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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:30 pm 


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Joined: 09 Aug 2017
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Location: Australia
Yeah tusecsy needs to chill the fk out.

Neodev, sorry if i missed but did you ever publicize your H V sync combining circuit?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:31 pm 



Joined: 27 Jul 2012
Posts: 86
tusecsy wrote:
It didn't work there, you're either lying or ignorant or both. Csync does not work with your device, that's obvious.



I have tested my SSDS3 with the composite sync into my Sony PVM and it works. However my OSSC will not sync to it.


There is obviously some hardware issues going on here. It's also apparent that Neosd realizes this now and will work to find a solution.


So instead of the constant ad hominem attacks, perhaps give them some room to breathe and attempt to work this issue out?


Considering what this device does and what it brings to the table, maybe you can let up on them and let them sort this out.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:32 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 392
Neodev wrote:
I know your message was positive, i was trying to state that we listened you and others before take the final decision about SSDS3 rgb issue before launch ... This was the goal of my answer

Maybe we're just misunderstanding each other. Sorry!

@tusecsy - Almost every post from you is rude and useless. How about going back to the kids table while the adults talk?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:34 pm 


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Posts: 516
Location: USA
Neodev wrote:





We are 6 and as far as i know we tried the csync cable and it worked here. Obviously not everyone works on the same product/area
We are trying to determine why it worked here, this is what i been told today.

Thanks


I have a question,

As I understand it (I think); You are taking horizontal and vertical sync pulses and using combinational logic to shape up a C-Sync signal. Probably XORing and inverting, or something to that effect. But why? If you're doing this in the analog space, there's virtually no benefit in doing that. The same wonky patterns in the C-Sync output exist in the horizontal and vertical pins. You're just making more work for yourself than you need to, and run the risk of mucking up the pulses if not done absolutely precisely.

Buffer C-sync by a 6dB gain factor (THS7374), attenuate it, and then ac couple it to remove that odd 1vPP DC offset. I bet it will work much better and be a hella less headache for you guys.

I would let the C-Sync live between 330mV and 900mV. Some equipment may have trouble triggering off of it depending where it "tries" to slice it. So 330mV is where I'd put it @ minimum.





Glad to help.
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Last edited by Voultar on Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:36 pm 



Joined: 17 Jan 2018
Posts: 1
Just registered on this board specifically to say neoDev (Alex + others), thank you for continuing to try to work with everyone here in order to find a solution, despite the rudeness of certain members. I have an order in for the Super SD System (ordered on the second day of sales, so maybe shipping soon too!), and am very excited about the product.

As someone with a Genesis 2 CSYNC cable, I’m sad to hear about all the issues, but I’m looking forward to hearing the best course of action and hope you continue to post her until something can be figured out.

Thanks again, and don’t let a rude/unruly poster get on your nerves.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:36 pm 



Joined: 17 Jun 2016
Posts: 96
Neodev wrote:
tusecsy wrote:
It didn't work there, you're either lying or ignorant or both. Csync does not work with your device, that's obvious.



My i ask why you are doing this ?
are you getting payed to do that ?
why are you acting this way ?
do you insult others in your daily basics ? do this works for you ? is your life better acting this way ? do others like to talk with yout ?

I mean, i can´t see the advantages about acting like this, so i would like to understand why you are doing that.

Thanks


Yet another post that completely ignores that you were told for the last month how to fix your product. Google translate "ad hominem" for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:37 pm 



Joined: 17 Jun 2016
Posts: 96
retrorgb wrote:
Neodev wrote:
I know your message was positive, i was trying to state that we listened you and others before take the final decision about SSDS3 rgb issue before launch ... This was the goal of my answer

Maybe we're just misunderstanding each other. Sorry!

@tusecsy - Almost every post from you is rude and useless. How about going back to the kids table while the adults talk?


You tried to talk nicely and rationally with these guys a month ago, how'd that work out? They ignored you and are shipping a broken product as a result. I'm speaking the only language these NG.com fools understand, and you'll notice it's working...

Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:42 pm 


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Posts: 653
donluca wrote:
Shmups is one of the most cool places I've been.


It is indeed, my favorite forum.

donluca wrote:
(the hot glue thing of that modder who still comes up from time to time)


Ah, the Drakon/hot glue bukkake debacle. Dead horse beating at it's finest.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:43 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 392
tusecsy wrote:
You tried to talk nicely and rationally with these guys a month ago, how'd that work out? They ignored you and are shipping a broken product as a result. I'm speaking the only language these NG.com fools understand, and you'll notice it's working...

Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

No one ignored me, the conversation was taken offline.

