Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 PCB vs "Shitty" Version BL PCB

[djsheep]

Question… I own a Japanese Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 kit and was wondering if it's a upgrade or downgrade to get the Black Label "Another Version" kit? I'd love to have "God Mode" but from what I understand the "International / Another / Shitty" version fucks with the difficulty? So, what's the forum consensus on this?

Thanks!

[waiwainl]

I like the AV just fine, difficult enough
Don't have the Jap version to compare.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[_rm_]

I've played the Another Version a couple months ago for the first time. In terms of difficulty i find it very similar to the "regular" BL, only the bosses are easier.

The 1.5 version, it's obvioulsy MUCH harder, a different kind of beast if you're going for the 1CC. The BL is known to be one of the easy Cave 1CC's.

[CloudyMusic]

I don't think anyone's ever demonstrated a difference in God Mode on the Another Version PCB. I think it might just be Original and Maniac that are affected.

[Despatche]

There's no point in even recognizing that Another Version is a thing. It actually has no worth, there's no reason for it to exist.

[waiwainl]

There's no point in even recognizing that Another Version is a thing. It actually has no worth, there's no reason for it to exist.

Could you eleborate why? Currently your statement is somewhat empty.

[Shepardus]

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46235

From what I hear God Mode is unchanged.

[Bananamatic]

all pcbs are the shitty version
the port is just better

[CloudyMusic]

There's no point in even recognizing that Another Version is a thing. It actually has no worth, there's no reason for it to exist.

Aside from the people who own the PCB, play it, and have already posted scores here for it?

Yeah, sure, aside all from that, there's no point.

[Bananamatic]

you can sell it for more than you bought it to some sucker
that's about the only use

[brokenhalo]

Question… I own a Japanese Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 kit and was wondering if it's a upgrade or downgrade to get the Black Label "Another Version" kit? I'd love to have "God Mode" but from what I understand the "International / Another / Shitty" version fucks with the difficulty? So, what's the forum consensus on this?

Thanks!

Totally different games, basically. It's worth having a 1.5 and a black label imo. Only difference between BL and AV is that the bosses have less health in original and maniac on AV, so they go down a bit faster. Stages are identical.

[BareKnuckleRoo]

Question… I own a Japanese Mushihimesama Futari 1.5 kit and was wondering if it's a upgrade or downgrade to get the Black Label "Another Version" kit? I'd love to have "God Mode" but from what I understand the "International / Another / Shitty" version fucks with the difficulty? So, what's the forum consensus on this?

Honestly I prefer 1.5 to Black Label (I own both the 1.5 PCB and the BL AV PCB). But friends of mine prefer Black Label. 1.5 and Black Label are fundamentally different games because of the different shot types available, changes to enemy layout, etc. Really, I wouldn't want to own just one or the other, I'd want both. Changing 1.5 to Black Label isn't 'upgrading' it - it's essentially changing to a different game.

Black Label "Another Ver" was a weird international version that was released with a couple minor tweaks. When I first bought the board thinking it was the Black Label JP ver and then discovered it was "Another Ver" we were testing it in an emulator to compare the differences between versions (see thread here: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=46235 - it was super disappointing at the time to discover it was made unnecessarily easier, but having played both I can easily switch from Another Ver Original/Maniac to the Japanese versions without any problems at the bosses, and someone who only learned Another Version would probably do fine the first time they played a credit of the JP version).

The result is that "Another Ver" is more or less comparable to the JP ver. God Mode difficulty is identical in both versions, with an input replay in one synching perfectly with the other. There may be changes to Spiritual Larsa I'm not aware of, but as far as we can tell God Mode (the mode most serious players will want to play extensively) is unchanged. Original and Maniac have no changes to the stages, only to the boss health which was slightly reduced. And I mean slightly - Black Label bosses already die super fast compared to their 1.5 counterparts, so you have to really be paying attention or watching a side-by-side replay to compare.

Basically, if you can beat the game in Black Label Another Version, you can beat the game in the Japanese one. The scoreboards are separate because the versions are changed, but they're comparable. What I mean is that if you're able to get a high score in the Another Version you shouldn't have any problems getting an identical score in the Japanese version, so there's no shame in owning a Black Label AV PCB. It's just as enjoyable as the Black Label JP ver is (and you can still get access to that via the Xbox 360 port if you'd like).

[Despatche]

The problem with AV is that it's a very minor version difference, which causes way more problems than it should. Splitting them is simply insane and not a great option. Telling people to submit AV scores for the main board and mark them like it's not a big deal seems to work at first, since AV is not a huge version difference like a Toaplan export version, but it still threatens to create a serious integrity and consistency issue that only currently fails to happen (with any game, not just Futari BL) because we don't have an army of top-level players who could dare to debate the legitimacy of one version over the other. The truly sensible choice is to just beg people to ignore that AV exists at all, but even that is less sensible than usual because AV is more easily accessible than the original and an entire mode is identical between the two.

