Sangoku Justice - CAVE [Strategy Game/ iOS & Android]

[Bananamatic]

Yeah /shmupg/ is so much better. It's more like /shmupol/ though, but lots of people will be more comfortable in that environment.

I'm not even talking about /shmupg/, that's about as worthless for discussion as this place, only with the /pol/ slider set further right

[Xyga]

The shmupg mention was supposed to be sarcastic, I think here is still a better place overall. But I mean in your case if you think the farm is shit too for talking shmups why do you still visit?
Again there aren't enough new games anyway so unless everyone's still playing the same old ones over and over for scoar, it is unevitable that this community will lose it's vitality and therefore its interest to some like you, I'm sure you have more enriching discussions with other still-active players elsewhere and that's good.
Personally I'm satisfied with hardware, general retro/games, movies discussions n' shit since I haven't been playing shmups any seriously at all for years (life+procrastination=0motivation), and I've seen worse retirement homes/farms.

[Bananamatic]

But I mean in your case if you think the farm is shit too for talking shmups why do you still visit?

to destroy the cult of pcb fetishism, why else

Again there aren't enough new games anyway so unless everyone's still playing the same old ones over and over for scoar, it is unevitable that this community will lose it's vitality and therefore its interest to some like you

I thought that the appeal of shmups was playing them over and over and that reviewers writing they're too short are wrong
turns out that people don't really enjoy the games to their full potential and it's the same fuck and chuck deal as other genres

same as AAA shit, pre-release hype->game comes out->come to the conclusion that it's meh and stop playing it after a week->wait for the next release
except the next release doesn't come for a year and it's some anime doujin so all discussion comes down to hating anime and not getting enough shmup releases because releasing a commercial shmup these days is equivalent to burning money and all the doujin devs are weebs

[Xyga]

Playing them over and over is fine but you can't expect everyone to have the same goals (and free time), for many just a 1ALL is gratifying-enough and after that even if they try scoring a bit but the game obviously requires a fucking lot more time and dedication for doing it right, it'll get old fast, and they'd obviously rather play a fresh new game rather than be discouraged challenging a game tens-to-hundred of hours for pitiful results.
It's always been reality for a large portion of the shmups demographics and I don't see any problem with that, it might not get near squeezing the pure essence of many games but it's still quite far from the credit-feeding mentality.
And not every game is pleasant to learn for score anyway. When the scoring itself is damn fun/addictive I'm okay, when it's not but I need it for devices like winning extends for instance I'm okay, but if it's only to beat X or Y's high score at a painfully hard game somewhere then I can't find any fucks to give.
I don't see the point of forcing oneself to play games like mad if there's no fun, unless there's a solid passionate basis for getting over the rage and disgust of course, but that will only ever be the mindset of a minority.

[qmish]

yeah this forum makes me think sometimes that shmup community is 90% of people who were born in certain times so they witnessed genre in its full glory

people still play shmups actively (if not way more than what you consider "full glory", not to mention the overall skill/knowledge level is way higher), it's just that this forum is utter dogshit for discussing shmups so they don't bother posting here
unless you enjoy shitposting because the moderation is nonexistent

What i meant, it looks like shmup genre would die when all those currently 30+ and 40+ yo guys would disappear. Because most 20+ and teens would only play Undertale, it looks like that. And children would play euroshmups on smartphones if they go to top of appstore.

Again there aren't enough new games anyway so unless everyone's still playing the same old ones over and over for scoar, it is unevitable that this community will lose it's vitality

I was more about bringing new players to old games than old players to new games.

people don't really enjoy the games to their full potential

At least people still milk classic doom and classic x-com ufo defense.

[Cee]

Wtf is "good shmup discussion" anyway? what on earth does anyone really believe is left to say about these games that hasn't been said a million times already? This is why people need to just play games they enjoy and have other interests to discuss and forget about "muh shump quality talk" or whatever this odd expectation of occupying internet houses seems to be.

[BIL]

Oh lawd it's all so depressing. This thread has dealt the killing blow to my weary sould. D:

Howma supposed to eat all these drugs and 2-all my shumps and make alimony for my greedy cunt of an ex-wife x_x

SHEEEEEEIT NIGGA x_x

I'm going to break into a substation and chow down on the biggest cable I can see, hopefully blowing the roof of my fucking skull off. Could one of you PM me for my account details? future generations need to know how to clear stage 6 of gunsmoke, and I don't mean the wimpy NES version.