Nothing's "working", neodev was going to fix this with or without your rude comments. This is the last time I respond to you. I'm not wasting another second on your bullshit.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:45 pm 


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Joined: 09 Aug 2017
Posts: 831
Location: Australia
Voultar wrote:
Neodev wrote:





We are 6 and as far as i know we tried the csync cable and it worked here. Obviously not everyone works on the same product/area
We are trying to determine why it worked here, this is what i been told today.

Thanks


I have a question,

As I understand it (I think); You are taking horizontal and vertical sync pulses and using combinational logic to shape up a C-Sync signal. Probably XORing and inverting, or something to that effect. But why? If you're doing this in the analog space, there's virtually no benefit in doing that. The same wonky patterns in the C-Sync output exist in the horizontal and vertical pins. You're just making more work for yourself than you need to, and run the risk of mucking up the pulses if not done absolutely precisely.

Buffer C-sync by a 6dB gain factor (THS7374), attenuate it, and then ac couple it to remove that odd 1vPP DC offset. I bet it will work much better and be a hella less headache for you guys.

I would let the C-Sync live between 330mV and 900mV. Some equipment may have trouble triggering off of it depending where it "tries" to slice it. So 330mV is where I'd put it @ minimum.





Glad to help.


It my understanding that the missing slope/edge in csync is not present/fixed when you layer h and v.

Theres posts somewhere showing the scope but i think you are wrong saying the wonkyness is present both sides


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:46 pm 


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Joined: 10 Jan 2014
Posts: 516
Location: USA
Syntax wrote:
Voultar wrote:
Neodev wrote:





We are 6 and as far as i know we tried the csync cable and it worked here. Obviously not everyone works on the same product/area
We are trying to determine why it worked here, this is what i been told today.

Thanks


I have a question,

As I understand it (I think); You are taking horizontal and vertical sync pulses and using combinational logic to shape up a C-Sync signal. Probably XORing and inverting, or something to that effect. But why? If you're doing this in the analog space, there's virtually no benefit in doing that. The same wonky patterns in the C-Sync output exist in the horizontal and vertical pins. You're just making more work for yourself than you need to, and run the risk of mucking up the pulses if not done absolutely precisely.

Buffer C-sync by a 6dB gain factor (THS7374), attenuate it, and then ac couple it to remove that odd 1vPP DC offset. I bet it will work much better and be a hella less headache for you guys.

I would let the C-Sync live between 330mV and 900mV. Some equipment may have trouble triggering off of it depending where it "tries" to slice it. So 330mV is where I'd put it @ minimum.





Glad to help.


It my understanding that the missing slope/edge in csync is not present/fixed when you layer h and v.

Theres posts somewhere showing the scope but i think you are wrong saying the wonkyness is present both sides


Okay, can you show me the data?
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:47 pm 



Joined: 17 Jun 2016
Posts: 96
retrorgb wrote:
tusecsy wrote:
You tried to talk nicely and rationally with these guys a month ago, how'd that work out? They ignored you and are shipping a broken product as a result. I'm speaking the only language these NG.com fools understand, and you'll notice it's working...

Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

No one ignored me, the conversation was taken offline.

Nothing's "working", neodev was going to fix this with or without your rude comments. This is the last time I respond to you. I'm not wasting another second on your bullshit.


They were? All I heard until I got involved was talk of it being a cable problem... Don't take your anger at ROT out on me man, maybe it's time to start on your daily 12 pack?

But yes, my work is done here. Either their ego is insulted enough to do what voultar and crew are telling them to, or it's a lost cause and we have to wait for someone like Darksoft to make a product that actually works.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:51 pm 


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Joined: 20 Jul 2017
Posts: 236
edit: ignore me


Last edited by Kez on Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:52 pm 


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Joined: 09 Aug 2017
Posts: 831
Location: Australia
viewtopic.php?t=58950

Tim has more info on the matter, hes scoped it.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:59 pm 


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Joined: 10 Jan 2014
Posts: 516
Location: USA
Syntax wrote:
Voultar wrote:
Neodev wrote:





We are 6 and as far as i know we tried the csync cable and it worked here. Obviously not everyone works on the same product/area
We are trying to determine why it worked here, this is what i been told today.

Thanks


I have a question,

As I understand it (I think); You are taking horizontal and vertical sync pulses and using combinational logic to shape up a C-Sync signal. Probably XORing and inverting, or something to that effect. But why? If you're doing this in the analog space, there's virtually no benefit in doing that. The same wonky patterns in the C-Sync output exist in the horizontal and vertical pins. You're just making more work for yourself than you need to, and run the risk of mucking up the pulses if not done absolutely precisely.

Buffer C-sync by a 6dB gain factor (THS7374), attenuate it, and then ac couple it to remove that odd 1vPP DC offset. I bet it will work much better and be a hella less headache for you guys.

I would let the C-Sync live between 330mV and 900mV. Some equipment may have trouble triggering off of it depending where it "tries" to slice it. So 330mV is where I'd put it @ minimum.





