Ninja Gaiden [NES] + R2RKMF: Scrolling Action Monogatari

[M.Knight]

Congrats! Glad you liked Cave Noire. I think its relative shallowness compared to most roguelikes is actually its biggest strength. The lack of bloat and useless items gives it a pretty appealing learning curve whereas regular roguelikes have lots of item and enemy quirks to remember before you even get a chance at having a good run. BIL defined it as an arcade-style roguelike, it is a fitting definition.

By the way, the orbs do actually have a function. Using an orb will indicate whether there is another orb, a shield or a sword on the current floor. If there isn't any of those items, you'll only get the jingle but otherwise, you'll also see a small picture of the item.

I usually don't emulate but I guess I'll have to make an excetion for that one.
(If I had a Gameboy Everdrive then I could use that. but alas, I don't... and I'm not sure I want a repro either)

If you emulate it, don't forget the translation patch. Cave Noire is not heavy on text but it's always more convenient.

EDIT: Oh dear god. -_- Stage 5, go all the way to the right, hop down the unassuming castle turret (maybe there's treasure, or a doorway!) and BOOM. Stranded, and can't even die this time. Either I'm missing something major, the emulation/ROMZ is fucked, or this thing is a goddamn latent kusoge.

st5 BGM "NO ESCAPE"

Spoiler

^ tried climbing up the apparent "handholds" ala stage 3's columns, lmao :[ Looks like I'll pass on this one.

Oh boy, and I thought the stage 3 dead-end was a one-of-a-kind level design error. I reached this stage once but was lucky enough to avoid this pitfall.
I suppose savestates are mandatory to avoid having your entire progress erased due to those basic design mistakes. Who knows how many other ways to get stuck there are in the game?

[BIL]

Even though it's only been a week, Madoola has been so utterly obliterated from my mind I had to think for a sec which game I'd been posting about. Just god-awful map design. I have a tendency to really squirrel my way down into a game, rooting about for faults... this was more like stepping on a rake, doing a dazed 360, then promptly clobbering myself again.

GOD BLESS TEH ROMZ

[BrianC]

Unfortunately, SMB is practically impossible to play well using an arcade joystick! Proper control of Mario requires really fine muscle-memory tapping back and forth on the D-pad, which really isn't possble on a joystick - especially not those wonky Nintendo ones that you see in original VS cabinets. It's really too bad.
Maybe I'll sit down and play an emulated version of the game some day, with a proper controller. But I'll probably wait for an legit release (I believe Hamster is announced to do an ACA release)

I haven't had a problem using joystick for SMB. Tapping back and forth is definitely possible on joystick and a requirement in many games. I like playing Vs. SMB with the Everdrive N8 on real hardware. It works with standard d-pad controllers too (though unlike the original SMB, it can't be played with FC accessory controllers, if I remember correctly).

Even though it's only been a week, Madoola has been so utterly obliterated from my mind I had to think for a sec which game I'd been posting about. Just god-awful map design. I have a tendency to really squirrel my way down into a game, rooting about for faults... this was more like stepping on a rake, doing a dazed 360, then promptly clobbering myself again.

I heard one of Sunsoft's other early games, Atlantis no Nazo also has evil map design. There's even one area that requires the FC second controller microphone to get out of.

[BIL]

Madoola left me wondering just how bad the more reputedly kusoge Atlantis could really be. I'm guessing pretty goddamn bad, but tbh I've got so much other early (83-87) Famicom stuff to evaluate, I'm in no hurry. Just opened the Pandora's box of Namco's myriad, often excellent ports... Rolling Thunder and Xevious are beastly good. Thanks for the tip on Sky Kid FC vs NES by the way!

Incidentally I was trying out Konami's flipscreen topdown roaming actioner King Kong II: IKARI NO MEGATON PUNCH recently. Exploration is evidently a bit of a poisoned chalice there. I went on an odyssey to the first stage's farthest reaches, only to abruptly find myself dumped back at the very start, with little to show for it. I kinda like the effect tbh! Tormented dream logic.

I've gone all this fucking way to wind up back at...
Back at the start!

Reminds me of a dream I once had, walking down a dark railway platform and glimpsing someone in the shadows on the opposite side, their progress an inversion of mine; passing beneath a light I glanced over to see it was my ruined corpse staring blankly back at me, moving with a graceless impulse as if being puppeteered - I vividly recall its head twisting painfully to maintain eye contact as its shredded, vacant face disappeared back into the dark. I like awful symmetry and a generous bit of space/time fuckery! As you are, so once was I - as I am, so you shall be! I was playing a lot of Silent Hill 3 at the time! Pwhoaar, those were some nice darkened train platforms. Sorry for boring headshrinker talk. Dreams - like a stack of vacation snaps, if you're not in them and nobody is having sex, who cares MIRITE?!

Outright traps like Madoola's, though - no. Absolutely unforgivable. FFFAAAAACK ORFF YA WEE FANNEH

What a phenomenal turn-around between the two halves of Sunsoft's FC canon. After Madoola's awfulness, I'm a lot less perplexed by the rare yet stinging cheap shots endemic to even the latter. They seem less like inexplicable lapses in otherwise AAA games - more vestigial reminders of the company's earlier days. I'm much less confounded by my absolute worst example of this, Dynamite Batman's Stage 3-1. That's a real blast from the past.

