XRGB-mini Framemeister

[dark1x]

Yeah, I'm pretty certain that something is broken on this Framemeister. Only very specific cables work and even some of the shorter ones exhibit issues. I've put in an order to get another one before they are all gone. It's still usable, I just have to stick with shorter cables (specific ones) so I've re-arranged my setup.

I fear the cause is simple - I often capture video from the Framemeister for the DF Retro series I've been making and tend to just hot-plug and unplug the HDMI cable (swap between TV and the capture switch). I've always used an HDMI port saver, to be fair, but perhaps this has caused issues long term? I dunno.

Frankly I'm not sure grabbing another unit is going to change anything.
I also experienced a weird issue on that front: one small cable (1.5m) wouldn't work at 1080p (black screen) but worked just fine at 720p. This exact cable works perfect at 1080p on everything else I tried it on (htpc, ps3/ps4). It seems the Mini is just picky when it comes to cables, somehow. This was tested making a direct connection to the HDTV too. On the other hand I've got a 12,5m HDMI cable that works perfect with the Mini!

Man, it really is strange then.

The thing that has me confused here is that all of these cables USED to work. I could plug it into my capture equipment with zero problem and it worked. Now? Nearly every cable exhibits these artefacts to various degrees - some are so bad that you can only see a corrupted green image. Weirdly enough, I found one 15ft cable that works perfectly in all modes - no clue why. Even many of my very short cables do not work at all now.

It really doesn't make any sense to me here. I'm happy it's working with at least a couple cables but I don't understand why it no longer works with cables it used to.

[TheShadowRunner]

Have you tried bypassing your capture equipment entirely, and testing all these cables between Mini and TV/monitor directly?
Maybe it's the capture device going bad?

[H6rdc0re]

There's some uninformed criticism sometimes landing in this thread.

For Micomsoft, a small Japanese company manufacturing a product for Japan, marketing their product internationally is near impossible without serious ressources, it's already absolutely awesome that they're actually in contact with people from our community like Fudoh & Co and exchange information, even though from their perspective it's all import and shops nebula with foreign languages n'shit. I don't believe they have any obligation to give us so much support, yet they do.

As for Marqs and partners like Bucko for the OSSC, they are local western actors, of course they have much better presence here. Duh.

And plussing the two machines have different goals, remember the OSSC's first strenght is that it's a clean lag-free multiplier, when the Mini is a complete processor that can also do (excellent) deinterlacing, beating considerably more expensive processors like the DVDO at it.

The Framemeister is better for interlaced sources because it has a framebuffer and can actually do some decent deinterlacing. Also you can rescaled (zoom in) the image meaning you cut away to useless picture info from the source, the NES and Genesis come to mind. However with it's line tripling and new line quadrupling and quintrupling, more source support (sync on green), no inputlag, much lower price and much better support IMHO Micomsoft isn't doing itself any favors. For me personally I won't be looking at Micomsoft their next device but rather the OSSC or it's follow up.

Also 480p false contouring has nothing to with the Marvell QDEO Kyoto G2 as I tested a Philips BDP9500 which also used this chip. With 480p forced it wouldn't exhibit any false contouring atleast none I could notice. Perhaps it's caused by the D-terminal to Component adapter or other onboard chips, I doubt it though. This could be tested when forcing a 480p signal through HDMI and being scaled to 720p or 1080p by the Framemeister.

[Fudoh]

Also 480p false contouring has nothing to with the Marvell QDEO Kyoto G2

it's a problem with the sampling during the initial A/D stage.

[H6rdc0re]

Also 480p false contouring has nothing to with the Marvell QDEO Kyoto G2

it's a problem with the sampling during the initial A/D stage.

Hmm... so no fix possible

[Fudoh]

From my understanding the sampling rates should be programmable.

[Xyga]

@H6rdc0re, again you assume Micomsoft are in direct competition with the OSSC when they aren't exactly.

They produce devices up to mass market modern displays standards, it wouldn't be possible for them to sell a device like the OSSC where the compatibility with displays in all its modes is very random.
For Micomsoft the output has to work, I think they know very well the issues with a design similar to Marqs, that's why they went for a full scaler this generation: because it can be packaged and sold in retail, shown to professionals in electronics shows, etc.