[Xyga]

I was more about bringing new players to old games than old players to new games.

We'll only ever bring so much to play them, that is; only a handful of newbs every year, and I'm not sure serving the unilateral narrative that shmups are games to play to the extreme will help at all.
It is considerably more efficient and vital for the genre's survival to have new games released regularly to renew the life/interest, how serious or not the majority end up playing the games doesn't really matter.

To get back on topic: whether one likes Cave's shmups or not, them quitting arcade shmups development has been a dramatic/final blow to all shmuppers regardless in regards to the industry's vitality.
I remember looking at the changes with a bit of surprise, on the one hand it was obvious that the genre had just become orphaned and it was only a matter of time before the tumbleweeds, on the other hand a number of people - including total newcomers - were further radicalizing into superplaying and making videos/events etc.
Also in parallel Touhou grew more massive while remaining somewhat separate to the old, 'mainstream' arcade shmups world.
The superplaying/scoring/streaming demographics might be satisfied living still for years on the same aging pool of games, and Touhou fans will always be self-sufficient as long as Zun releases a new title once in a while...but for everyone else who enjoyed shmups simply as a video games genre, for the whole thing, it is indeed a long funeral.

@BIL; sorry for the gloom

Spoiler

[Bananamatic]

Wtf is "good shmup discussion" anyway? what on earth does anyone really believe is left to say about these games that hasn't been said a million times already?

for example how the fuck you're meant to get 700m in dodonpachi with ships that aren't A-L or C-S
there's plenty of stuff that isn't public knowledge or even discovered yet
sadly that requires people to actually play the games instead of arguing if you're a pedophile for playing anime shmups or not

whether one likes Cave's shmups or not, them quitting arcade shmups development has been a dramatic/final blow to all shmuppers regardless in regards to the industry's vitality

how so?
they released plenty of shmups worth playing ages ago and their output starting from mushihimesama kinda went to shit with issues all over the place anyways
less "dramatic" and more "thank god, now let someone who can actually make good ports (m2) do them"
you have a ton of titles worth playing from different devs, not to mention all the doujin stuff that's still coming out
the only final blow to someone who plays shmups would be losing your arms, turning into a vegetable unable to play them or dying

[Xyga]

their output starting from mushihimesama kinda went to shit with issues all over the place anyways

You're either joking or we're not talking about the same thing, during the nearly-decade of their 'cv1k era' they were the industry leaders of bona fide arcade STGs and who gives a crap about the issues, all shmups or shmups related communities were all over their games for that period in time.
We were always joking about newbs coming with 'just registered because I love Ikaruga' then it was the 'hardest video game boss ever' video and I rather see Mushi as one of the titles that helped rebuild an interest in the genre and attract new players.

how so?

If you've missed that during that time they've been by far the most important contributors to maintaining the genre's popularity - which is crucial to developers and publishers thinking about making and selling shmups whether it's for the arcades or consoles, and even doujin/indie makers for having a clear vision of the trends - well, I can't send you back in time to witness it again anyway so what can I say?

less "dramatic" and more "thank god, now let someone who can actually make good ports (m2) do them"

Again I'm not talking about ports but new fresh games, M2 are nice but what have they created so far?
Okay several Cave games received bad to average ports but even those were still wildly popular. At the time we only had PS2's did we actually refrain from buying and playing Mushi and Ibara because they looked like shit? And who hasn't purchased every port he could on the 360 despite the complaints? In the end it's still an incredible lineup.

you have a ton of titles worth playing from different devs, not to mention all the doujin stuff that's still coming out

That's not the same and not enough, when Cave were still active - again whether you liked their games or not - they were the last ones holding the flag of genuine japanese manic/BH arcade shmups high-enough to be seen by everyone, that was a more potent motivator for anyone, market actors and gamers alike, than the doujin scene or the western production could ever manage to produce (with the exception of Touhou maybe that built its reputation almost entirely by itself without so much influence from cave).
Do you see a comparable activity, production and enthusiasm today as during the 2000's? (which was already low compared to the 90's golden era ok but there was still enough material) Cave, MileStone, G.Rev, Qute, Triangle, how many still exist and make new actual shmups? Oh yeah we've had Raiden V from Moss...and Aka to Blue half the people can't play with their shitty phone.
Doujin-wise what actually made it to the headlines lately or in the last I-don't-know-how-many-months-if-years besides Touhou 16 if we can still call 2hu 'doujin'?
West-side there's Pawarumi...and? Oh yes Blue Revolver was not soooo long ago I give you that but..
I mean look at the years of release table here, it's not complete sure but I know they still make an effort to maintain it so it still reasonably reflects reality;
http://translate.google.fr/translate?sl ... t=&act=url
Might not look dead to you but to me it does. The last times I felt the genre wasn't completely dead were the Stunfest 2013 and the release of CC:WI