[Vanguard]

I played through Madoola all the way to the end and while it has some appeal, it's clearly more bad than good. It's crazy to me that the same company that made such a clunky mess also created Gimmick! and Batman. Hebereke was brought up a bit ago. That one's technically sound and looks great, but I really didn't care for it. It's way too slow and tame. I'd rather replay Madoola.

I think its relative shallowness compared to most roguelikes is actually its biggest strength. The lack of bloat and useless items gives it a pretty appealing learning curve whereas regular roguelikes have lots of item and enemy quirks to remember before you even get a chance at having a good run. BIL defined it as an arcade-style roguelike, it is a fitting definition.

That's a matter of complexity rather than depth. Cave Noire has a relatively low number of items and monsters, but it uses them very effectively and everything has a purpose so it's not a problem at all. As you say, it can even be seen as a strong point. The problem is that Cave Noire isn't like Brogue or DoDonPachi where you can play for 100s of hours and still see improvements.

The "coin-op dungeon crawler" description is spot on.

[BrianC]

Funny thing about Atlantis no Nazo is that it almost came to the US as a sequel to Super Pitfall. The game also uses a treasure pickup sound that was ripped off from Dragon's Lair (AC version).

[BIL]

Hebereke leaves me a bit conflicted, having recently added it to my collection. 3:

EDIT: You know what? This post ended up making for a decent episode of 2ND OPINON. Hit it, Gun-Deckard!



HEBEREKE [FC / Sunsoft 1991] Pricey and distinctly lacking bite, but potentially ideal for a lazy rainy day. Basic handling is exemplary late Sunsoft, fluidly animated with perfectly-judged heft. There's a sense of tactile reward in even the littlest things, like the run-ups needed to clear larger gaps, the bubblewrap-compulsive hop/bop, and O-Chan's scampering across ice that leaves the other characters sprawling. The map is small relative to other FC labyrinths, but there's a total lack of filler and a decent level of freedom that keeps replays entertaining. In this type of longer, non-linear action game, the casual mental exercise of plotting an efficient single-sitting route is largely what keeps me coming back. Filtering out noise and flab is a natural element of that, something I can quite enjoy (see Metafight) - but it's nice to get something truly user-friendly once in a while.

The offbeat tone is cool too... childlike but not cutesy, a little gross but always innocently so. I like the ghost's charge attack - lowering his shades and clocking himself over the head with a mallet, his disembodied eyeballs relentlessly seek/destroying all foes in sight. One of gaming's coolest homing shots imo!

Undeniably, it's a degree too easygoing. With few exceptions, stages and bosses seldom threaten - the trickier stuff is good (deftly freeze-shotting enemies over deadly lava, readying charge attacks amidst Cat Knight's rain of spears), but vanishingly rare. Stronger sidescrolling adventures maintain tension, with even the best-refined runs entailing danger - Metroid's deceptively lethal hitstun, Faxanadu's brutal yet finessed swordplay, Wizard's ever-nearing spectre of fatal exhaustion. Hebereke almost totally foregoes this vital uncertainty. Needed cranking up a notch, making those aformentioned extremes the midpoint norm, with a proper climactic trial to cap things off.

There's also the highly tedious bomb mechanic - whoever mandated those double-thick walls was a bit of an asshole, tbh. ZZZ. A small fraction of the total experience, mercifully.

I was considering selling it on shortly after my first couple playthroughs. However, I recently spent an evening on FC Rolling Thunder and its unofficial sequel Dead Fox - shock death perpetually frames away, surviving to their later stages a genuine trial - and afterward, found myself distinctly welcoming another amiable bounce through Hebereke. So I'll keep it around to cool off with, after yet another arcade-bred killer hurls the remains of my carbonised, disintegrating buttocks back at me.

JUDGMENT: Absolutely not to be approached for any sort of sustained pressure, but its smooth handling, relaxing flow and distinct character may find it a place in hardcore-dominated libraries. I reserve the right to cash in if the price ever goes fucken nuts like Battle Formula. ¦3

[__SKYe]

Managed to reduce the number of lives lost to 1 in Quarth (FC), on Level 9-6 this time (started from L7).

Also found out the use of one of the special shapes: the 'S' one will stop the playfield from scrolling for a while.

Congrats! Glad you liked Cave Noire. I think its relative shallowness compared to most roguelikes is actually its biggest strength. The lack of bloat and useless items gives it a pretty appealing learning curve whereas regular roguelikes have lots of item and enemy quirks to remember before you even get a chance at having a good run. BIL defined it as an arcade-style roguelike, it is a fitting definition.

By the way, the orbs do actually have a function. Using an orb will indicate whether there is another orb, a shield or a sword on the current floor. If there isn't any of those items, you'll only get the jingle but otherwise, you'll also see a small picture of the item.

Thanks. Also good to know that the Orb actually has a use outside of its quest.
I've tried to use them several times before, but all I got was the jingle, so I just assumed that they had no actual use, and where just leftovers from their quest.

