Confusion about control for Dodonpachi

[salve]

I was just playing Dodonpachi and decided I wanted to master it and all because I thought it was a perfect game. But then I discovered what I see as a flaw: you can't move a full 360 degrees. Only the four basic directions and the diagonals. So I think this is a serious fault in the design of precisely this type of game. It's this fault that gets me killed sometimes.
I haven't played any other games yet, but I wanted to confirm that this was in fact the case. I mean is there a hack somewhere that changes this? Is it the fault of my controller and not the game itself? Does anyone feel this way, this disappointment for what could have been a perfect game? Or is it generally accepted, or part of what's challenging? Also are the other games made to move a full 360 degrees, I mean any other shmups?

[Strider77]

[shoryusatsu999]

Probably a troll, but here's a serious answer anyway. Hate to break it to you, but most arcade and arcade-derived games in general use 8-way, 4-way or even 2-way movement due to how the arcade sticks work, and DoDonPachi is certainly not an exception. It's completely intentional, and I doubt you'll find one that does have 360 degree movement unless it's a modern twin sticker or something like Astebreed.

[Shepardus]

There are a couple games designed to use an analog stick (mostly twin-stick shooters from what I can think of) but most shmups are designed for an 8-way joystick or d-pad. IMO it usually works out better to have the consistency afforded by predictable movement along 45-degree angles than to theoretically have more granular movement capabilities but in reality get screwed over because you moved at a 50-degree angle instead of the 65-degree angle that you wanted. Kind of similar to why shmups feel so awkward with touchscreen drag controls even though the movement capabilities technically surpass what you can do with traditional directional controls. Also I like playing on a keyboard so it works out in my favor.

[Keade]

Well, you *can* rotate your ship over "360 degrees" (roll) in After Burner, and a few other shmups, also see REVOLVER360 RE:ACTOR

[salve]

I feel like my enthusiasm would be better spent on complete control so that it's always my fault when I die and I'm always growing and bettering. I understand what you mean about consistency of the 45 degree angles, but either way you're dealing with something that is meant to be incredibly difficult. It seems to me they should give you the full capability of controlling the vehicle so that you can properly master it. That's my basic mentality I don't know if I've changed my mind, but I see what you mean, so I'm thinking it's still worth playing.

[ciox]

It's not that clear cut, if you mostly play indie, modern or western shmups, analog control and inertia is all you're going to find and you can become accustomed to that, but it's indisputable that the old arcade way gives you the most precision, it just takes a while to realise it.
For instance an important technique in dodging lots of bullets is to move in small increments in a precise direction like left or right, to give up as little ground as possible while still dodging bullets that are aimed right at you, you really don't want analog control or inertia interfering with something like this.

[bigbadboaz]

It seems to me they should give you the full capability of controlling the vehicle

Whether or not this is the case - and I think most here would not agree that the vehicle is not "under your full control" - you're not understanding that this game comes from an era/genre where full analog control was not even a consideration. As in shoryusatsu's post, these games defaulted to 8-way joystick control, no ifs, ands, or buts.

You're simply not going to find a game from this time period or general mold that offers full 360-degree precision. It wasn't part of the template.

[Shepardus]

Keep in mind that these games were designed with these control schemes in mind - they're not going to throw something at you that requires analog controls but only give you 8-way movement. In that sense the lack of full 360-degree movement isn't taking away "full control" any more than, say, not being able to move up and down in 3D space or not being able to shoot behind you.

[salve]

Is inertia necessarily an analog issue? I don't see the benefit of that either, but the controller itself would only indicate sensitivity, and the if the game is designed right it should only give you speed, and you could adjust how much the slightest touch makes the vehicle move. I know it would be difficult at first, but you could still move in small increments if you master the controller. It would require a greater alertness and a more intense focus. And in the end you would be able to move in this precise direction you want in precisely this pivotal moment.
I think it would encourage greater awareness and a more spectacular dodging ability.