the only final blow to someone who plays shmups would be losing your arms, turning into a vegetable unable to play them or dying

Okay. Personally the end for me is realizing there won't be anything new of envergure likely to rekindle my shmupper fire. And no, competing score of the same games forever with a circle of people chatting around video streams does not interest me. Maybe i'm too old but the buy, play, discuss on forums formula was good enough for me, now obviously it can't work without fresh games. Honestly the degree of in-depht gametalk you mention was always there and for a long time, but there's much less of it today, naturally.

[Cee]

for example how the fuck you're meant to get 700m in dodonpachi with ships that aren't A-L or C-S
there's plenty of stuff that isn't public knowledge or even discovered yet

There's literally just a handful of players who can answer that question currently so unless they are here it's a pointless discussion and you'll be closer to figuring it out alone than with a speculation shoot out or at least lead the discussion yourself ie make a thread explaining the goal and garner interest for save state shitters and tas type to go about figuring it out.

instead of arguing if you're a pedophile for playing anime shmups or not

Yeah... but are you though?

[Bananamatic]

their output starting from mushihimesama kinda went to shit with issues all over the place anyways

You're either joking or we're not talking about the same thing, during the nearly-decade of their 'cv1k era' they were the industry leaders of bona fide arcade STGs and who gives a crap about the issues, all shmups or shmups related communities were all over their games for that period in time.
We were always joking about newbs coming with 'just registered because I love Ikaruga' then it was the 'hardest video game boss ever' video and I rather see Mushi as one of the titles that helped rebuild an interest in the genre and attract new players.

cv1k era was where the slowdown got out of hand to the point of continuously turning on/off, mushi had ridiculous scoring that required a super custom autofire setup on maniac/ultra, pink sweets pcb even crashes and has an infinite lives glitch that got never fixed, futari and dfk took 1 revision to make them playable in the first place, deathsmiles 2 was a bluescreening failure (the boss designs were hilarious though), no one gave a shit about arcade akai katana, MMP was an unbalanced mess with out of control boss milking and ridiculous loop requirements, saidaioujou had a blatant overflow that somehow didn't get detected and never fixed and the scoring system was beyond unbalanced
nothing from that time gets even close to dodonpachi, daioujou or ketsui, galuda 2 was probably their best designed game from back then

if you actually read the cave interviews at shmuplations, you could easily tell that most of the games during that era were made on a retarded deadline sometimes by just 1 programmer (futari BL was made in a month)
meanwhile most of the people working on sdoj weren't smart enough to realize that a scoring system that revolves around cancels can't have bullet cancelling enemies in only 2 stages out of 5 (at least we hired big name VAs for most of the budget)

fuck cave, glad it's dead, any half decent doujin team or even 1 person can make a better game when they're not limited by retarded underpowered hardware where the game barely fits in the memory and ridiculous deadlines and when the devs actually play the games themselves, just look at battle traverse or crimzon clover where it's done by people who actually know what a good shmup should be, not by shinobu "sdoj is too hard" yagawa
the only thing they really had going for them towards the end was the visual design and incredible music
even blue revolver was a more coherent shmup than most of cave's late output and it was made in some ez2use 2d game framework as their first shmup ever

There's literally just a handful of players who can answer that question currently so unless they are here it's a pointless discussion and you'll be closer to figuring it out alone than with a speculation shoot out or at least lead the discussion yourself ie make a thread explaining the goal and garner interest for save state shitters and tas type to go about figuring it out.

it got moved elsewhere because only 3 people are really interested in it and all the discussion can be done in real time
there's no point in writing long paragraphs here when no one even plays the game in the first place and anyone interested can follow it elsewhere

Yeah... but are you though?

nah, lolis are shit
I'd rather have planes even in battle traverse but I can handle some anime if the game is actually good

[brokenhalo]

I don't feel like spending an hour multi-quoting.