I heard one of Sunsoft's other early games, Atlantis no Nazo also has evil map design. There's even one area that requires the FC second controller microphone to get out of.

I knew the microphone item allows you to stop enemies' movement by speaking into P2's microphone, but I didn't know a level required it to be cleared.
Either way, this game has all sort of nasty stuff. There are 101 'zones', and you go warp to other zones by entering doors. Only zones aren't linked in order (you basically will warp all over the place), and many zones have multiple doors to enter, so it's more like a labyrinth than anything else.

By itself, this system wouldn't be too bad, but there are also zones that are pure evil, like the Black Hole, which is a fully dark zone, where you'll simply fall straight to your doom and get an instant game over, or warps that must be found by bombing specific spots, or even others that will warp you when you fall in a specific hole (where you'd normally lose a life), etc.

Couple that with your absolutely horrendous weapon (a very slow exploding dynamite), and moderately weird/annoying jumping mechanics, and you have a pretty disappointing game.

But then again, it is a very early Famicom game, so it's not too unexpected.

[LichbannMejolaro]

I'm trying my way through Contra Hard Corps now and I'm having a real hard time. How I miss Konami this day, so many classics made by them in the 90's.

This games reminds me a bit of Treasure Games, with lots of boss fights.

[BIL]

Hard Corps, just like Shattered Soldier, has a really extreme, deceptive difficulty peak and trough. It's basically an inverted "V..." rough getting to the top, but once you've seen a route's patterns and setpieces, you may nail those clears quicker than you'd expect.

Which version are you playing? The US one is infamously harder to learn on account of its one-hit kills. The JP original lets you take three hits before death, which obviously makes the initial learning phase much easier. Hitpoints aside, both versions are 100% identical - so from a master's perspective there ultimately isn't much difference.

I grew up with the US version, and tbh still prefer its more jarring instant deaths - taking a giant drill or cannon shell to the face should not prompt a mere "owch!" in Contra - but the JP version is definitely better-balanced. There are a couple boss attacks you're realistically not going to survive the first time around in US... or in JP, if you're on your last hitpoint, but at least the latter gives you the chance of taking the hit. I prefer JP these days, since I can challenge myself with the same no-miss clears I'm used to in US, or fool around in 2P without my nubby pals running out of lives every two minutes. Kinda two games in one, that way.

US Hard Corps is so mean they actually went and deleted the JP version's level select and extra life cheats. I remember tasting despair when after blowing my piggybank on the game and getting fried by st3's constellations, I tried out the JP codes GamePro had erroneously printed for the US version. No dice, noobs! US ver is gonna rock your ass like a horse's dick!

However I am long since grateful for the scars.

[Sumez]

Hard Corps' first stage is the hardest by far. I can run through the game no problem, but I'll often reset multiple times on the first stage. After that the game is a lot more mellow and much less random.

[LichbannMejolaro]

Hard Corps, just like Shattered Soldier, has a really extreme, deceptive difficulty peak and trough. It's basically an inverted "V..." rough getting to the top, but once you've seen a route's patterns and setpieces, you may nail those clears quicker than you'd expect.

Which version are you playing? The US one is infamously harder to learn on account of its one-hit kills. The JP original lets you take three hits before death, which obviously makes the initial learning phase much easier. Hitpoints aside, both versions are 100% identical - so from a master's perspective there ultimately isn't much difference.

I grew up with the US version, and tbh still prefer its more jarring instant deaths - taking a giant drill or cannon shell to the face should not prompt a mere "owch!" in Contra - but the JP version is definitely better-balanced. There are a couple boss attacks you're realistically not going to survive the first time around in US... or in JP, if you're on your last hitpoint, but at least the latter gives you the chance of taking the hit. I prefer JP these days, since I can challenge myself with the same no-miss clears I'm used to in US, or fool around in 2P without my nubby pals running out of lives every two minutes. Kinda two games in one, that way.

US Hard Corps is so mean they actually went and deleted the JP version's level select and extra life cheats. I remember tasting despair when after blowing my piggybank on the game and getting fried by st3's constellations, I tried out the JP codes GamePro had erroneously printed for the US version. No dice, noobs! US ver is gonna rock your ass like a horse's dick!

However I am long since grateful for the scars.

I'm really really surprised with this info.

I'm playing the US version and I was 100% sure that being a one hit point character was a rule in the Contra series. I had no idea that the JP version offered a 3hit option.

Hard Corps' first stage is the hardest by far. I can run through the game no problem, but I'll often reset multiple times on the first stage. After that the game is a lot more mellow and much less random.

I'd not say that the first one, but definitely as you and BIL pointed out, the difficulty distribution in this game is a bit uneven, since the last part is not the hardest one (to be honest, the last stage is incredible easy, since you have pretty much zero platforming and is just boss fight after boss fight).

But anyway, now that I'm already getting used to it (finished the game using 3 continues), I think that with the extra lives that it gives you, I can go for a 1cc pretty soon (even though I think that a No-Miss would be hell on earth with some patterns on later bosses).

[Squire Grooktook]

Hard Corps' first stage is the hardest by far.

Naaaaaah, no way!