Glad to help.


It my understanding that the missing slope/edge in csync is not present/fixed when you layer h and v.

Theres posts somewhere showing the scope but i think you are wrong saying the wonkyness is present both sides



Between a few of us, we've gathered quite a bit of data on the PC-E doing various analysis'. Ste of HD-Retrovision captured these two.

The cursors are positioned where the falling edges should be.

Image

Green is normal, the red is the PC-E

Image

The PC-E's sync is out of spec regardless of how you slice it. If H/V aren't out of time, then I suppose this problem is just a glitch in how they combine H/V in the 6260.
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Last edited by Voultar on Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:02 am 


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Joined: 09 Aug 2017
Posts: 831
Location: Australia
You show csync and composite video.

Show me h and v layered.

After some reading on my lunch break you may be correct sorry.
Seems the wide pulses are present in the seperate h v.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:12 am 


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Joined: 10 Jan 2014
Posts: 516
Location: USA
Syntax wrote:
You show csync and composite video.

Show me h and v layered.

After some reading on my lunch break you may be correct sorry.
Seems the wide pulses are present in the seperate h v.



That's right. They're just asynchronous or out of time, just as C-Sync is.

Just use C-Sync.

Nonetheless, I can guarantee you that whatever problems people are having with C-Sync haven't anything to do with the PC-E's out of spec sync. I'd still drop the combining circuit and let the 6260 do the work.

I've read some back and forth on 'going too bright isn't a big deal and it's just video purist's bitching' - This is fucking ridiculous. If you saturate your video, it's fucking saturated. It's clipped and you can't go back and recover that video content which is the total opposite of going too dark.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:44 am 



Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 93
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
we all know this but some people just won't listen


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:48 am 



Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Posts: 65
If it helps anyone, I was having issues using my Super SD System 3 with my OSSC, couldn't get it to sync up. I had to raise both the Analog Sync Vth to 101mV or higher and the Vsync Threshold to 11.38 or higher and now it works flawless. I'm using an older Retro Access MD2 cable wich I think is using csync (was called raw sync at the time) with the proper caps.

Now if only I could get the in-game trigger to work.


Last edited by chadti99 on Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:51 am 



Joined: 12 Aug 2017
Posts: 261
Neodev wrote:
Why are we having this "issue" ? mostly cause we are euro guys and our equipment is really different than the one you usa guys are used to have/work with.

So, what are we going to do ? listen, and think.

My own opinion about this is : the ones that have such equipment, should have no issue while doing custom cables to get the "issue" solved. Pcengines lack of rgb output, so the ones having such equipment had to mod theyr consoles and this is far much more than make a cable.

Lets put things on the table, this is an issue that gets fixed with a 8usd cable (correct me if i am wrong), not the end of the world, or something to start a drama from it.

Just relativize things. We all know the issue as today, you guys know much more than us about the custom video hardware you are using. Lets find a solution.


This statement makes no sense to me.

You sold a device claiming to be compatible with MD2 cables and outputting csync. First you mistakenly put the RGB line resistors and caps into your device, until people here explained that they are present in any on-spec MD2 cable and should be removed. Then you forgot to account for the 0.8vpp video levels of the PC Engine until people here explained how to attenuate the signal within the limitations of your design. Now it seems your csync output isn't working as it should.

All of these problems could've been easily detected by simple measurements and basic tests. If you had hooked up a scope to the RGB outputs of your device and/or the PC engine or just looked at the test screens of the 240p test suite you would've instantly seen that something was off spec and not correct. Thankfully people here pointed out these problems and their solutions before the device was shipped. If you had just tested your device with the widely used and often recommended cables of a trusted seller and hooked it up to the most widely used devices for using old consoles with modern TVs you would've noticed that csync issue as well.

So please don't insult our intelligence by claiming this is "cause we are euro guys and our equipment is really different" or a problem with our "custom video hardware" and that if we're so smart we should figure this out ourselves. This is a problem with your design & testing. That's your job.

I understand that people make mistakes and that you're a small team, but this attitude of "it's just a cable" and "there's no perfect solution" and "nobody can even notice a bit of white crush" etc. really irks me. If you made a mistake, admit to it and don't blame it on literally everything else.

And I'd very much like to correct you on the 8$ cable thing. Haven't you learned from your own cable issues? If you buy cheap random cables you get what you pay for, a poorly shielded one that may or may not have the required components in them, probably using some artifact prone sync type bleeding into audio & RGB. The shielded MD2 cables from RGC cost ~38$, and from my experience they frequently make a worthwhile difference over the basic ones (which are still far more than 8$).