The OSSC is 'scene-birthed-raised' and therefore aimed at customers already aware of what it does, of its non-standardized behaviour and limits, they buy from a webstore and won't demand a refund because one or two or more modes don't display on their TV or monitor, or because it looks pixelated as hell.

[Guspaz]

Direct? No, but the 1000-1500 people who ordered an OSSC still contains a decent number of people who might have ordered a Framemeister had the OSSC not existed. They're still competitors even if their products aren't operating in the same manner or if they're targeting different but overlapping market segments.

[Xyga]

Don't forget the lag, out of those 1000-1500 how many would have never bought a Mini because of the lag ? I'm betting quite a lot (I'm one of them)

I'd call them parallel competitors and they can wave or peek at each other from time-to-time while they travel, but to me their paths are not clashing yet.
It'll be different if Micomsoft come back with a lagless design for an XRGB4 or something.

EDIT: Also I don't know if Micomsoft make a distinction for the portion of their stocks that go overseas through their resellers, but if there are third party in the circuit they can't really.
Is there a note on their sales report saying they're making a loss overseas because of the competition with the OSSC ? I'd be extremely surprised if there was, and if there isn't, they won't react to it.

[Guspaz]

A loss? They could probably sell a single unit overseas and it'd still be a profit, it's not like they're eating the substantial shipping costs. But even if they lost a few hundred potential sales, that's still tends of thousands of dollars, and Micomsoft is a tiny company (IIRC the Framemeister team is just one guy?)

[Xyga]

Sorry bad choice of words I meant to say overseas sales decreasing: my point is they probably don't count those that way at all, they have their eyes on the sales in Japan period. Maybe Taiwan, HK and Korea if they're here too but that's it.
I have no idea how important revenue of the Mini sales is for them but I really doubt they have the capacity to seriously pay attention to what's going on over here (beyond what they already do I mean) and integrate this to their analysis. Even more doubtful they do at all if as you say (and probably right) it's only one product manager in charge of it among other things.
They'll probably make the plans to stop production and slowly clear stocks when the revenue drops to a point they'll judge it's not worth it anywmore, but again that doesn't mean their unofficial/indirect overseas sales and the existence of the OSSC are part of the math.

[Fudoh]

my point is they probably don't count those that way at all, they have their eyes on the sales in Japan period.

At least 75% of all Mini sales are to non-japanese customers. Solaris alones moves a HUGE portion and if you count in eBay sales from japanese sellers and units sold through shopping services 75% are not too much...

I have no idea how important revenue of the Mini sales is for them

The part of the company that's responsible for the Mini has to operate in the plus. If they can't manage that, they'll likely be dissolved. Right now that's no problem, but every project is a risk and the time after the Mini and before a potential successor will be critical.

[Xyga]

Wow well that's still impressive!
I didn't catch their business with Solaris was so important, there's no way to know if you're not more or less an insider anyway.
I was basing my speculation on my own experience with small electronics manufacturers, getting a good distribution channel/partner is indeed golden, but they don't all manage to find one and definitely rarely manage to handle everything by themselves on the international level if they don't have the financial muscle for it.

Well let's hope they make a great new device and still have someone like Solaris to work with.

[Ripthorn]

Guys, where I can buy high quality scart cables?
I really want to get rid of the audio hum/buzz.
I know it's impossible to get rid completely, but would like to reduce by at least 80% the audio noise.
I already bought one from retro_console_accessories and I did not like the quality. Same audio noise as the cheap chinese cables

[axlblazeadam]

Guys, where I can buy high quality scart cables?
I really want to get rid of the audio hum/buzz.
I know it's impossible to get rid completely, but would like to reduce by at least 80% the audio noise.
I already bought one from retro_console_accessories and I did not like the quality. Same audio noise as the cheap chinese cables

Maybe it's not the cable that causes the hum?

[Ripthorn]

Guys, where I can buy high quality scart cables?
I really want to get rid of the audio hum/buzz.
I know it's impossible to get rid completely, but would like to reduce by at least 80% the audio noise.
I already bought one from retro_console_accessories and I did not like the quality. Same audio noise as the cheap chinese cables

Maybe it's not the cable that causes the hum?

What else could it be? PSU? I doubt it.
My AV Famicom has a P2 conector, if I use this audio out, I almost get no audio hum. The same AV Famicom with others scart cables I have I can not say the same

[lechu]

I'm having a bit of an issue with my Framemeister. It's not a huge deal, but I was hoping someone could shed some light.