The first stage's zako rush is pretty fun and intense, but it's probably easier than any of the zako run and gun sections in Contra 3, and there are a number of bosses scattered throughout HC that are far more random and hairy.

The difficulty is based on peaks and valleys though. Lots of dry, safe-spottable patterns followed by genuinely nervy rng battles and vice versa. It's a messy game, but definitely has its own magic.

[copy-paster]

The last time I played Hard Corps was two years ago. I would consider it a perfect Contra game ever if it has tweaks and balance here and here.

Btw I did a 1LC run on The Hard Corps! You can see the JP version here.

[BIL]

The Hard Corps free run I give the most thought to (as in "ohshi I'd better not fumble or this run is down the pan") is the rocket base. It's not rocket science ( ), but it incorporates something vital from the series' past that the rest of HC tends to neglect: topography. It's fairly tight and bumpy in there between the barricades and lack of headroom, giving the otherwise tame snipers and slashers a split-second edge. Even HC's best zako (like the alien hive's brilliant Mansized Roosters) feel stranded without it.

Of course it's over in seconds, but it makes the most of its time.

The remainder are pretty breezy - always fun but not something I worry about. Alien hive is my favourite since you can push the speed limit with Creative Downshotting™ - the Abominable Roostermen skidding and careening with ravenous intent! Sheena A is a good time there.

st3's junkyard would've likely been a classic, had they just incorporated the bikers into the run itself for a little horizontal pressure. That's the story of HC, unfortunately... all the components for a face-melting classic, but the uneven arrangement relegates it to merely fucken rad. Which is still pretty good.



(I liek 2 pretend they habe FORCE FIELD ;3 Four on the floor, baybee! )

The game's single scariest threat for me, outside of the Claw Bahamut / Spheroid Joe / DR FUCKEN CRAB triple crown, is actually Jungle Spheroid Brother #1's bullet rain. Deadly attack from an otherwise irrelevant boss. The bullets are sparse, but they come in fast and at tricky, random angles - the status bar hiding their approach doesn't help either. I have to fight the temptation to slide if I get particularly scary RNG - sometimes it works, but you'll just as easily get owned in the recovery. Of course, it's entirely possible you won't ever see this attack... I'd have hard-coded it in for sure, maybe to transition between the fight's two halves.

Also, the "sup, motherfucker?" dance he does during the attack makes getting killed by it especially demoralising.

It's a decidedly poisoned chalice, but the GBA version of the train run is actually pretty interesting owing to that port's... idiosyncrasies. Actually possible to die there if you're not careful. In practice it's total anathema to the spirit of HC itself, unfortunately. Feels more like AC Super actually, with the lack of horizontal space and slow yet deadly-accurate enemy fire.

[__SKYe]

Man, this is gonna be a post about some disappointments.

First off, played a run of Final Fight 2 on Expert with Carlos, and made it all the way to the last boss, and chipped away his health until it was bright green (right before the bar started depleting), but got the game over then.
Suddenly, that stupid life lost on the very 1st boss, just became that much more stupid, since I'd probably have won if I hadn't lost it then.

The game doesn't get that much more difficult, compared to Hard, though there's the usual (slightly) inflated HP bars, and different enemy groups.

The one thing that makes playing Expert pretty irritating, are the Andores, because they have so much health, and take so little damage, that it is a massive boredom to slowly beat them all. Definitely brings the experience down a notch, since they aren't any more threatening than usual.

A proper 1CC should come soon, though.

-----

Disappointment #2: played Quarth from Level-0 until the end, managed to clear all the hard levels without losing any lives, but lost one on Level-6.



Really, playing through all those boring inital levels has a bad effect on the overall skill, since you'll get used to playing without much care.
Oh well, the proper 1LC should come soon as well.

Some other observations:

The "shots not latching on shapes that aren't fully scrolled in" isn't too important on the long run, since it's only on the easier levels that you (mostly) have to worry about this. It's annoying, yes, but it's no big deal.

As for the special shapes, there are 4 types
- "E" (for Erase, I guess): Clears all shapes on screen
- "S" (for Stop): Stops the playfield from scrolling for awhile
- "B" (for Bonus): Gives a score bonus when cleared
- "C" (for Combo, or something along those lines): It's the one I'm still not sure what it does.

The "C" is the one that stops your ship for a brief moment (and messes your game), and your ship will flash and change shape. The ship will also get a '2x' tile, which I assume is a 2x combo multiplier (hence why I assume the 'C' stands for Combo), but I 'm really not sure.
I've read in a FAQ that this special shape makes your ship, and I quote "much faster in all aspects", though I don't really notice a difference, but maybe I'm just plain wrong.

Another, not very useful thing, is that the very last shapes on each level will automatically be cleared, if the end of level stage-counter (the 0/1 or 0/2 tiles that appears on the right side of the screen) scroll onto the screen.

Also, whenever you complete a shape, it will start disappearing and the playfield will stop scrolling until it is completely gone, but you can still manually scroll, and you will lose a life if the disappearing shape tiles hit the bottom of the screen, so be careful.

-----

This is more of a correction than a game related post.