There's no winning with version differences. Ever. Version differences and other such variables are a great evil in video gaming, rearing its ugly head whenever they aren't being maintained properly or whenever there are just so damned many of them. It's a kind of false choice.

AV is a really weird "Futari BL v1.1" that was only released years after the fact, in and for a totally different market than the one of the developers themselves, and its entire existence is frustrating. I will never cease to be completely pissed off that MAME thought it'd be a great idea to make it the parent. Just like how Wikipedia has an awful lot of power over who says what, MAME has an awful lot of power over who experiences what. This is another kind of false choice. Going forward, people that don't already know an awful lot about the game (people that aren't us) are going to be under the impression that AV is all that really matters, simply because it's the parent rom and because people hate having to "click" more to get what they want. Maybe when Futari finally comes out on Steam, some of this will be alleviated, but I kinda doubt it.

[SMC]

AV may have a scoring advantage over regular BL. Since bosses have less health you can cancel more profitable early attacks that you would normally be too late for. The rate of counter decrease during bosses doubles while you are shooting so less HP = less shooting = higher gem value.

[brokenhalo]

The problem with AV is that it's a very minor version difference, which causes way more problems than it should. Splitting them is simply insane and not a great option. Telling people to submit AV scores for the main board and mark them like it's not a big deal seems to work at first, since AV is not a huge version difference like a Toaplan export version, but it still threatens to create a serious integrity and consistency issue that only currently fails to happen (with any game, not just Futari BL) because we don't have an army of top-level players who could dare to debate the legitimacy of one version over the other. The truly sensible choice is to just beg people to ignore that AV exists at all, but even that is less sensible than usual because AV is more easily accessible than the original and an entire mode is identical between the two.

The scores are already tracked separately here on the hi-score board. You even have a score listed on the BL AV original mode scoreboard. Not sure why you're so bent out of shape on this one. If you can find a cheap source for BL Jp pcbs, I'm all ears.

[Despatche]

Pardon me for being a little frustrated here, but I explained exactly why things are not that simple, and you seem to have completely ignored it in favor of putting forward the exact point that I specifically set out to tackle. My post boils down to AV was a mistake and should never have existed, which was literally (not even misusing the word) seen as "empty", so I made a bigger post. All I can do is tell you to please actually read it.

I get this far too often. I'm tired of people telling me it's my fault, and I'm tired of begging people to actually read what I'm trying to say when it's pretty obvious that they aren't. I speak in the plainest English I can possibly muster, and I spend way too much time and effort doing my best to write things as clearly as physically possible, specifically to avoid these things happening, and my efforts are constantly and endlessly used to blame me for these things happening. When you go through all that effort, and you get a dismissal that doesn't refer to a single thing you did or said, you get frustrated. When it happens time after time, year after year, you try as hard as you can to hide it with a "pardon me for being a little frustrated".

AV may have a scoring advantage over regular BL. Since bosses have less health you can cancel more profitable early attacks that you would normally be too late for. The rate of counter decrease during bosses doubles while you are shooting so less HP = less shooting = higher gem value.

I completely forgot about that! I feel about as dumb as the decision to create Another Version. How stupid, how mindnumbingly stupid. Fuck CAVE and their stupid thousands of versions with minor version differences, just get it right the first time for fuck's sake. Swear to God, if I ever make a game, it will have as few categories as is necessary to make the game actually interesting, and it will never be released to the public unless I am 100% positive that it does not ever need some rebalance. I hate categories so god damned much.

[Shepardus]

Add that to the pile, now even AV God has to have a board.

Why is that? Bosses don't have less health in AV God.

[Despatche]

I forgot that too, please ignore that.

[brokenhalo]

Pardon me for being a little frustrated here, but I explained exactly why things are not that simple, and you seem to have completely ignored it in favor of putting forward the exact point that I specifically set out to tackle. My post boils down to AV was a mistake and should never have existed, which was literally (not even misusing the word) seen as "empty", so I made a bigger post. All I can do is tell you to please actually read it.

So you hate the game because of the way MAME lists it? That's not a very good reason.

I get this far too often. I'm tired of people telling me it's my fault, and I'm tired of begging people to actually read what I'm trying to say when it's pretty obvious that they aren't. I speak in the plainest English I can possibly muster, and I spend way too much time and effort doing my best to write things as clearly as physically possible, specifically to avoid these things happening, and my efforts are constantly and endlessly used to blame me for these things happening. When you go through all that effort, and you get a dismissal that doesn't refer to a single thing you did or said, you get frustrated. When it happens time after time, year after year, you try as hard as you can to hide it with a "pardon me for being a little frustrated".

Youe English is fine. Your reasoning just doesn't make much sense.