Also I understand, bigbadboaz, now that the limitations of the time are the cause of this, but the only reason why I'm interested in this at all is because of the idea I have, so I'm seeking the existence of something that fulfills that idea, and also contemplating whether this particular game that I like for a lot of other reasons (Dodonpachi) is still worth playing for me.

[salve]

I'm caring less and less about this debate and only want to find something that fulfills my idea. I'm not dissuaded yet. I see what you mean Shepardus about the games being designed for the control scheme, and I think I can respect that, but it's an issue for me about whether these games live up to my ideal. So now I'm just looking at the suggestions mentioned here: twin stick shooters and astebreed.

[Shepardus]

I think Gradius V also supports analog movement.

Whether it makes sense for a particular game depends on the style of movement. Gradius V and some others ask for careful, deliberate movement where fine-tuned analog control can make sense; on the other hand, more frantic games like, say, Dangun Feveron, are more about fast, well-timed movements than pixel-perfect precision, and additional complexity in movement would be more of a burden than a boon (though I would welcome a slower movement option for the cat...). In such cases the dodges would be hardly more or less "spectacular" either way since they'd look and feel pretty much the same.

Also in general I believe people (not just you) overemphasize the effect of controls on their performance. What feels like a death due to shoddy controls/hardware is more often than not actually caused by the player's unfamiliarity with the game. If it gets to the point where a pixel or frame caused by control issues makes all the difference, you're either really pushing the boundaries of the game and of human ability or you were already in trouble. I for one have played Battle Bakraid with literally a third of a second in input latency and if you know what you're doing it's pretty much the same thing.

[Perikles]

You should check out Zero Gunner 2, that game fits your bill perfectly.

[Plasmo]

The biggest troll ever: https://twitter.com/Locomalito/status/9 ... 8565339136

[Bananamatic]

you're dealing with something that is meant to be incredibly difficult. It seems to me they should give you the full capability of controlling the vehicle so that you can properly master it.

I don't think it's humanly possible to achieve 360 degree precision with the rapid maneuvering the games demand at a high level, it would only introduce inaccuracies and pretty much random noise into your movement, not a full range of control (and especially not on analog sticks, those are already shit for FPS games which are only about getting the crosshair to point X in any way, not about following precise curves from point A to point B)

with only 8 movement directions it's simple to exactly determine where you're going to move while keeping track of everything on the screen else without having to worry about being 2 degrees off and flying into a bullet
those games should be designed for humans, not ultra precise machines

The biggest troll ever: https://twitter.com/Locomalito/status/9 ... 8565339136

the only way this would be valid would be a shmup made for tablets or a touch device, you don't see osu! players using an analog either, it's always mouse vs tablet

[Shepardus]

those games should be designed for humans, not ultra precise machines

Basically this. I can't reliably trace angles to precise degree measurements, nor would I want to play a game that expected me to pay attention to that. Sure it'd technically allow for a higher skill ceiling and whatnot but that's not what I signed up for (I personally don't think precision and timing have much to do with the fun factor of shmups, and chasing the ideal of ultimate precision and mastery is missing the point and misunderstanding human nature). FPS's can get away with analog aiming because 1) with their first-person perspective it'd feel unnatural otherwise, 2) they're usually pretty lenient with the precision required and/or the time you get to aim, especially for single-player games, and 3) for multiplayer games you only need to be better than your opponent, not some bar set by the game itself. You could make analog work for some shmups if you take similar things into consideration, but do realize that it's not a pure gain in controllability and that the sacrifices you would be making don't make sense in all games.

Technically smartphone shmups allow even more control potential with their touchscreen controls than an analog stick, but that only matters if players can actually take advantage of the possibilities in the ways they want. Which people have found is generally not the case when it comes to smartphone shmups: it's hard to retain precision and even harder to avoid uncomfortably cramped fingers.

[Cee]

oh look it's another drtrouserplank troll thread effort, how witty.

[Jeneki]

If you want to play DoDonPachi the way it was meant to be played, pick up the Xbox360 version which controls with Kinect.