I was skimming through the thread's old posts, and I noticed a glaring problem with a few of my posts, way back when kitten joined in (here), when we were discussing speedrunning:

Yeah, I do respect the guys who do speedruns, and also respect the fact that the goal of a speedrun is not neccessarily the 1CC, as there are a lot of ways to do self-imposed handicaps/challenges to get the maximum out of a game. I simply don't enjoy watching them.
You see, I'd rather see a run of a real player, with all the inherent flaws, than see a theoretically perfect speedrun. I guess it's that feeling that what you see is achieveable with just the person's skills and not assisted in any way.
I'd even prefer, by a landslide, to watch a failed attempt to get a 1CC/1LC/No-Damage run by a human player.
But then again, it's that's just me, and I have absolutely nothing against those who like it.

What I do dislike is when people who do like speedruns, get in their minds that the *perfection* achieved in such runs is the only way the game is to be played. Anything short (like a human player's run) is not as "impressive", regardless if the human player can do it on the spot without any help from tools/etc.

I don't know how I missed this at the time, but I was referring to Tool Assisted Speedruns, and I thought others were too.

This is why there's a bunch of "human player" or "real player" in that post, and I don't know if nobody said anything about it, because they just thought I was writing in some weird way, but I totally got the topic wrong, and I apologise.

I know it's a bit late to be posting this, but I thought I should at least correct myself.

Truth be told, while I appreciate human speedrunners more than TAS ones, I still dislike the overall concept of speedrunning, so a decent chunk of those posts' content still remain true to my proper opinion.

[BIL]

I can see what you mean about the "real player" phrase (real man, real gamer, real anything is an easy way to rustle feathers) - reading the post in detail though, I think it's pretty clear you're talking average human vs TAS performance, especially with the references to tool assistance. On a very slim chance, I guess someone could get the idea you were calling the speedrunner community a bunch of cheaters (or steroid abusers ), but I think they'd have piped up by now. edit: With a shit-ton of flaming, probably.

Either way, the thread was absolutely exploding around that point (by its usual relaxed standard), so I don't think any one of our posts stood out that much.

I think most here would at least respect the sheer consistency of speedrunners. I certainly do, particularly ones that can perform to huge crowds while providing entertaining, useful commentary like Funkdoc and PJ DiCesare. They're also my favoured source for quick, detailed mechanical primers on games I'm new to, and old favourites I'm revisiting. The actual running concept isn't my cup of tea either, though. It's a discipline, and I'm not a very disciplined guy. I like playing efficiently, but not to the point of harrying myself.

[FinalBaton]

__SKYe I also don't care much for speedrunning.

I fully realize it's an impressive feat but... I don't know it's just not for me. I don't enjoy watching that stuff.


People be like "LOOK HOW FAST I'M CLEARING THAT GAME DAWG" and I'm like . _ .

[Sumez]

I don't think you can generalize about speedruns like that. It differs a lot from one game to the other, between various categories the runners have made up for each game, and even between runners themselves.

Some runs are great because of how interesting all the glitches they make use of are, which I think is a lot of fun to watch for someone like me who's very interested in the tech behind especially older games, this espcially goes for stuff like manipulating AI, controlling RNG, etc. Ie. stuff we have actually been talking about in this thread.
Meanwhile other runs are completely uninteresting (to me!) because use of glitches completely removes a lot of the intended challenges of the games. On the flipside, this aspect can also make completely uninteresting, extremely easy, or just downright shitty games much more interesting! As a general rule though, I prefer speedruns of classic 8 or 16 bit games in glitchless categories. Other people might prefer other types of speedruns, but I think just saying that you don't like speedruns, is like saying that you don't like video games because you don't play World of Warcraft.

I think speedrunning is very much like 1LC'ing, scoring high, and other kinds of superplay variants that's commonly revered around this forum. The speedrun isn't necessarily just about clearing the game fast - sure, that's the method used to measure the success of the player, but quite often the concept is mostly about mastering the game and its mechanics.


Here are some examples of some speedruns that I think showcase how different the concept can be. Before claming that you don't like speedruns, you should at least watch some of them. All of them are taken from AGDQ/SGDQ because live commentary makes this stuff 10 times more interesting.

Metal Gear
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R43MsxMBF6w
Metal Gear is an example of a game with (almost?) no RNG, so the route is completely deterministic, and there is very little gameplay that relies on pixel perfect reactions by the player, so the success of the run is mostly based on the runner's ability to constantly remember everything he has to do. It's basically the flaws of Contra Hard Corps taken to the maximum.
This is actually an example of a type of speedrun that I don't like, however this particular example I still find somewhat interesting if only because it showcases just how deterministic the game is.

Yoshi's Island
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOrA91_xg4M
Trihex's Yoshi's Island 100% speedrun is almost the complete opposite. Everything in the game is based on Yoshi's constantly varying velocity and timing in a way that makes it almost feel like a 3D game, and as such nothing is ever completely predictable, and the runner's abilities to handle various challenges and difficult time-saving tricks, invites a ton of amazing improvised situations throughout the run. This is also a perfect example of one of those runs where the challenges a speedrunner faces also manages to showcase all the great descisions made when the game was designed. While speedrunning can make even bad games entertaining, I think it is also able to help good games prove their worth.