There's this weird white border around the games on the Framemeister. I know it's because of the Framemeister because it doesn't show up on my PVM. I don't notice it too often, but it's really obvious on my PS2. I'm using FBX's 4X profiles through the RGB port. I've tried re-updating the firmware, but that doesn't work. I'm thinking it may be my television as well (it's an older one) or it could just be due to overscan on the profiles. And again, it's not a big deal. But it's one of those things that if you notice it, you'll never not notice it.

Any thoughts?

http://imgur.com/a/pEFog

[FBX]

I'm having a bit of an issue with my Framemeister. It's not a huge deal, but I was hoping someone could shed some light.

There's this weird white border around the games on the Framemeister. I know it's because of the Framemeister because it doesn't show up on my PVM. I don't notice it too often, but it's really obvious on my PS2. I'm using FBX's 4X profiles through the RGB port. I've tried re-updating the firmware, but that doesn't work. I'm thinking it may be my television as well (it's an older one) or it could just be due to overscan on the profiles. And again, it's not a big deal. But it's one of those things that if you notice it, you'll never not notice it.

Any thoughts?

http://imgur.com/a/pEFog

It's a known problem with the A/D conversion the Framemeister does. It leaves the blank background incredibly noisy around the edges. For a while, I had been designing masked profiles that block these areas of the screen out, but I later got many complaints that the centering/positioning seems to be slightly different from one console and display to the next, and these tightly masked profiles were not framing the graphics properly on other people's setups.

What I've been doing on my current work is to try to minimize the noise in those edge areas by turning the Black_Level up from zero to between 1 and 4 depending on the console, and also turning down the Brightness slightly. This does a pretty good job of hiding the edge noise. Have a look at those two settings in the Color_Set menu and see if it works out for you adjusting them.

[austin532]

I find that setting black level to just 1 impacts the picture on sensitive games so I just leave it at 0.

[FBX]

I find that setting black level to just 1 impacts the picture on sensitive games so I just leave it at 0.

It does, so I try to compensate with a little more gamma. Most consoles you can get away with it though. It all comes down to a trade-off: Do you want to live with the edge noise, or have a slightly altered black level?

[austin532]

It really comes down to what type of game you are playing. For retro games which are bright and colorful, a black level 1 or 2 is fine but once you get into the 3D era of gaming which relies more on calibrated brightness then minor details gets black crushed.

[MetalMilitia]

**Patiently awaiting 720p profiles...**

[FBX]

**Patiently awaiting 720p profiles...**

Okay here's a new profiles package:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/fra ... 8-2017.zip

Code: Select all

What's New:

720 profiles for Neo Geo, Sega Genesis, and Sega Power Base Converter (Genesis Master System mode) have been added, and are generalized to work with any input. The Genesis and Power Base 720 profiles have vertical masking added, so you can easily adjust the positioning using ZOOM_V_POS or ZOOM_H_POS to your liking if the profile's default values don't center properly on your display.


I also started changing the brightness and black levels in all the profiles to compensate for the new universal brightness setting I now have my display set to. I've only done the 8-bit and 16-bit profiles up to this point, but eventually all profiles will be revised with new brightness/black level setting. 

Why this has to be done is rather complicated, but here goes:

Try4ce from "My Life in Gaming" noticed the same thing I did that HDMI modded consoles were appearing too dark when switched over to from using the Framemeister on the same HDMI input. I additionally found my display was programmed to clip the RGB space to "Limited", causing even more color issues on HDMI modded consoles. After reprogramming my display to accept all RGB input as "Full", I then had to find the the most neutral Brightness setting on my display that neither clipped dark colors, nor washed out the picture. As it turns out, the dead center setting of 50/100 ended up being perfectly neutral. After setting my screen to this along with full RGB color space mode, I then found all my Framemeister profiles were much too bright and washed out. So as I stated earlier, I'm now in the slow process of lowering all the brightness settings on my profiles to make the Framemeister look "correct" on my display when switching back and forth between inputs from HDMI modded consoles and the Framemeister.