[Shepardus]

His point is that regional variants are dumb, which I think is pretty fair (though Donpachi Hong Kong is hilarious).

[Despatche]

please for god's sake just read the fucking post efjejagjrknktmkyfmfgmn

[brokenhalo]

please for god's sake just read the fucking post efjejagjrknktmkyfmfgmn

I did. Read the OP. Tell me how your tirade against regional variants and MAME listing answers the question that was asked in the first post.

In a perfect world, we'd all be playing on Jp reqion boards. Or we'd have a way to rom-swap the AV boards to Jp region. But we don't and there's about a $2000 difference between the costs of the 2 pcbs. Keeping that in mind, would you really tell the OP to not get an AV board if he wanted to play BL?

[waiwainl]

The problem with AV is that it's a very minor version difference, which causes way more problems than it should. Splitting them is simply insane and not a great option. Telling people to submit AV scores for the main board and mark them like it's not a big deal seems to work at first, since AV is not a huge version difference like a Toaplan export version, but it still threatens to create a serious integrity and consistency issue that only currently fails to happen (with any game, not just Futari BL) because we don't have an army of top-level players who could dare to debate the legitimacy of one version over the other. The truly sensible choice is to just beg people to ignore that AV exists at all, but even that is less sensible than usual because AV is more easily accessible than the original and an entire mode is identical between the two.

I see your point in Scoring administration and I can agree.

But after reading your posts here, I think your argument to 'ignore AV exists at all' is somewhat weak. It seems to be more your feeling and not a technical argument. I mean, the board exists, deal with it

[Bananamatic]

In a perfect world, we'd all be playing on Jp reqion boards. Or we'd have a way to rom-swap the AV boards to Jp region. But we don't and there's about a $2000 difference between the costs of the 2 pcbs.

in a perfect world people would be smart enough to just play the port

[Shepardus]

In a perfect world there would be a (good) PC port, or emulation would actually work well.

[brokenhalo]

In a perfect world, we'd all be playing on Jp reqion boards. Or we'd have a way to rom-swap the AV boards to Jp region. But we don't and there's about a $2000 difference between the costs of the 2 pcbs.

in a perfect world people would be smart enough to just play the port

But then how could we lord it over the peasants?

Just kidding of course. Who cares how people are playing, as long as they are playing.

[mikejmoffitt]

In a perfect world, we'd all be playing on Jp reqion boards. Or we'd have a way to rom-swap the AV boards to Jp region. But we don't and there's about a $2000 difference between the costs of the 2 pcbs.

in a perfect world people would be smart enough to just play the port

In a perfect world people don't have to bend over backwards to ensure the stupid expensive TV they bought isn't adding latency or smearing like an old turd, on top of any latency they might get from their controller setup, on top of the game having a little input lag itself (if any).

[Bananamatic]

near lagless monitors are cheap, crts are possibly free, most arcade sticks have no delay issues and you can buy the whole setup for less than the pcb, plus you can use the stick on pc and play other games on the 360
futari port itself has way less lag than the pcb and costs only $20
I see no issues

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

I've never heard anyone claim the port on modern hardware has less lag than the PCB on CRT/cab/supergun. Where is the proof of this? Please don't say the ingame option to add a frame is your basis. Also I have never used a "lagless monitor". Are they truly lagless as a CRT?

[mikejmoffitt]

There exist monitors that are lagless, in that they add no intermediary buffer to introduce lag. Usually this comes in the form of a scaling feature, cheaper OSD implementation, temporal interpolation (59.9Hz != 60Hz, etc), and there's so much variance as to how they are implemented.

The ideal LCD monitor, from an electrical perspective, marshalls data straight from the DVI/HDMI link decoder to the panel, with only a simple mux for overlaying an OSD. The "evo monitors" do this, or at least a no-framebuffer solution. The funny thing is that implementing it this way is cheaper, since you don't need any memory to store a whole frame :E. All of this is thrown out of the window when you have to do any vertical scaling (i.e. 720p --> 1080p monitor). That can be done effectively with one frame of latency, if v-sync is truly locked and triple buffering is not employed.

Monitors talking about "2ms time!!!!!11" are referring to the grey-to-grey transition time for a pixel, and not signal-based latency.

An LCD scans the same way a CRT does - left-to-right, top-to-bottom. Without funny emulation techniques (like running at multiples of the original frequency), you don't "beat" the original with anything.

There's also the matter of whether or not the smearing of an LCD's response bothers you. It has gotten quite good, but OLED is going to be the king here. Many LCDs have overdrive techniques to mitigate the smearing from low response time, but these often introduce artifacts of their own.

Finally, almost all of the "lagless" LCDs are pretty poor TN panels. Unless you're willing to dedicate a second, shittier looking LCD to your shooty games, using one of these as your main monitor might mean you end up with a pretty drab looking monitor. This isn't all of them, but TN still wins in response time (and just about nothing else).