Quake
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuNTGEpdRRI
Quake is one of the first games to have a genuine speedrunning community built around it, dating back to when it was released. As such, the competition here is absurdly high, and runners have refined their skills over years and years of practice. Like Metal Gear, it requires a ton of simply knowing what to do, and most of the time the first person view completely obscures the vision that would help making any casual player aware of what they are supposed to do. This run takes all the shortcuts, rocket jumps everywhere, and manages to both play the stages in every way they aren't supposed to be played, while at the same time also showcasing an insanely high level of Quake skillz.

Super Mario Bros. 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbRgOnlJXk8
SMB3 by Duckfist. This is not that unique as far as speedruns go. Once again it's just a very good play of a great classic (which also happens to be a 1 life clear, btw), but I'm highlighting this because Duckfist is one of my favourite speedrunners. He has a great taste in games, plays them very well, and he has the ability to commentate extremely well, and be highly entertaining while he's playing. That alone makes all of his runs worth watching. Again, it's not so much about the speed as it's about the game.

Morrowind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnK3VaLXRfM
Probably one of the best examples of a completely broken game, and the fact that Morrowind can be beaten in five minuts is in itself incredible. Glitches are used liberally, but a large part of what is being done, is simply abusing some of the basic rules set up by the game in the first place, and I think this run really embraces the classic "sandbox" concept of game design, before developers started reining in the concept.
For example, anyone who played the game probably remembers the scroll that allows you to jump absurdly high, but kills you as you land. Well, by combining that with a few other skills, you can make it safe to use. And of course, overpowered gear is obtained simply by killing shopkeepers and taking their stuff, and the final boss can be reached straight from the beginning of the game as long as you know where he is.

Ninja Fucking Gaiden
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl_F8ijsN10
Finally, Ninja Gaiden, the revered name giver of this thread. This relay race between two teams playing all three Ninja Gaiden games back to back is absolutely amazing, and in my opinion the best moment to ever come out of the speedrunning community. Ninja Gaiden speedruns, much like Mega Man and Castlevania, are classic examples of pretty much straight up superplays. These are games with broken scoring systems, and the abilities of the runners are far above 1 life clears being any kind of challenge to them, so the only way they can compare their skills is by measuring how long it takes them to complete the game, which I think is completely fair.
This video has some of the best Ninja Gaiden players in the world competing in all three NES titles - how can you not love that? The race is insanely exciting, and I won't spoil the result, you just have to see this.

EDIT: Ninja Gaiden link fixed

[Immryr]

I don't see how anyone who even vaguely likes super metroid could fail to be blown away by a good reverse boss order speed run.

[FinalBaton]

Can't speak for __SKYe but for my part :

as I said in my previous post, I find the feat impressive. But I just don't get a lot of enjoyment watching them.

They're just not for me.

[Blinge]

If you wanna be bored you should watch me speedrun Silent Hill 2 sometime.
It's a lot of loading screens and walking through doors

Ps i didn't really enjoy super metroid ooohh come at me.

[__SKYe]

I can see what you mean about the "real player" phrase (real man, real gamer, real anything is an easy way to rustle feathers) - reading the post in detail though, I think it's pretty clear you're talking average human vs TAS performance, especially with the references to tool assistance. On a very slim chance, I guess someone could get the idea you were calling the speedrunner community a bunch of cheaters (or steroid abusers ), but I think they'd have piped up by now. edit: With a shit-ton of flaming, probably.

Ah yes, but there was a post (or two?) before this one, that wasn't explicit on the tool assisted part.
And also, yes, by 'real' player I really wasn't trying to sound like a prick, but was literally referring to a human player.

Either way, the thread was absolutely exploding around that point (by its usual relaxed standard), so I don't think any one of our posts stood out that much.

Very true, those were some turbulent, albeit fun, times.

I think most here would at least respect the sheer consistency of speedrunners. I certainly do, particularly ones that can perform to huge crowds while providing entertaining, useful commentary like Funkdoc and PJ DiCesare. They're also my favoured source for quick, detailed mechanical primers on games I'm new to, and old favourites I'm revisiting. The actual running concept isn't my cup of tea either, though. It's a discipline, and I'm not a very disciplined guy. I like playing efficiently, but not to the point of harrying myself.

I don't think you can generalize about speedruns like that. It differs a lot from one game to the other, between various categories the runners have made up for each game, and even between runners themselves.

[snip]

Yes, I respect the speedrunners, as they do have the tremendous skills to pull those runs off, and no one can deny it, regardless of whether one likes speedruns or not. My general dislike for speedruns is more towards the concept itself, and not the players (though it's not like I hate speedruns at all, rather, I don't really care for them).

Also, I agree that different games/genres (and also different players) will be more entertaining than others, but I still tend to dislike them more often than not.

One of the first speedruns I've watched (and one of the only ones) was the original MegaMan, and I didn't really liked it back then too. It was a very good run, and the player was quite good as well, but it revolved around using the "MegaMan in the walls" glitch, which totally ruins the experience for me. And this goes for most glitches in these runs, as I'd much rather watch an equally good performance (in terms of player skills) but going through the game as it was intended, than these sort of 'skips'.