If you have HDMI modded consoles, you might want to look into this issue yourself. Find out if your display has an option to force "Full" RGB color space and make sure to set it to that. HDMI modded consoles will NOT have proper colors if you don't do this. For example, The Nintendo AVS unit has one of my custom NES palettes built into one of the beta firmware revisions. When I first tried it on my TV, I was confused because the colors looked nothing like the values I set for the palette. This was of course due to my TV forcing "limited" color space. The moment I changed my display to use "Full" RGB color space, my palette instantly looked like it was supposed to. So this is why making sure your display is set to full RGB color space is very important!

I'll continue to work on adding more 720 profiles. I just got bogged down on universalizing the 1080 profiles, as it takes forever to update them to work with any input.

[MetalMilitia]

Super appreciated FBX! Thank you very much!!

[Fudoh]

causing even more color issues on HDMI modded consoles.

sounds a bit like a dangerous generalization. After all there are multiple HDMI signal standards. Do all the HDMI mods available output to full range RGB without any user-selectable options ?

[FBX]

causing even more color issues on HDMI modded consoles.

sounds a bit like a dangerous generalization. After all there are multiple HDMI signal standards. Do all the HDMI mods available output to full range RGB without any user-selectable options ?

You're right in that I don't know if they all do, but two different ones I have both require full range: Nintendo AVS, and UltraHDMI N64.

[onegoodsoul]

**Patiently awaiting 720p profiles...** :lol:

Okay here's a new profiles package:

http://www.firebrandx.com/downloads/fra ... 8-2017.zip

Code: Select all

What's New:

720 profiles for Neo Geo, Sega Genesis, and Sega Power Base Converter (Genesis Master System mode) have been added, and are generalized to work with any input. The Genesis and Power Base 720 profiles have vertical masking added, so you can easily adjust the positioning using ZOOM_V_POS or ZOOM_H_POS to your liking if the profile's default values don't center properly on your display.


I also started changing the brightness and black levels in all the profiles to compensate for the new universal brightness setting I now have my display set to. I've only done the 8-bit and 16-bit profiles up to this point, but eventually all profiles will be revised with new brightness/black level setting. 

Why this has to be done is rather complicated, but here goes:

Try4ce from "My Life in Gaming" noticed the same thing I did that HDMI modded consoles were appearing too dark when switched over to from using the Framemeister on the same HDMI input. I additionally found my display was programmed to clip the RGB space to "Limited", causing even more color issues on HDMI modded consoles. After reprogramming my display to accept all RGB input as "Full", I then had to find the the most neutral Brightness setting on my display that neither clipped dark colors, nor washed out the picture. As it turns out, the dead center setting of 50/100 ended up being perfectly neutral. After setting my screen to this along with full RGB color space mode, I then found all my Framemeister profiles were much too bright and washed out. So as I stated earlier, I'm now in the slow process of lowering all the brightness settings on my profiles to make the Framemeister look "correct" on my display when switching back and forth between inputs from HDMI modded consoles and the Framemeister.

If you have HDMI modded consoles, you might want to look into this issue yourself. Find out if your display has an option to force "Full" RGB color space and make sure to set it to that. HDMI modded consoles will NOT have proper colors if you don't do this. For example, The Nintendo AVS unit has one of my custom NES palettes built into one of the beta firmware revisions. When I first tried it on my TV, I was confused because the colors looked nothing like the values I set for the palette. This was of course due to my TV forcing "limited" color space. The moment I changed my display to use "Full" RGB color space, my palette instantly looked like it was supposed to. So this is why making sure your display is set to full RGB color space is very important!

I'll continue to work on adding more 720 profiles. I just got bogged down on universalizing the 1080 profiles, as it takes forever to update them to work with any input.

THANK YOU FBX!

[Unseen]

Do all the HDMI mods available output to full range RGB without any user-selectable options ?

GCVideo-DVI has a menu option to switch between limited and full range. It's easier on the Cube though because the signal needs to be converted from YCbCr to RGB anyway.

[Ripthorn]

Anyone here know if Wii supports 480p over RGB?
Since the framemeister supports 480p over the RGB input, I would like to connect a Wii and force 480p through RGB Scart.

[onegoodsoul]

Anyone here know if Wii supports 480p over RGB?
Since the framemeister supports 480p over the RGB input, I would like to connect a Wii and force 480p through RGB Scart.

http://www.retrorgb.com/wiirgbvscomponent.html

You are going to need a PAL Wii.