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:59 am 


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Be nice to them till they release a v2 and i have one please. :p


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:03 am 



Joined: 28 Nov 2013
Posts: 93
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Here we are thinking about hardware solutions while this product is being shipped as we speak.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:04 am 


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Posts: 987
Location: Southern California
chadti99 wrote:
If it helps anyone, I was having issues using my Super SD System 3 with my OSSC, couldn't get it to sync up. I had to raise both the Analog Sync Vth to 101mV or higher and the Vsync Threshold to 11.38 or higher and now it works flawless. I'm using an older Retro Access MD2 cable wich I think is using csync (was called raw sync at the time) with the proper caps.

Now if only I could get the in-game trigger to work.


Thank you for this post. The last 2 pages in this thread is so thick with the toxicity that it's hard to manage the useful information.

I'm planning on using my OSSC primarily, till I can find room in my apartment to set-up my BVM that's sitting in storage. This is good news that I can set the OSSC for now till a better solution/fix comes along.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:04 am 



Joined: 12 Aug 2017
Posts: 261
chadti99 wrote:
Now if only I could get the in-game trigger to work.


You have to turn it on in the options menu and hold SELECT+RUN for ~3-5sec. I disabled it, though. It breaks some games (Galaga) and fails in others. Soft-reset features frequently seem buggy. The one in OPL for PS2 or the GDmenu one on DC never worked well for me and caused various glitches.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:08 am 



Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Posts: 65
ASDR wrote:
chadti99 wrote:
Now if only I could get the in-game trigger to work.


You have to turn it on in the options menu and hold SELECT+RUN for ~3-5sec. I disabled it, though. It breaks some games (Galaga) and fails in others. Soft-reset features frequently seem buggy. The one in OPL for PS2 or the GDmenu one on DC never worked well for me and caused various glitches.


I have it enabled as I get the warning message and the box is checked. I've tried it in a few dozen games, holding SELECT+RUN for several seconds, during gameplay, and nothing happens. Which games have you tried it in?


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:12 am 



Joined: 12 Aug 2017
Posts: 261
chadti99 wrote:
ASDR wrote:
chadti99 wrote:
Now if only I could get the in-game trigger to work.


You have to turn it on in the options menu and hold SELECT+RUN for ~3-5sec. I disabled it, though. It breaks some games (Galaga) and fails in others. Soft-reset features frequently seem buggy. The one in OPL for PS2 or the GDmenu one on DC never worked well for me and caused various glitches.


I have it enabled as I get the warning message and the box is checked. I've tried it in a few dozen games, holding SELECT+RUN for several seconds, during gameplay, and nothing happens. Which games have you tried it in?


I honestly don't remember any names, but I tried like 30+ games, most working, a handful failed to reset and 2 didn't run correctly. Mostly HuCard games since I can't use the CD part for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:27 am 



Joined: 27 Jul 2012
Posts: 86
I would leave the In game trigger disabled as it might not always be obvious when a problem will occur.

Example: I found an issue with Ys 3 US version. Boot the game up but don't touch anything. It will play through the intro and then go to the Beginning/Continue screen. After a couple seconds the game will lock up.

Looks like this:

Image


You have no choice but to power the unit off and back on.


However if you skip the intro and go straight to the Beginning/Continue screen, this doesn't happen and everything seems ok.

Disable the in-game trigger and everything is fine.
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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:42 am 


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Neodev wrote:
We are a 6 members team, and all our efforst are on the engineering side.
We are developing 4 products right now.


PLEASE let one be a Sega/Mega CD solution for loading games from a SD card :)

As for 'cablegate', I always intended to make my own RGB RCA breakout box. Though I do absolutely require csync since all my systems go through a Extron Crosspoint switch which requires csync. As long as I know what capacitors or resistors I need on the csync output from the Super SD System 3 then I'll be fine. Modifying the add-on itself would be fine for me too as long as I can do it without making it ugly (don't really want to make a mess of wires in it since it's transparent :P).


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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:44 am 



Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Posts: 65
broken wrote:
I would leave the In game trigger disabled as it might not always be obvious when a problem will occur.

Example: I found an issue with Ys 3 US version. Boot the game up but don't touch anything. It will play through the intro and then go to the Beginning/Continue screen. After a couple seconds the game will lock up.

Looks like this:

Image


You have no choice but to power the unit off and back on.


However if you skip the intro and go straight to the Beginning/Continue screen, this doesn't happen and everything seems ok.

Disable the in-game trigger and everything is fine.


Wierd, I just fired up Ys 3 and I'm not seeing this issue. I def have the in-game trigger enabled according to the menu option screen.


Last edited by chadti99 on Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Super SD System 3
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:48 am 



Joined: 27 Jul 2012
Posts: 86
chadti99 wrote:
So wierd, I just fired up Ys 3 and I'm not seeing this issue. I def have the in-game trigger enabled according to the menu option screen.



And you let it play all the way through the intro sequence without skipping it?

US version of the game?
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