I should note that I don't dislike every glitch used in games (whether in speedruns or not) -- case in point, the fast slash in Ninja Gaiden, which, while I prefer not to use, I have no problem watching a run were a player makes heavy use of it.
As for an example of what I don't enjoy (apart from the MegaMan one I wrote earlier), is using the pause trick in MegaMan to quickly defeat the Yellow Devil. I'm not saying no one should use it (others are certainly free to do so), but I just think that a good run should demonstrate the player dominating each and every obstacle in a game (including beating the Yellow Devil in MM1 properly).
And this is why a typical speedrun goes against my taste in video games' footage.

Of course, there are games that will normally end up being played fast, simply due to an experienced player's skill (like NG, for example, you'll naturally end up playing the game fast, because it becomes no fun to just waddle through the stages when you already know what to do, or Tetris/Puzzle Bobble/etc).

One last note on glitches or unintended design that makes tough parts of a game trivial by exploiting them (like the CV3 character switch against the Copy dude, that BIL posted a while back): as a rule, I tend to never use them, because I dislike the bad aftertaste of beating a game/obstacle like that. And an impressive run for me, is one that really dominates the obstacles in the game (be it level the levels themselves, enemies, bosses, etc) by using the intended means.
I concede though, that using glitches on otherwise crappy games, may make them more fun to play/watch, but that would be the exception, and not the rule.

Can't speak for __SKYe but for my part :

as I said in my previous post, I find the feat impressive. But I just don't get a lot of enjoyment watching them.

They're just not for me.

We share the same opinion, I totally respect both the players and the challenges that speedruns provide (after all, they are no different than a 1LC or 1CC, in the sense that they are all just self-imposed challenges), but personally, overall I don't enjoy the concept of blazing through a game for the sake of getting a fast clear time, and I only do so when it is within reasonable limits.

[BIL]

If you wanna be bored you should watch me speedrun Silent Hill 2 sometime.
It's a lot of loading screens and walking through doors

You should see me play SH2... I fucking walk the length and back of that cul-de-sac just outside Rosewater Park, just to admire the lovingly-detailed houses and automobiles. Actually, was there a medikit somewhere down there? Either way IDGAF!

Although they are emphatically not action games, SH1-4* kinda epitomise why I'd never get into speedrunning (besides said lack of discipline!). I like leaving things a little loose... in their case, since they're atmospheric every-other-winter revisits. In bonafide action games, it's more to stop things becoming too routine. I'm still finding spots in NG1 where the tone of a stage can be totally altered, simply by refusing to stop scrolling forward where I normally would. (of course in certain action games you need to form routines just to reliably survive - that's a slightly different kettle of fish)

The comparison between speedrunning and 1CCs/1LCs etc is totally apt. It's all self-imposed mastery either way.

(*SH4 is borderline with its crowd rucks and smoother, charge attack & iframe-driven combat, but even then I regard it the same... more ephemeral feels than punishing reals)

[__SKYe]

You should see me play SH2... I fucking walk the length and back of that cul-de-sac just outside Rosewater Park, just to admire the lovingly-detailed houses and automobiles. Actually, was there a medikit somewhere down there? Either way IDGAF!

I'm definitely also the type to stop and smell the flowers in anything that isn't an action game (and even then, I'll at least initially do it anyway).

[LichbannMejolaro]

Just as the speedrunning subject is going on, I'd like to give my two cents:

As others said in the thread, I pretty much dislike the ones where everything becomes a glitchfest. I've seen some speedruns of Dark Souls 3 where there are at least 2 or 3 bosses where the runner go for a glitch that shuts the enemy AI and then he just attacks it until he's dead.

The same goes for the example Skye gave on Megaman. The runs where the "zip" is used comes down to see the player running through the whole stage in the top on the screen.

Totally different for me are the runs that are "pure". I watch a lot of Super Metroid speedruns, and as far as I can remember, there isn't any glitch used: everything is "pure skill". These kind of runs are very entertaining to me.

But anyway, I must disagree with FinalBaton when he says that speedrunners are like "LOOK HOW FAST I'M CLEARING THAT GAME DAWG" simply because the exact same thing can be said about the "poor devils" who try to get 1cc on games. At the end of the day, people just find different ways to keep enjoying their games. I'm pretty sure that if I get a GOAT game that I love and 1cc multiple times, I'd probably try speedrun it to get even more enjoyment out of it.

Also, just to finish it, I agree with the Silent Hill 2 speedrun looking abysmal. I can't say exactly for SH2 (though it may be similar), but I remember watching a speedrun of SH1 in which the run took 1 hour, of which 38 FUCKING MINUTES was corresponding to loading times. The same goes for JRPGs for me: Watching a 8 hour speedrun of FF VII in which 6 of these hours shows the player pressing A/X through endless dialogues is the epitome of boring in my book.

[LichbannMejolaro]

It's a decidedly poisoned chalice, but the GBA version of the train run is actually pretty interesting owing to that port's... idiosyncrasies. Actually possible to die there if you're not careful. In practice it's total anathema to the spirit of HC itself, unfortunately. Feels more like AC Super actually, with the lack of horizontal space and slow yet deadly-accurate enemy fire.