1. Mushi scoring doesn't "require" custom auto-fire circuits, but if you want to score at a WR clip, you definitely want those buttons available. The ports actually allow you to set up the custom auto-fire buttons, so not really a big deal anyway. Unless you're a pcb fetishist .
2. Pink Sweets infinite lives glitch was patched out. But then was patched back in. It's complicated. But players seem to prefer the game with the glitch left in, so *shrugs*.
3. Cave didn't have infinite amounts of money and were on deaths door for a long time before SDOJ, so it's natural that the later games would be rushed. Some issues got fixed, some didn't. I'm sure if they had the resources, they would have loved to polish them up. Or properly QA them to avoid some of the major issues in the first place.
4. You've got quite a few people here who have played Dodonpachi over the years, and only 4 of them have managed to crack 400 million. Sadly, there just isn't much discussion to be had on how to break 700 million. You could probably fit the people worldwide who are qualified to talk about it in a phone-booth. Congrats on the 586 million though, and good luck progressing further.

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

2. Pink Sweets infinite lives glitch was patched out. But then was patched back in. It's complicated.

That's not correct. That's based on someone saying the XX version(s) are the newest versions. The opposite is true. The bug was rumored to be fixed in the May version but it's not dumped and I don't know anyone who owns it.

[Xyga]

@Banana; I don't deny the issues of course, but do you aknowledge their influence on the people and market or not? or have you been alone in this world with their games only for you to appreciate?

I know it's really customary for many of the most involved players to deny any sense in the enthusiasm of the pleb majority for a particular dev or game who doesn't really deserve universal praise, but not everyone is the same player as you, most will not play the games with the goal of reaching the same heights, so they're good enough for most.

Of course you can reject it. But the world of games, of shmups, doesn't revolve around a handful of 'elite' (lol) players. They're not just for you.
Do you get that?

You can celebrate the disapperance of Cave and ignore the genre's market is dead by quoting the handful of decent games we've had in years like that's enough and everything is well in the world of shmups.
My point is that if Cave were still active shmups devs, they might be making more broken and rushed arcade shmups, yes, but their continued presence whould have been a positive, useful, that would have made the plebs happy, sent positive market vibes to other now defunct devs, and you're not forced to buy and play their games yourself anyway so why would you have cared?

[Shepardus]

I gotta agree with Cee, I don't think there's really much you can "discuss" about shmups beyond basic mechanics, that isn't demonstrated better by a video. These aren't super deep games like chess or go or even NetHack, where there are so many possibilities that it's often uncertain what the best move is, and people are still coming up with novel ways of playing. In shmups it's usually pretty clear cut what works and what doesn't, and most of the variation comes down to execution or flat-out RNG, neither of which make for very interesting discussion. The "highest scoring replays" thread has pretty much all the resources you need for (arcade) shmups, and if it's not there you're unlikely to find it from sitting around and discussing it with other people who also don't know. Good info does occasionally surface here, but more often than not it takes the form of a one-way knowledge dump than anything resembling a "discussion."

If there are shmup discussions worth having, they're in the Development subforum talking about the design of shmups, but it doesn't seem like there's much interest in that on this forum, at least compared to the discussions on /r/roguelikedev about roguelike dev.

[Mantrox]

The offtopic has gone way overboard.
Please lock this thread.

[Shepardus]

Oh yeah, please do move this thread to off-topic. This game is almost certainly not a shmup.

[Goompaolo9500]

The offtopic has gone way overboard.
Please lock this thread.

Not even close.

Even if this thread is on off-topic, I noticed there are more updates of his upcoming games.The platform is definitely for iOS.
https://www.cave.co.jp/jp/5205/

Robot Design might make you have a clue.
https://3jus.jp/special3

[Goompaolo9500]

We cannot lock this thread yet, though. We still need to check on www.cave.co.jp for more updates.

[Sumez]

What? Are you still holding on to this possibly being a shmup?

[qmish]

No, but still wanna see actual gameplay of whatever this would be

[Stevens]

This thread would be better if it were this one:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=52305

[Plasmo]

Will there be any dicks in Sangoku Justice? I want to play a really manly game on my really manly mobile thingy.

