that their abandonment was largely for the better.
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:37 am 


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I don't like the medals in GW2. They're much more cool in the first game, volcanons notwithstanding.
Plus the music in GW2 a letdown imo.

GW2 has its share of great moments, but overall GW tops that too - as others put it well in the final stretch of the game.
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:36 am 


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FYI, GW1-2 and Mars Matrix are Capcom IP.
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:40 pm 


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I voted Chaos Field, but mostly because I put the most time into that one, and because I enjoy the sword mechanic. Still balls hard.
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:40 pm 


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Kollision wrote:
Plus the music in GW2 a letdown imo.

I'm also of the GW1 > GW2 camp, both gameplay-wise and aesthetically (hell yes to the music in GW2 being a letdown). Mars Matrix is by far my favorite Takumi game though, and maybe in my top 5 favorite shooters.

More on topic... eww gross CHAOS FIELD winning the poll? I had to vote Radilgy just to help change that.


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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:52 am 


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Who owns the catalog to their titles? Would love to see these games re-release.
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:22 pm 


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Personally, I was burnt big time by Milestone/Klon by purchasing this garbage:

Image

The games ran badly and never got patched. It was my first and last Milestone-related purchase. Radirgy is by far the most salvageable game from them from an artsyle and music standpoint. Gameplay across all their games is terrible however. If one of these games got an updated version, the gameplay should be looked into IMO.

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so now we're actively trying to kill the exa
that was fast

Lmao
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 Post subject: Re: Milestone - Influence What Comes Next
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:14 pm 


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Yeah, SFA is one of the worst ways to discover the Milestone shmups, can't blame you for having a sour experience with it.
The issue with the ports is that despite the multiple compilations, there isn't an ultimate, be-all and end-all version where you can enjoy every single game with all the bonus modes in the best conditions. The closest thing we have to this so far is Milestone Shooting Collection 2 on the Wii which has all 5 games but even then, only Karous, Radirgy and Illvelo are not lacking in essential stuff. Chaos Field has sound balance issues, and both Radirgy Noa and Chaos Field don't save scores (at least when played on a region unlocked non-JP Wii). And even then, there's still some bonus modes missing for most of the games. Not a big deal when discovering the games, but kinda annoying when you want more.

I suppose the best version for each game would be as follows :
-Chaos Field : GameCube standalone port for proper sound balance, lack of almost-permanant slowdown, high-score saving, and the bonus "Original" mode.
-Radirgy : GameCube standalone port for the bonus "Manpuku" mode.
-Karous : Milestone Shooting Collection 2
-Illvelo : Milestone Shooting Collection 2
-Radirgy Noa : Radirgy Noa Massive on the 360 for the bonus modes, though Radirgy Noa Wii instead has a bonus Illvelo mode.

What didn't you like about the gameplay though? Are the bullet cancelling mechanics too leniant for you? Or is it something else?
These shmups are mostly about scoring so the game mechanics make survival rather easy, especially in Karous and Illvelo.
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