[bigbadboaz]

FWIW, I second the Zero Gunner 2 recommendation. Game's fantastic.

[Xer Xian]

@Salve: It's possible that the source of your problem isn't how the game's controls were designed but rather the actual controller you're using. While in theory d-pads are ok, I can't stand them for shmupping, to the point that I greatly preferred using the analog stick back when I was playing Ikaruga on the GC. This may seem pointless since the ship can only travel along 8 axes but you aren't going to notice that while shmupping (and the game is built aroung that as was pointed out already), and if you think about it it's kinda like controlling the micro-lever of a micro-arcade stick (the analog stick of the GC controller even has 8 indentations along the 8 axes)

I'm using an optical stick now, and I like it as well. The lack of microswitches means perfect motion flow but it's on the polar opposite of what many prefer for shmupping (seimitsu sticks with short throw and tight spring), so mind that.

[copy-paster]

So I think this is a serious fault in the design of precisely this type of game. It's this fault that gets me killed sometimes.

No 360 degree movement=bad game design?
You probably enjoy mobile shmups with touch controls if you have mind like that.

Also are the other games made to move a full 360 degrees, I mean any other shmups?

Gradius V,

[PC Engine Fan X!]

For salve,

I've had the rare pleasure/opportunity of playing the original DoDonpachi arcade pcb on a Sega Astro City candy cab at a Japanese game center back in April of 2000. The candy cab sported two digital based arcade sticks (in retrospect, I'm not sure if Sanwa or Seimitsu branded joysticks were installed but I could tell that the Player 1 joystick was already broken in and it felt quite comfortable to use/play with during my time spent with DDP). I simply put in a 50 yen coin, pressed the Start button and was treated to the cool opening intro of DDP at it's finest. Told myself that I'd get an DDP PCB one of these days after giving DDP a spin not once but twice. A few years later, came across a deal for a DDP PCB that was too good to pass up and ended up scoring one to properly play/own for my own personal arcade game PCB stash. The ol' saying of "Good things come to those wait" rings true in the arcade PCB hobby (however long that may be, for some folks, that may be months or years down the road & how deep your monetary pockets are as the arcade PCB hobby can be cheap or expensive as you make it out to be depending on what (rare & obscure) arcade STG pcb titles you set your heart's desire on).

Your proposed control scheme would work just fine with a mobile phone/tablet setup for said shmup (illustrated example: try out any of Cave Co. Ltd.'s STG ports on the iOS platform and you'll see how Cave came up with their own novel touch-screen control scheme but decided to axe Mi-Fi controller entirely for that old-school controller support with a dedicated Bluetooth wireless D-pad or joystick setup) but with those old-school arcade STG pcbs, the "gold-standard" of using the time-honored 8-way digital joystick control scheme (with a square gate) is the preferred way/method to play 'em. This aforementioned arcade control scheme applies to the entire Donpachi series of STG pcbs starting with Donpachi, DoDonpachi, DoDonpachi II: Bee Storm, DoDonpachi Dai-Ou-Jou, DDP-DOJ Black Label, DDP Dai Fukkatsu, DDP Dai Fukkatsu Black Label and concluding with DDP-Sai-Dai-Ou-Jou as the final swan song in the DDP series.

If you ever get the chance to play Williams' classic arcade game title, Bubbles (a non STG game by the way) via emulation/Mame, it has a unique control scheme in that it uses a single 8-way digital joystick but the longer you hold the joystick in the desired direction, the faster your Bubbles character moves. Of course, the initial speed of your player character starts off slowly but eventually gains speed the longer the joystick is pushed & held in any of the 8 directions (this particular digital control scheme wouldn't fare well with DDP, indeed, with it's current digital arcade control scheme in place).

PC Engine Fan X! ^_~

[Goompaolo9500]

I tried that in MAME, how come I reached up to Stage 6 in DDP? Perhaps arrow keys can mean the same purpose but somehow, try not to move the ship that much when dodging danmaku patterns when using joystick or in PC/MAME's case, arrow keys by default.