[Squire Grooktook]

I thought that the appeal of shmups was playing them over and over and that reviewers writing they're too short are wrong
turns out that people don't really enjoy the games to their full potential and it's the same fuck and chuck deal as other genres

same as AAA shit, pre-release hype->game comes out->come to the conclusion that it's meh and stop playing it after a week->wait for the next release

Banana, you're a great player and you've made some marvelous shit-posts, but you have no idea what you're talking about here and your superplayer tunnel vision has caused you to completely fail to understand the many other ways that people enjoy shmups and enjoy games in general.

Xyga addressed most of it already, but I will just add on that "not playing the game to its full potential" does not in any way preclude replay value, excitement, enjoyment, or in anyway cherishing and valuing the game. The best gaming thread and discussion on the entire internet revolves entirely around games that have virtually no scoring mechanics, and we all still enjoy replaying and discussing them regularly after clearing.

Playing them over and over is fine but you can't expect everyone to have the same goals (and free time),

I no longer have much freetime for playing video games at all these days. And I suspect many other people here have it much, much worse.

On friday, if I work hard, I can play for maybe an hour or so before I go to bed.
On saturday, I play a table top rpg with friends for 5 hours (I'm not dropping this even if it kills me, it's been one of the greatest gaming / entertainment experiences of my life). If I got shit done for the rest of the week, maybe I can squeeze another hour of video games in before bed.

That is the full extent of my free-time each week. I don't read manga or animoo or any other shit either.

Every other waking hour is devoted to either college, or game development. 5-7 hours a week is all I can spare, and that's on a particularly good week (which is getting more and more rare). Despite all that, I still play my favorite stg and genuinely enjoy them (even if I don't discuss them a ton - surprise surprise - I don't have much time for forums either), and I don't need a snobby lecture about how nobody is enjoying these games "to their full potential" and it's badwrongfun and we should all ditch our own playstyles and hobbies and become superplayers instead.

[BIL]

Xyga addressed most of it already, but I will just add on that "not playing the game to its full potential" does not in any way preclude replay value, excitement, or enjoyment. The best gaming thread and discussion on the entire internet revolves entirely around games that have virtually no scoring mechanics, and that we all still enjoy replaying and discussing them regularly after clearing.

To Banana's advocate slightly though, I think modern score-centric STGs by their stripped-down nature (automated scrolling; free movement often totally unrestricted by terrain; interaction with game elements typically restricted to shooting and killing) naturally lose some of the grey area in which discussions like this can flourish. All we're talking about there is hopping a pit without getting dunked, but that's already more extraneous interaction than you'll see in a typical 90s-present STG.

Not meant to be a knock on STGs - that extreme focus on performance and results is something I value a lot. Wouldn't want badger attacks and sinkholes on my golf course or racetrack, either.

[Squire Grooktook]

Of course! Each game tends to be different in terms of handling, so there's always something to note when simply describing its base mechanics.

Still, the "not a super player? chuck-and-fuck AAA casual hue might as well sell your game it has no value" is complete nonsense. You can still cherish and enjoy a game even when you don't have time to fully explore everything it can offer, and you can still cherish and enjoy a game even when you've done everything there is to do. Perhaps not everyone can personally feel that way (and I wouldn't expect everyone to), but a refusal to acknowledge that people can enjoy these games with different priorities and goals is very close-minded IMO.

Also forgive me: I'm on the last leg of the semester. Grumpy and hair-trigger as fuck.

[BIL]

Still, the "not a super player? chuck-and-fuck AAA casual hue might as well sell your game it has no value" is complete nonsense. You can still cherish and enjoy a game even when you don't have time to fully explore everything it can offer, and you can still cherish and enjoy a game even when you've done everything there is to do. Perhaps not everyone can personally feel that way (and I wouldn't expect everyone to), but a refusal to acknowledge that people can enjoy these games with different priorities and goals is very close-minded IMO.

Agreed - I like knowing the real lunatics are out there (provided they're not going Full Pup), but I prefer to go by the Book of Rob eg "competence is what I aim for." ;3

[Sumez]

Please keep the talk to Sengoku Justice lol just kidding

[BIL]

I forgot it was even a game lmao

Thought it was a Sengoku Ace hgame spinoff where Koyori uses her shinto powers and BIG ASIAN TITS ( ) to bring justice to the frontier mining town on TERRAFORMING COLONY LESBOS VII