Oh, since you mentioned the GBA version, I never played but read somewhere (maybe here in this thread) that is a version of Contra 3 where the top-down stages are replaced by Hard Corps stages. I really need to play these, since my only gripe with C3 is exactly the hate I have for the top-down stages, and knowing that they are out on the GBA may deliver a better experience.


Also, since copy-paster and yourself mentioned the JP version of Hard Corps, I downloaded the JP rom and I must say that I'm pretty impressed at how trivial the game becomes with a 3hit life.

I was able to make a easy 1cc in that version, without even getting close to lose the credit.

[EmperorIng]

Though I must say, if you are looking for both shits and giggles, blazing through SH1 as Harry "the Lawnmower Man" Mason, infini-swinging your katana on rapid fire as you blaze through the nightmarescape offers a certain amount of gratification.* Then again, I think my fastest time for SH1 was 3 hours - still taking time to get myself spooked!

*re-enactment of the moth fight on KATANA MODO

Evil Cult: heheh Harry let's see how you handle our latest monster of the week!
Moth monster: imma eat you Harry roooar *spooky music*
Harry Mason: OMAE WA MO SHINDEIRU

Moth monster: EH? N- NANI?? AIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

RANK: S+

[BIL]

^

That sounds strangely reminiscent of SH1-nobi (2002), right down to the hyperbolic boss lamentation and ranking. And giant moth!

Most of my NG+ time with SH1 was spent with Self View. Put it on default, with normal cam on shoulder button, and phwoaaar! You're gonna be spooked, and likely disoriented, like you've never been spooked before! The level of detail in those environments is staggering even now... the PS2 games look incomparably superior at a glance, but in reality, they were working their socks off just to keep up with SH1's precedent. One of the ultimate got lemons? make fucking napalm hardware turn-arounds.

Oh, since you mentioned the GBA version, I never played but read somewhere (maybe here in this thread) that is a version of Contra 3 where the top-down stages are replaced by Hard Corps stages. I really need to play these, since my only gripe with C3 is exactly the hate I have for the top-down stages, and knowing that they are out on the GBA may deliver a better experience.

To be honest, as an accurate port of Contra III and Hard Corps, the GBA version is pretty bad. I quite enjoy it on its own terms, as a very rough remix - but the tiny resolution and countless mechanical tweaks both big and small leave it far removed from the source materials. It actually makes Hard Corps' train stage a lot harder, which is cool (those bikers now have a decent shot at killing you, if not deftly picked off) - but then it completely waters down the next stage's bosses, since they'd be potentially impossible with the lack of HC's slide move. Uneven, in a word.

As for Contra III's topdown stages - although I actually enjoy them (the controls and handling are just as sharp as the main game's, and their seek+destroy action reminds me of Namco's Assault), I know they really turn some off. If it's any help, I would suggest getting solid routes down - both stages will be over in like a minute, tops, once you do. They can become incredibly tedious if you're getting lost.

Stage 5 also has those annoying spinner tiles, the solution to which isn't made explicit... double-tapping L or R will cause you to rotate quicker than normal. This'll counteract the spinners, and will also lock your aim during the boss's second form (more details here).

Having said all this, they're definitely love/hate affairs!

[Sumez]

One of the first speedruns I've watched (and one of the only ones) was the original MegaMan, and I didn't really liked it back then too. It was a very good run, and the player was quite good as well, but it revolved around using the "MegaMan in the walls" glitch, which totally ruins the experience for me. And this goes for most glitches in these runs, as I'd much rather watch an equally good performance (in terms of player skills) but going through the game as it was intended, than these sort of 'skips'.

... which is exactly why I wrote the post that I did. Not only are there categories for Mega Man 1 that doesn't use these skips, but apart from the zips in Mega Man 2, pretty much every other MM game is solid enough that the runners are playing those games straight up properly.
As I said in the post that you snipped away, I'm also not a big fan of using glitches in speedruns (unless those glitches are somehow more interesting than the intended route), but there are so many great speedruns out there that don't do it. So once, again, why should you generalize speedruns based on the runs that do?

Can't speak for __SKYe but for my part :

as I said in my previous post, I find the feat impressive. But I just don't get a lot of enjoyment watching them.

They're just not for me.

While I know I should respect your opinion, and I really can't tell how much of a chance you have given the concept, I feel that you are just too quick to jump to that conclusion.
That fact that you looked at my long post defending the broad spectrum of what a speedrun can be, and emploring people to forget the "speed" aspect and appreciate the way some runs dig into games on a high level instead, and replied with a simple "I respect it but I don't enjoy it" really gives me an impression that your approach is similar to what I quoted from SKYe above. So I apologize if I'm wrong about this, but I think some of you guys should at least watch the Ninja Gaiden and SMB3 runs I've linked above. I don't care if they are "speedruns" or not. This is just classic NES gaming at its best.

I'll repeat what Is said before. Saying that you "don't like speedruns" because you've seen some that you didn't find entertaining is like saying that you "don't like video games" because you've tried some that you didn't enjoy. I'm saying this because it also really took me a long time before I realised how interesting some speedruns could be. Something that's also partly owed to the fact that the whole speedrunning community can be pretty cringeworthy from time to time.